Another crown wheel and pinion bights the dust

[Batfastard]

This one went driving into the workshop.may be time to go the aftermarket way and 4.1 from 3.5 ratio.the old rover stuff just cant take the extra 100hp and going from 32" to 35" simex

[bryan.daley]

This one went driving into the workshop.may be time to go the aftermarket way and 4.1 from 3.5 ratio.the old rover stuff just cant take the extra 100hp and going from 32" to 35" simex

My old 5L worked rangie with 33's disintegrated the 2 spider diffs with ease. I had to go for maxi-drives to cure this. Even had trouble keeping the A-frame plate which connects to the ball joint straight.

[ice4x4]

You going to go for KAM or Ashcroft? Ashcroft do a 4.37:1 might be a bit better for 35's?

You'll want to "Peg" them as well then hopefully you won't be busting them lol.......

[Batfastard]

kam.the part that pissed me the most was the lack of loyalty just gave it an oil change with some flash oil .fixed the electric fan and was putting it away in a nice warm workshop for the night and bang.

[shortylux]

This blows my mind.
I think maybe Rovers deserve the shit they get?
I can't fathom blowing a diff driving in to the garage, unless you have the most awesome driveway in the world!!!??

[IcedJohnno]

: ... and was putting it away in a nice warm workshop for the night and bang.

Hey Bat
You would not by any chance have been getting the workshop nice and warm by liberal use of the right foot and a sustained loss of traction, would you?


You may want to look up that pegging idea too. I saw on one UK performance Landie site, may have been Ashcroft??, theyshowed this mod and why.
Looks like the pinion gets to deflect otherwise...

May be cheaper & more logical, to fit a set of Saffi axles like a certain couple of youngsters did in Wellie a few years back, Aye Tu's.
Specially if only dropping to 4.1s

[ice4x4]

May be cheaper & more logical, to fit a set of Saffi axles

And lose 25mm ground clearence? Are you mad? Its a trade off I suppose but pegged HD KAM CWP and ARB's are gonna be pretty bulletproof anyway just more $$$$ i'd rather have the ground clearence my self.

[Batfastard]

: ... and was putting it away in a nice warm workshop for the night and bang.

Hey Bat
You would not by any chance have been getting the workshop nice and warm by liberal use of the right foot and a sustained loss of traction, would you?


You may want to look up that pegging idea too. I saw on one UK performance Landie site, may have been Ashcroft??, theyshowed this mod and why.
Looks like the pinion gets to deflect otherwise...

May be cheaper & more logical, to fit a set of Saffi axles like a certain couple of youngsters did in Wellie a few years back, Aye Tu's.

Ok johno u got me i was being mean to it outside the workshop (at times im like a boy in mans underpants,why would i not wanna cut losse like the boy racers in there skyline drift car was )and extra mean to it chasing supercharged lexsu v8s around acouple of weeks ago.i can be alittle wruff with the rangie at times.

Not sure how it will cope with a supercharger
Front is pegged will peg rear when new c&p get fitted.will order a couple of tuff axels in the morn
Specially if only dropping to 4.1s

[IcedJohnno]

Mr FastBat
What revs does the engine like? And where will it be, still similar if and when you blow it? Ie what is your good torque range?

Reason I ask it that my diesel 1KZ is good from around 2000 to 4.2k
I run 31's and 4.3 diffs and the reasonably low transfercase gears.

I know most with Prados go to 4.88s when on 35's, and the petrol guys who have max torque at higher revs go to 5.29s.

So I'm thinking with the sort of revs that the Rover V8's like to do and with what it sounds like, that you have cam-med it further, that you should ideally be lower than 4.1.
Probably more like 5.1!
Maybe you have lower transfer gears than the Toy Prado, but that is not going to help when doing the likes of the 1000, as you would have been in high range...

[lax2wlg]

Funny how wheelspin is one of the things that quickly break 2-pin LR diffs, yet wheelspin is a recognized driving technique that is necessary in many offroad scenarios to maintain momentum (eg mud)

IMO Toyota 80 Series rear, Y60 Safari front for ease of fitment and LONG TERM reliability. Big, burly well designed diffs available cheaply with compatible ratios. That solves all the LR diffs problems - ring gear deflection, side gears grenading, axles breaking when they really shouldnt. Theres no real loss of ground clearance since the Nissan radius arms are a better design that sit higher, plus you can go to town on tyre size without worrying about them grenading. Throw a shimmed Terrano LSD in the front and factory Toyota locker in the back... wowzers, I just made a mess in my trousers.

I experienced the same on a 2 door RR years ago. Pulling out of the driveway, blammo, rear diff gone. Oh right right, Land Rovers don't break diffs, drivers do.

[DieselBoy]

If your interested in some factual information on this thread, read on

What happens with the L.R two spider diff is during excessive wheel spin, in which the spider gears rotate rapidly on their shaft, heat build up between the two components causes the spider gears to weld them selves to the shaft. The shaft which is normally stationary then usually rotates in the carrier housing to the point it causes failure.

Normally lack of the correct lubricant and its condition can lead to this.

The diff normally gives an indication that its welded up the spiders by a warning "bang". Not long after, turning a boring old corner on the tar seal that requires the spiders to rotate a lot, Boom. All over.

Replace the carrier with a L.R 4 spider or even better a locker. No more wheel spin, and it saves our 4WD tracks too. Easy as


Sounds like Batfastard gave his a real hiding before it went, nothing wrong with the torment that took before it cried enough!!!!

[bryan.daley]

Has anyone tried the Ascroft ATB's?

[Batfastard]

I agree with u db it gets a .lot of torment on a very regular basis...

Cant bring my self to fit toyota or nissan diffs to one of my best friends.if i did i would still find my self with problems,i would need to fit crome molly parts .bigger better cvs .sure the nissan or toyota in the ome form are stronger than landrover,but are still not up to the sort of abuse i put reggie through every time i use it.it see's 5 to 6000rpm offten and i drive it very hard.i drive it of the trailer cane it for how ever long its off the trailer than it has a rest till i start it again and cain it some more..no free lunches for reggie

So i will fit bigger better stronger parts,but im a realist and the things ive done in my life tell me that once i got the rear end sorted ,all that hurt from my right foot has to go some where

Twist drive shafts ,so sort that then clutches,then gearboxses so will have to go auto to try and cope with the supercharger ,but i no it does not matter the size of your budget or your skill level there will always be a week spot.even top level race car , boats ,trucks etc brake shit ....

[lax2wlg]

If your interested in some factual information on this thread, read on

WADR (with all due respect) I hope youre not implying my info isn't factual. I said one of the reasons Rover diffs fail is wheelspin, and you explained why so I think we kind of agree.

Normally lack of the correct lubricant and its condition can lead to this.

And the fact that they designed the cross shaft so the two lubricating flats are opposing. Heat from wheelspin exacerbates this, so yes you better have quality oil in there. This could be considered a design flaw since other manufacturers use 2-pin design without issues. eg GQ Patrol front diff: 2-pinion


Apparently V8 90s got factory 4-pin diffs...?

[Ralfie]

If your interested in some factual information on this thread, read on

WADR (with all due respect) I hope youre not implying my info isn't factual. I said one of the reasons Rover diffs fail is wheelspin, and you explained why so I think we kind of agree.

Normally lack of the correct lubricant and its condition can lead to this.

And the fact that they designed the cross shaft so the two lubricating flats are opposing. Heat from wheelspin exacerbates this, so yes you better have quality oil in there. This could be considered a design flaw since other manufacturers use 2-pin design without issues. eg GQ Patrol front diff: 2-pinion

Apparently V8 90s got factory 4-pin diffs...?

Wheel spin doesn't cause the problem, its excessive wheel spin with large diameter tyres. Also excessive wheel spin that is not the correct way or necessary to drive off road. It damages the tracks causing channels for water to do further damage.

Dieselboy is correct in his explanation, he's probably been there a few times himself over the years.

And yes, the early V8 90's had a 4 pinion rear diff and so have a number of other Land Rovers/Range Rovers over the years. When they dropped the Salisbury diff from the rear of Defender 110, the diff was replaced with the short nose rover type and often had a HD version fitted which is a 4-pinion diff.

[lax2wlg]

Wheel spin doesn't cause the problem, its excessive wheel spin with large diameter tyres. Also excessive wheel spin that is not the correct way or necessary to drive off road. It damages the tracks causing channels for water to do further damage.

Only Larger diameter tyres cause breakages- thats horseshit and you know it is.

[IcedJohnno]

^^ Yawn^^

[lax2wlg]

^^ 'Must be the medication' ^^
Nice try

Ok now I'm out

[ice4x4]

Theres no real loss of ground clearance since the Nissan radius arms are a better design that sit higher

I'm pretty sure that ground clearance is measured from the lowest point on the vehicle to the ground. The radius arms are neither here nor there. Now nissans having a diff head the size of the moon then by fitting them to a Land Rover you are going to lose ground clearance.

It is not just spinning wheels that blows the diffs, it is spinning one wheel on an axle if it lifts the ground for instance and you floor it sending all the power through to that one wheel. That's when the spider gears spin up and lose lubrication.

[zukmeista]

^^ Yawn^^

X2, grow up already.

[UBZ]

I realize you have something personal against me, I dont know why but it doesnt worry me - I just look at your 'most active topic' to see what type of sarcastic, pessimist you are.

maybe , just maybe its because every time there is a LR thread , you bag the shit out of them ,regularly advising people that the only option is to replace the diffs , replace the gearbox , replace the engine etc etc, so who's the sarcastic pessimist ???

Rant over . I lurve my Defender . IMHO you cant get a better offroad platform to work with . yes it has quirks , but what truck doesn't .....
LR's are like ladies , if you treat them with respect and listen to what they are telling you , they don't give you greif .

[lax2wlg]

Oh god I'm back again, I never said replace the gbox or engine!!
Look I’m sorry if youre upset about the Reliability thread, I understand they are a very emotional vehicle.

As you know automotive engineering is all about the insides, the small details that all work to deliver a complete package. Thats the buzz for me, when you study it you see machines from many different origins. Many different designs, ideas, methods etc. Through knowledge & experience you form an opinion based largely on technical construction, rather than emotional attachment or perhaps some sort of patriotic attachment. You get to see fascinating technical solutions, and also horrible ones.

eg;
Clever - suspension design of the RRC/Disco platform
Not so clever - when the adopted the Salisbury diff they downsized the axles by almost 1/3 in diameter and reduced the spline count from Danas min. spec of 31 to 24. An unnecessarily big diff that compromises clearance & adds weight, with undersized axles!

The technical fact remains that the Rover differential is a car unit and was designed for road cars. Its old fashioned in its design but theres nothing wrong with that - so are many Danas.

We can debate what is wheelspin vs excessive wheelspin but surely agree that off road environments can be unpredictable, and you need to be able to depend on the drivetrain to take a punishment if necessary. eg you suddenly hit a patch of soft sand in the middle of nowhere with 6 people on board.The only way through is throttle, you're going to be spinning wheels. You need to depend that your gear is going to get you through.

I'm not saying the Rover diff won’t get you through but it obviously has several known failure points that may need to be addressed for long term reliability.

You know Ralfie and zukmeista have been on my case since I joined this site. Alls I ever did was hand his arse back to him for trying to hijack an information thread I made on how to modify the front of your Terrano.

But its a negative vibe, people dont pay compliments or leave feedback, just take the info, and theres a tall poppy syndrome problem. Only pipe up when theres something negative to say, marginalize the guys thats trying to help out. I realize I can be pretty brutal about some of the technical realities of LR products, of course I will defend myself, but I always try to be cordial, compliment good people and foster some semblance of a ‘community feeling’. Doesnt seem to work though.

[DieselBoy]

Keep digging, this is good


(BTW another potentially useful thread bites the dust in the space of a week )

Time for some Land Rover porn.

Here's a couple of stock standard Disco 2s playing in the mud

[mike]

Actually this is one of the better heated discussions. No one has thrown their toys yet and with good points on both sides.

Good to know about the welding spider gears on their shafts, didnt know that one DB.

[Batfastard]

Was thinking of dropping diff ratio useing cam crownwheel and pinion,thought 4.1 but they also do a 4.75 will 4.75 be two low .but it would enable me to pull 3rd and forth lowbox alot more under load. But im worrying that it will be too low in high box for events like t100 and other off road raceing events.anyone got any thoughts

[Mudhog]

Series trucks run 4.75 crown wheel and pinion, cheaper swap

[LR90NZ]

Was thinking of dropping diff ratio useing cam crownwheel and pinion,thought 4.1 but they also do a 4.75 will 4.75 be two low .but it would enable me to pull 3rd and forth lowbox alot more under load. But im worrying that it will be too low in high box for events like t100 and other off road raceing events.anyone got any thoughts

Talk to Darinz co-driver, John R. His 300tdi Discovery on 35's is running 4.75's and he admits it was the wrong choice (too low) and that he should have opted for 4.1's.

[lax2wlg]

Series trucks run 4.75 crown wheel and pinion, cheaper swap

My parts shelf tends to agree

[LR90NZ]

eg;
Clever - suspension design of the RRC/Disco platform
Not so clever - when the adopted the Salisbury diff they downsized the axles by almost 1/3 in diameter and reduced the spline count from Danas min. spec of 31 to 24. An unnecessarily big diff that compromises clearance & adds weight, with undersized axles!

The technical fact remains that the Rover differential is a car unit and was designed for road cars. Its old fashioned in its design but theres nothing wrong with that - so are many Danas.

Not sure what you mean when you say they 'downsized the axles" with the Salisbury. The Salisbury axles are larger than the 'rover' type and are stronger. Or are you referring to the older ENV type diff?

You are confusing the issues here by talking stuff from 50-60 years ago. Times and vehicle components have changed. The Salisbury diff hasn't been used in LR products for 12-13 years now.
While the old LR 10 spline axles may have broken on a regular basis with abuse off road back in 60-70's, once the 80 & 90's's came so did a change in spline count and strength of the axles. Seldom, if ever, did you ever hear of some one breaking a Salisbury axle.

As for the Salisbury diff compromising clearance and adding excess weight, yes they do but you want to swap rover diff's for Nissan and Toyota which are actually larger and less clearance than the Salisbury.
Doesn't make sense to go through all that work and cost of certification for no gain.

[LR90NZ]

Series trucks run 4.75 crown wheel and pinion, cheaper swap

Not necessarily. They are imperial measurements and are a tight fit into the later metric diff housings. Also you then need to change the side gears to 24 spline or if fitting an air locker the carrier bearings are different (that imperial/metric problem again) so it becomes an expensive exercise. We went down this road with Project-re-arrange although we used 3.9 diffs.