EVERY OE MEMBER SHOULD READ THIS!!!

[gomulletgo]

EVERY OE MEMBER SHOULD READ THIS!!!

One big issue needs resolving and fast. I am going on a 4wd trip with a few friends and after all the bollocks lately over liability, responsibility and so forth, I have decided NOT to post up this trip at this stage. Why you ask? Because there is no way I’m going to organize a trip and have some muppet turn up, drive like Miko Hirvonen for 15 seconds before rolling his truck in the river and drowning and it ends up that I am liable and that I was responsible for said muppet’s well fair even though I had never met that particular muppet before.

Sounds crazy doesn’t it? That it does, but sadly that seems to be where the law sits on the matter. So good law abiding OE members will miss out on this trip just because no-one can trust anyone anymore and everyone can be held accountable. Apparently the law is trying to do away with ACCIDENTS entirely, there are no accidents, things go wrong for a reason, and whoever created that reason is responsible for everything that transpires in that accident. That person will subsequently be sued, prosecuted, castrated and anything else our tremendous legal system can think of.

I am fully aware that in putting up this post many people out there may refrain from posting up trips that they are planning. I think this is sad and it hurts our favourite pastime. But this needed to be said and it equally needs to be resolved. Needless to say I think we should seek legal advice on the matter, I am sure with 1500 members there will no doubt be some lawyers in our midst (driving Rangerovers no doubt). Please post up your opinion if you are a lawyer.

The intention is to create a universal disclaimer that all potential OE trip organizers can attach to the bottom of their trip specific post. I think this should be accessible to all members not just OE assn members as it is the newer members that need to cover their butts the most.

Any input from Mike, Kev, Jerry, Mroffroader etc. would be greatly appreciated (you like that don’t you Mro)

Disclaimer: Anything Mullet has said above should not be taken as fact or fiction, upon reading the above you accept the fact that anything Mullet has said above will not hold up in a court of law. Mullet makes no representations only observations and Mullet will not be held accountable for any harm that is caused by Mullet’s observations.

For further terms and conditions refer to:
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/disclaim.htm

MULLET

[PR]

Good call!!!!! Will be intrested in the outcome????

[mroffroader]

yea me likey i dont understand you (trip leader) have to have a big document to cover your ass incase of a accident!? wata load of shit

[Leithfield]

I am not a lawyer and prefer to drive Toyota's, however have completed several post-grad law papers ...

Unfortunately, we live in a risk averse / blame orientated culture, and New Zealand case law has clearly established precedent that one cannot contract out of responsibility under Health & Safety legislation (frankly, many of the waivers/disclaimers* we often see floating around are not worth the paper they are printed on in a court of law). Thus, it is imperative to demonstrate that one has acted in good faith to ensure that all reasonable efforts have been made to respect mandatory legal obligation.

Prospective trip leaders can significantly strengthen their demonstration of good faith by:
- Posting a descriptive brief of the trip (including difficulty grading)
- Establishing a safe minimum and maximum number of vehicles
- Ensuring that first aid equipment is carried amongst the group
- Establishing the minimum recovery equipment which must be carried
- Ensuring scruntineering of recovery equipment upon assembly
- Having a 'crisis plan'
- Following 'convoy' rules
- Declining attendance to those who fail to respect the above.


Of course, some would consider such measures "P.C." (not getting @ you Grunter - I fully understand what you're saying) and don't want a bar of it - that is their perogative ... and their arse; the acid test remains whether one can demonstrate they acted in good faith to ensure all reasonable efforts were made to ensure safe conduct.


* The literature suggests that two primary advantages of waivers is that they provide for more informed participants, and the participants in turn exercise greater responsibility.

[niblik]

ah leithy... as ever, the calming voice of reason.. :thumleft:

[rokhound]

If everyone thought like this, it would spell the end of our recreation. Without making a judgement call on what you say mullet, (but just quietly, I agree with you!), if we don't look after those who are newer to 4wding, we will never create new people to push on to more extreme 4wd action.
Having said that, I don't like taking out muppets either, But there are different levels of muppets as well, at the different levels of expertise.

My call has always been, if you bring it on a trip, it is 100% your responsibility, and if it goes wrong, we will help you and your truck out, but any damage/repairs are your deal, not mine.
There should be no reason for any third party (the law, recovery boys etc) to be involved at all. Unfortunatly, an injury causing mishap is a totaly different thing again (emergency services, osh etc)

Don't know if this makes any sense, But I'm sure some of you will get what I am trying to convey.

All this PC bullshit has to stop somewhere.

[H2OLOVA]

Having said that, I don't like taking out muppets either, But there are different levels of muppets as well, at the different levels of expertise.

So how come you let Nibby go out with you...............

[kaney]

Having said that, I don't like taking out muppets either, But there are different levels of muppets as well, at the different levels of expertise.

a newbie is only a muppet if the are not willing to listen and learn.

[albundy]

Liethfield is right with what he is saying. The outlne he gives is basically how the tag-along-tours operate and are set up. The "crisis plan" is very essential-why do you think I carry all the shit that I do when I go out 4wheeling. Trip leaders need to be assertive with "muppetts".
Al

[BrentC]

Having said that, I don't like taking out muppets either, But there are different levels of muppets as well, at the different levels of expertise.

And what is expertise

lead a 9 day trip to the Wairarapa

didn't know 90% of those on trip

So I asked about their 4wd experience - most said "I have done a bit"

which meant 20yrs 4wding for one guy and 2 mths (including righting off a 4wd in a roll over) for another.

Now - if I don't know you - I will ask about experience in detail and I will check it through a third party - I don't care how much experience - I just don't like susprises.

[rokhound]

Muppet is not a term used solely for beginners, I know guys who have been 4wding for 20 yrs, got to a level of experience they were happy with, and have never felt the need to go any further. That's cool, until one day they decide to come out and have a play with us, a lot of the day is spent arguing, (because some one with 20 yrs experience thinks they know all there is to know), the rest of the day is spent trying to get a driver and truck through, neither of which are up to the task at hand, hence in my book they are a muppet.
I'm not saying we are know all's either, beacuse quite simply, no one does know everything (sorry Leithfield LOL), there is always lots more to learn, but if you want to go up in steps instead of gradually climbing a slope (with regard to vehicle improvement and ability to use it), I suggest you take a passenger seat for a couple of trips, or let the guys know who are leading the trip, that you may be a wee bit out of your depth.
Hence, the sport continues to grow because we aren't all forced to stagnate at the same level of experience.

You only have to look to Aussie to see how far you can come in a relatively short period of time, What we are calling hardcore in some fields of 4wding, is just a quiet drive in the country to some of them, and those of us here, are trying to gain experience etc of them.

You don't have to keep getting bigger, better or badder either, as I have stated before there are lots of different levels of 4wding to be had, (mud bogging, winch challenge rigs, adventure trucking, back country exploring, rock crawling, sand dune riding). The list is huge, and so is the experience required for each aspect.

Just beacause you have kick arse tyres, shit loads of horsepower, and balls the size of a Moraki boulder, doesn't mean you are going to be better at 4wding that anyone else. In fact that image is the exact oppisite of the one that we are trying to portray to the public.

So it would seem that as a trip leader you have to vett all participants on your trip very carefully, and make sure that those there know what they are up for.(on top of all the other necessary checks for recovery points, safety gear etc that you have to do).

[Leithfield]

Well said that man.

[niblik]

Having said that, I don't like taking out muppets either, But there are different levels of muppets as well, at the different levels of expertise.

So how come you let Nibby go out with you...............

hello pot.. i'm kettle.. :tongue:

[kiwipete]

My angle for what its worth is simply as follows, "All Care, No Responsibility"

[rudrty]

Well said rokhound

i agree with the point you made about having a big truck "DOESNT" make you any better. i have a dcab hilux 35"s Bla bla bla, i dont consider my self to be much good at 4wdriving but on trips people asume i can do things that in many occasions i cant or just dont want to but the whole peer pressure thing often makes people who are happy driving through a puddle drive into a lake an the the damage happiens. Are they a muppet??? to me no they arnt, they just thought they would try sumthing (because thats how you learn) an it all went wrong.
at the end of the day that person who drove into the lake (or what ever situation it was) should hold them self accountable for the damage because they were driving!!!

[Jerry]

Disclaimer: Jerry is not wearing his rep hat, this has been put in the garage under the spare engine, and the all keys have beem wrapped with meat and fed to stinkys dog, any views are not of the ORE Assn committee

yea me likey i dont understand you (trip leader) have to have a big document to cover your ass incase of a accident!? wata load of shit

Mr O...go and ask your old man about OSH, ACC, the large self employed/business premiums he pays and the grief he will get from OSH / ACC if some dumbass eg slips on a banana skin at your lockups which he/she dropped, he may mention the subsequent heavy premium increase which may have an effect of whether you get a $5 warehouse present or a $10 warehouse present this year

Yes all good points, as far as I understand it you need to basically cover yourself as best as possible, it may seem like crap but event organisers and people doing tagalong public trips and events (however casual) have been known to be prosecuted for not ensuring safety.

What next!! will I need to get a safety certificate to operate a BBQ and then how will I provide you with charcoaled sausages....I agree its crazy.

One of the things I am investigating offering some ORE trip leader training which covers ALL these issues, eg dealing with muppets on trips, what to do before, during and after a trip, etc. and you get a nice wee signed certificate and a trip leader sticker for your truck(s) or something, and have this expire like the first aid courses.

It is probable that this may be compoulsry for the ORE Assn trips and the trip leaders who run them, but I feel this would be a good idea to make this avaliable to the non ORE members, who can use this to run safe trips, the idea is that these are not rules that must be obeyed but guidelines and if you want you can call on a ORE rep or trip leader to assist you where avaliable.

This is what I was getting at with the red rocks debacle, we are all here to help each other, lets pool our resources and make it better, my intention was not to put rules in it...just advise and help. we need to run regular training and advanced training to keep us fresh as well.

Thoughts?, who of the non ORE members would be keen to take advantage of this training,

[mud_slinger]

i see wat your gettin at. although i may be new to this i am always prepared to listen watch and learn, if someone has the time of day to show an teach me new things then they fully hav my undivided attention. i wana go far and learn heaps.

[Ryan]

i see wat your gettin at. although i may be new to this i am always prepared to listen watch and learn, if someone has the time of day to show an teach me new things then they fully hav my undivided attention. i wana go far and learn heaps.

i agree, im always up for learnin more.... you have my attention!!

[rudrty]

Schools for fools!!!!

hahahaha sorry had so be said.

[khoshar]

Someone needs to let OSH/ACC know that people that do have someone on a trip that really does think 4x4ing is about flying through everything as fast as possible while in the process having little to none driving experience in general, that the trip leader should in the case of accidental death through of a newbie/muppet/outright idiot be rewarded for helping this person remove themselves from the gene pool, preferably before they've had a chance to breed and unleash more of them on the world...

Right now though I'm off to wrap myself in cotton wool so I can start peeling the spuds while wearing chainmail gloves and steelcaps just incase I drop one.

[Jerry]

Is your potatoe peeling certificate up to date? are you using OSH approved cotton wool, do your gloves and steelcaps have the appropiate warning stickers, have you hired a safety consultant to oversee you peeling the potatoes???

[rokhound]

It is farkin sad, but the sign in your avatar really does sum it all up Jerry. As a species, humans are apparantly to damn thick to think for them selves. Even worse is that this train of thought is more prevelant in NZ than in a lot of other Western countries
Still, at least steel caps haven't been outlawed yet because they cause upteen millions of dollars worth of claims to lower back injury (due to the extra weight and therefore undue strain they place on the wearers legs and back).

[xj]

Speaking of OSH, (and rather off topic, but an amusing sideline) I was on the top of a 5 story building today sorting some edge protection when i notice thhis geezer wandering around on a roof across the road. He's all off balance and tip toeing on the edge, with around a 4mtr drop, then tries to climb off the roof to a concrete block wall, bails on that idea then looks totally lost until a colleague turns up with a ladder.

Chap was wearing a suit, and carried a clipboard.

The roof he was on houses Dept of Labour, Collingwood street, Hamilton. He didnt look to happy when i hollered out to him the question "WHERE'S YA HARNESS AND FALL ARREST!!!!!!!!"

[De-Ranged]

hey Jerry you got me curious as to this training... this sounds like your gona teach us how to lead its easy YOU JUST NEED A LOUD VOICE AND A LARGE STICK

I have several trips planed, some partially orgainised for ORE allready that I will be posting and leading (just need to finish the lemon )
Now if I get a muppet, be they chairman of the local club or a hoon in a $500 truck they will be told in no uncertain terms to toe the line or F#$K OFF! and it will be said in a very loud voice
For most part muppets are easy to spot they run in groups becouse they need an audiance and they enjoy talking themselves up ... more than the rest of us
When I run these trips I'll be talking with those interested before we go so I can work out there level of skill the track level they want AND to see if I want them there so I can make the trips as enjoyable as possible
This is what I'd expect of any trip leader.... and have had in the trips I've taged along on

The legal side of things isn't that bad, I looked into this REAL hard when I was chairman of the local MTB club.... not because of the general riders but for down hillers pretty much all of them were muppets, muppets with no fear!! anyway after talking to a lawyer who specailised in clubs etc we were told that unless there was a finacail gain or the organiser/leader deliberatly put them at risk there was no problems... if you tell them of the risks prior you place the responcability on there shoulders

Oh and Jerry as a business owner who watches the books a little tip your potato peeling safety consultant dosn't need to be there when your doing the job... all they need to do is tick off your safety procedures for doing the job, you can save a bit of coin that way

[PR]

One of the things I am investigating offering some ORE trip leader training which covers ALL these issues, eg dealing with muppets on trips, what to do before, during and after a trip, etc. and you get a nice wee signed certificate and a trip leader sticker for your truck(s) or something, and have this expire like the first aid courses.

Thoughts?, who of the non ORE members would be keen to take advantage of this training,

I would be very intrested in any training as I have minimal experince offroading but do have alot of experince on the road having been in the driving industry for 10 years and done many course trough different companys I have worked for. Please keep me informed on how this procceds

[rokhound]

:? hey Jerry you got me curious as to this training... this sounds like your gona teach us how to lead its easy YOU JUST NEED A LOUD VOICE AND A LARGE STICK

I have several trips planed, some partially orgainised for ORE allready that I will be posting and leading (just need to finish the lemon )
Now if I get a muppet, be they chairman of the local club or a hoon in a $500 truck they will be told in no uncertain terms to toe the line or F#$K OFF! and it will be said in a very loud voice
For most part muppets are easy to spot they run in groups becouse they need an audiance and they enjoy talking themselves up ... more than the rest of us
When I run these trips I'll be talking with those interested before we go so I can work out there level of skill the track level they want AND to see if I want them there so I can make the trips as enjoyable as possible
This is what I'd expect of any trip leader.... and have had in the trips I've taged along on

The legal side of things isn't that bad, I looked into this REAL hard when I was chairman of the local MTB club.... not because of the general riders but for down hillers pretty much all of them were muppets, muppets with no fear!! anyway after talking to a lawyer who specailised in clubs etc we were told that unless there was a finacail gain or the organiser/leader deliberatly put them at risk there was no problems... if you tell them of the risks prior you place the responcability on there shoulders

Oh and Jerry as a business owner who watches the books a little tip your potato peeling safety consultant dosn't need to be there when your doing the job... all they need to do is tick off your safety procedures for doing the job, you can save a bit of coin that way

Exactly, what he said.

[khoshar]

Well that spud peeler is approved by the arthritis foundation so surely they wouldnt send me wrong, as for the steel caps, I just hope I dont drop a spud on them and chop a couple of toes off, you have to wonder about the state of this country when I just about need to sign an indemnity form to cross the road, how does this work when you help someone out at the river and they decide to join in with you for the rest of the trip, do we have to get them to fill out a form first?

[jdeburgh]

Just bear in mind that if someone is offering training then they should be properly qualified to do so. I'd be interested to know who is? I'm not..even though I've had numerous years of experience and been of tracks from easy to where I had to hop out and let someone else drive because I was weak at the knees after looking at the drop off.

It still does not qualify me to train others.

Common sense, now that might be a different story, I can point out some common sense issues to people who might be coming on a trip with me.

Don't lose sight of the fact that it's supposed to be fun, a sport, mostly a non-professional sport, a recreation really. If you make written in concrete rules, then they will be broken at some stage. I've been on trips with different groups and they have published rules, only to see the trip leader say - she'll be right!

In my humble opinion, its better to approach it from a common sense point of view - don't get hooked up in the PC rules stuff. The more people let the fun police have control the more 'we' lose.

Have fun out there! Do it to them before they do it to us!

John

[De-Ranged]

Hair here good comment John

how does this work when you help someone out at the river and they decide to join in with you for the rest of the trip, do we have to get them to fill out a form first?

The way it stands with OSH is they can only get involved if there is financal gain... no gain no worry's
The legal crap comes from a prosicution about 6 yrs ago down in CHCH (bit fuzy on it) some one was killed in a road bike race the local club ran... I'm pretty certain it was a criminal neglagence charge of some sort by the police I don't really remember the details but there was a valid reason for it, about the same time there was a similar thing with the Qwweenstown Motor race don't think they've run it since anyone?

But the way it boils down for us and joe average on a organised trip we must state the risks this is something a good trip leader will do anyway it dosn't make for a good trip if everyone is stressed out couse of a wingger complaining that this isn't what they signed on for
a tag alone down at the river orwhere ever that isn't orgainised they are responsable for there own health

Oh and a parting note the signed indemnety thing, when we talked to the lawyer about it we were told... it only holds marginal value in a neglagence case

Cheers Reece

[Jerry]

Have investigated, there are some 4wd qualifications that you can do, nothing trip leaderish, the thought was to teach people what can happen, how to deal with it and how to deal with muppets....its all common sense really and to check for things like newbies on trips (ie looking after them) and making 200% where you are going you can actually drive