Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End

[lax2wlg]

Right you are bud, 2 spider front GQ. Reason is I got a 4wd Systems voucher, they only make an autolocker for the 2 spider.

Whats the benefit of putting the MK hubs on the GQ case?

[Dirtydog]

Right you are bud, 2 spider front GQ. Reason is I got a 4wd Systems voucher, they only make an autolocker for the 2 spider.

Whats the benefit of putting the MK hubs on the GQ case?

something about bringing all the steering to infront of it, dont know just how good it would actually be though.

Found it

http://4x4panama.com/foro/showthread.php?t=4375

A Bit of light reading but it may come in usefull, there used to be pictures but dont seem to want to load for me now.

[lax2wlg]

Interesting reading cheers, so basically you can make it hi-steer by using facory parts? Gotta love Nissan for interchangeability.

SAS loooong way off

[Dirtydog]

Im starting to think there needs to be a thread with all the parts that are interchangeable listed down, would make it really quite easy.

i was going to use the conversion to get the steering in front, so i could use a low pinion diff in the front, easy 4.6 gears.

[lax2wlg]

Ok some interesting notes on front diff setup.

I've set it up using 4.875 gears from the C200 rear diff & C200 LSD.

To install the 4.8 pinion I used the sleeve from the R200A front pinion then got a small depth spacer machined. This allowed me to get the mesh pattern within factory specs. I used the good old freezer method to seat the pinion bearing.



The C200 LSD centre would not accept the short side stub axle retaining bolt (prob because it was from a RWD application). Talked to slide who suggested extracting the threaded insert from the open R200 and seating it into the LSD side gear. Worked great.

Old C200 insert on right


Was talking to Simon who made a very good point about ring gear rotation. Since the 4.8 R&P are from a rear diff, in theory they may be running in reverse.

This is the actual unit w/C200 LSD & gears setup.


We'll see how it goes. Worst case scenario I'll go to slightly taller V6 gears in both ends.

3x new seals from Seal Imports in Petone - $25. Replaced the pinion bearings but left the side bearings for now. And here she is all setup and & ready to fit.


The hardest part about installing diff drop bushings is getting the old ones out! The factory bushing sleeves can be re-used, and just need to be turned or ground slightly. These bring it down a solid 10-15mm, enough to prevent the R200 case from fouling the sump. And in terms of keeping CV angles safe, a little goes a long way.





Next stage - installation. This WILL be a whore of a job since its such a tight fit, but will definately be worth it.

[kiwipete]

Nice work there fella

[Dirtydog]

Its gunna be awesome if there is no problems, but it doesnt sound like there should'nt be any.

So how much time and money has this taken up so far?

one of my mates is looking at doing something similar to his terrano.

[lax2wlg]

Its gunna be awesome if there is no problems, but it doesnt sound like there should'nt be any.

So how much time and money has this taken up so far?

Yeah I'm pretty confident, I was talking to a gearbox rebuilder in Lower Hutt who runs an S15 Silvia and has years of experience with Nissan diffs/diff setup. He doesn't seem to think its a big deal.

Reverse rotation isn't exactly a new thing...some Dana Spicer diffs are RR and the US spec 91-97 Toyota LandCruiser/Tacoma(Hilux) has reverse rotation front. But in saying that, those gearsets were probably reverse cut from the factory.

The benefit is in eliminating the weaker R180 front diff, traction aids are only limited by $$$ and theres tonnes available for the stout R200.

[Dirtydog]

Its gunna be awesome if there is no problems, but it doesnt sound like there should'nt be any.

So how much time and money has this taken up so far?

The benefit is in eliminating the weaker R180 front diff, traction aids are only limited by $$$ and theres tonnes available for the stout R200.

tis one of the situations where that extra 20mm makes up all the difference

Its a bummer the old 300zx's dont come out with 4.6 gears, id love to see one of those chucked in the front of a terrano, they have 230mm ring gear, and easy access to lsd (albeit fluid controlled not clutch type)

[lax2wlg]

Its a bummer the old 300zx's dont come out with 4.6 gears, id love to see one of those chucked in the front of a terrano, they have 230mm ring gear, and easy access to lsd (albeit fluid controlled not clutch type)

I doubt it would fit & IMO would be an overkill in this application.. best to keep the strength/power/weight ratio optimum. And from what I'm told viscous LSDs aren't so good for offroad use.

If diff gearing becomes a pain in the arse, I'll just throw in whatevers available, 4.3s, 4.6s, 4.1s, whatever... and take it to the next level: 3.5 to 1 reduction transfer gears.

[ArvinSlayer]

Niceee this is good stuff mate

Peace

Arvin

[Dirtydog]

Its a bummer the old 300zx's dont come out with 4.6 gears, id love to see one of those chucked in the front of a terrano, they have 230mm ring gear, and easy access to lsd (albeit fluid controlled not clutch type)

I doubt it would fit & IMO would be an overkill in this application.. best to keep the strength/power/weight ratio optimum. And from what I'm told viscous LSDs aren't so good for offroad use.

If diff gearing becomes a pain in the arse, I'll just throw in whatevers available, 4.3s, 4.6s, 4.1s, whatever... and take it to the next level: 3.5 to 1 reduction transfer gears.

Not overkill if your chucking a vh41 in it

[lax2wlg]

Currently in Chch for a funeral that has literally taken up all week, but last Monday I got it installed - C200 LSD front diff with 4.88 gears. The diff drop has bought it down a lot - the case is now 1" below the crossmember, some bash protection will be added later





Plenty of clearance between engine and case, without a diff drop the engine has to be raised 10mm.



Just enough clearance between rear crossmember and torsion bars.


One of the best parts - CV angles with almost 3" torsion lift :



After bolting everthing down properly I took it for a shakedown with the H233 rear diff still open and the traction improvement was menacing. With the Aussie locker in the back I think it will be a pretty formidable setup.

So final drive mods to the front - 28 spline ball/cage CVs ($50 each +new boots/grease), strong 4 pin C200 LSD centre & 4.88 gears all from my old rear axle, but you see these in Navaras being wrecked for $300 or so. R200A V6 Pathfinder diff case - $75. Misc seals, bearings $100. Labour $0. And I have a 4.88 R180 front left over that I can flick for $150 or so.

[danielbeek]

Hey Josh,
Great write up and very interesting.
I'm a bit ignorant to some of the diff terminology, so got a bit left behind - need to read my Automotive Fundamentals 101 book some more!

My Terrano is a 1995 TD27T, and I know it has a HG48 rear diff (H233?), which I swapped for same ratio LSD model.
How does one identify what model the front diff actually is?
Is it identified on the plaque?
I have about 2" of torsion crank, is it "worth" doing the diff drop using those asymmetric bushes. Any idea how many degrees the CVs change by?
While this may make angles better at 'rest', won't the CVs be put at an even more extreme angle than ever intended when the wheel is forced up to the top bump stop? In this scenario the drivetrain at this corner will be under heaviest load, taking more of the vehicles weight, and probably having most traction as the spring tries it's hardest to force the wheel down. At full droop, the CV angle would be less than standard, but the wheel is probably unloaded, or barely touching the ground.

[lax2wlg]

Hi Daniel thanks, hopefully it will help someone else.
Transaxle code HG48 indicates you have H233B rear/R180 front combo in the desirable 4.875:1 ratio. AFAIK no diesels came with the R200 front diff.

Not sure I fully follow, my understanding is that the assuming bumpstops are kept in place, the diff drop will allow you to 'access' extra downtravel, still within factory specs, that is lost by cranking the torsions to achieve lift. Now if you remove the upper bumpstops, then you are going beyond factory specs.

Superlift control arms have an aggressive bumpstop built in, so I've tried removing the upper frame bumpstops altogether... Nissan CVs are designed to operate up to 35 deg... here is a pic in a ditch with the pass. side fully unloaded and resting on bumpstops. Getting pretty steep, may put some padding in to be safe.

I've been out to redrocks several times to intentionally give the front a good beatdown, no signs of binding or anything though. But if you sat there on a failed hill climb, letting the front bounce at full lock like an idiot, of course somethings eventually going to go. Birfields, UJs, CVs, solid axle, independent, whatever, its all the same basic concept!

The front LSD literally walked the whole vehicle over that Devils Staircase obstacle the other night in the pouring rain with one virtually bald tyre. These Nissan LSDs seem like they're designed for off road use.

Front LSD + Open Rear combo is quite astonishing compared to Open Front + Rear LSD.

But I would rather have the ridiculously big H233 back diff doing most of the work, which is why I'm about to put this in...

[lax2wlg]

TD27 compatible FS5R30A - check. These are so freaking rare and considered the strongest Nissan gearbox before you get into the commercial-duty range, starting with the GQ Patrol's FS5R50A, which is an even bigger again version of this box with cast iron case.

This box was used in Z31 Turbos, R32 GTR, and others. It is still used in production D22 Navaras.

It would be easy to get carried away and do a full rebuild, HD clutch etc, but I've decided I am just going to calm down and install it. It has 150km verified and clean oil, and I already have the later generation OEM clutch anyway.

AFAIK this is the strongest possible drivetrain using 'best of' OEM parts that does not require hardcore custom fab or cert. Here is a summary:

Drivetrain:
-Blacktop oil squirter TD27T
-R30A gearbox, later model TX10 transfer with Safari chain (checked )
-4.88 factory gears
-R200A 8" front diff with clutch LSD, diff drop bushings
-28 spline ball/cage CV joints and V6 steering knuckles
-Warn manual hubs
-H233 9.25" rear with Aussie locker

Suspension:
-Superlift Upper Control Arms
-MOOG/555 HD Balljoints & 2wd steering + dual box mod still to come
-Jeep ZJ +2" rear springs, +3" Rancho rear shocks, Cast iron rear links

Here are some other things I have been doing:

New water pump, OEM, no messing around with quality


New fan, $30 from wrecker, its bigger than the old one and has more aggressive blades. Had to notch the fan shroud slightly:


Dump pipe:

I used 10mm plate & an old gasket as a guide for the bolt holes. Squashed a 3" mandrel bend slightly and voila


Glued a flange on for easy removal when its time to switch turbos:


Reduces to 2.5", then through a rorty muffler and exits just behind the passenger door. The whole exhaust system incl dump cost $270, including new flexi and muffler.


Snorkel - I know a steel one would be better, but $80, come on! Although it came with no template and I had to make up a little bracket which took quite a lot of dicking around.

Moved the airbox over a tad


Isuzu intercooler

Just how I like it, stealthy and OEM looking.



Had the intake body flange machined round to the same diameter as the Isuzu inlet. The other side I have reused factory turbo hoses, joined with a 90 deg. stainless elbow. Still thinking about this. It would be cool to have a more simple turbo flange to reduce pipework. I have a pyro on the way and will soon be playing with the fuel. I notice my fuel screw still has the plastic cap on. Sweet.

Rear storage



The sleeper platform provides an excellent 'off road play area' for me + 1 girlfriend.

Compartments for trail spares

Interior work light wired to an old factory switch


Cubby box accessible from front seat


Rear bar is bolted directly to the frame with 10mm of plate sandwiches either side. Soon I will weld some cool tube to the ends of it.


Next plans for this vehicle are rear quarter chop and sliders, followed by electrical system upgrade (dual alternators, dedicated aux battery pack). Then it will be will be ready for a winch, which with the TJM front bar, should be a pretty easy install. Well easier than installing a snorkel with no template, honestly that took about 10 hours and a lot of coffee!

[passengerpete]

nice work, well laid out truck, I like reading posts like this, when some one has put some thought in to what there trying to achieve. some on board air is a handy thing too.

[hamboy]

That looks awesome bro, makes my workmanship look a bit rough Time to go out and get more OCD with things me thinks

[sibainmud]

Nice work! I can vouch for all the upgrades
Should be a good multi-use truck by the end. You won't regret the gearbox.
Will be fun to peel off boy racers....at least until 2nd gear
Keep it up.

Cheers,

[lax2wlg]

Thanks for the feedback guys, particular to slide,wax,kbjj,passengerpete,sibainmud for tips along the way so far. The diesel engined ones are quite different to the V6s I had been playing with in the US.

Yes multi use is the idea, comfortable touring & self sufficient for 2 people for 2-3 days, but off road ability well above average. I am ok with the IFS if it is DURABLE. It must be strong. I believe the Nissan IFS can be modified to be the most durable of all manufacturers. The front 4-pin LSD has helped tremendously.

EDIT: I believe Nissan IFS can be modified to be at least on par with Mitsubishi Pajero Gen II!

[slide]

Looking real good Josh!
Really shows just how much time and effort you've been putting into your truck. And makes mine look stock .
Ya rear lense bars look good to. They custom made jobbies?

[lax2wlg]

These I made one-off based on some now discontinued ones by a company called Manik, with some modifications. Helps the back end look less bread van and more serious. I am going to add a hex bolt through the outer frame to the body when I do the 1/4 chop.


Factory screws to taillight


If somebody starts reproducing these and you see WDs running around in ChCh with them, hopefully I will get some credit..

For the winch bumper I did a simple cut and shut

With front recovery points sandwiched between frame and bumper mounts

[BogBoy]

Looking good!!

Sounded rather nice even though I heard it at 3am while dealing with faulty wiring on no sleep

[danielbeek]

I'm liking the intercooler mounts - some of the threaded rod installs looks a bit unsteady/agricultural (sorry to those that have gone that way )
Are they custom made, or taken from other vehicles like mistral and adapted? Any chance you made templates (if they were fabricated)
I'm all for OEMness on this sort of thing.

dammit... your talk of LSD for the front has got me browsing trademe for parts to join the large 'to be fitted' pile. This is a sickness or addiction for sure!

[lax2wlg]

They are threaded rod! Just sleeved. On the inlet manifold, there are some spare M10 holes you can go straight into.

Front LSD development.. it is working pretty well on illegally-worn out 31s:


But sometimes it will try to do this:


I have learned that the Navara C200 rear LSD (which I have fitted to front) operates a bit differently to the more common Safari/Terrano H233 LSD:


Apparently these 2 spring plates (one per side) are quite essential to the operation of the LSD. When I was putting it together I noticed mine were cracked. I took them to WAGS who are Nissan-nuts, they had a look, yep, damaged but none available new in the country. They suggested throw it in, and try to source some OEM ones. I found some new OEM ones on nissanpartszone.com. When they arrive in several weeks I will also add a shim to the clutch stack to make it even tighter. I think the front diff center can be removed with every thing else still in place.

I have never had much to do with LSD (the hallucinogen and the traction aid), so this quite interesting to learn.

[zukmeista]

Tearing up the side of a public road isn't really a good look

[lax2wlg]

Right right, Mr Maturity himself...

Its on Shelley Bay Road, its an urban offroad obstacle thats been there forever

And you cant tread more lightly than that little ledge coming up off the road.

Now get back to the sailors, b**ch!

[zukmeista]

So what if other people have been doing it? Doesn't make it right and just adds fuel to the anti-4wd fire. Hardly the safest place to be doing it with cars driving past too. I may have done dumb shit but at least I do it well away from public roads

[lax2wlg]

Okay Mr Zuke-sticles, whatever you say.

I see what you're doing trying to label me as irresponsible 4x4er, and invite controversy etc. Looking at your post history, you are quite a piece of work!

I GET IT!

[Hamz]

mate good to see a bit of isuzu in your terrano. this thread is making me want to get a terrano... just out of curiosity, what is the diameter of your coils?