Auto gearbox prejudice

[lax2wlg]

Christ, lighten up.


Thanks for the dictionary definitions, but you still haven't explained which parts of my post were not facts.
But Allow me to clarify the potentially dubious parts of my previous post.

"Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission."
FACT - A manual transmission creates a direct link between engine torque and final drive. Because each gear in a MT has a numerical ratio, this allows the operator maximum control over power transmission.

"A manual transmission requires a more skilled operator."
Maybe more skilled is not the right word but it definately requires more operator engagement.

The rest I think is pretty self explanatory.
Because the wheel speed will increase with the engine speed, it may seem like better low speed crawl control, but the AT will give you 'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.

It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.
Auto transmissions suck engine power.
Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking. (read engine braking, downhill control)
Auto transmissions cannot be tow started in the event of electrical failure.
A manual transmission harmonizes the operator with the drivetrain and gives total 'feel' of what is going on underneath you.
A manual transmission allows the operator to utilise 100% of the torque available and obtain maximum benefits from his differential/transfer reduction gearing selection.

Personally I see the benefits in both a MT or an AT with manual valve body. Interesting contributions have been made by crash, mudlva, churchill etc, but I still don't see what I have listed are not just facts. I dont see how it is about being righteous as much as it is to do with just... facts.

[zukmeista]

[mudlva]

back to topic here lads

auto all the way

learn to left foot brake

torque converter allows supper slow crawling with heaps of control

if you can manuelise even better but not the end of the world if you cant

auto will not substitute for poor driving skills although it will help cover it up better

autos do not have water and mud stuck between clutch issues whilst sitting in bogs waiting for winch wench to sort out your recovery string

[kbushnz]

Well what an interesting thread this turned out to be.
I drive an auto off road. And a manual for a daily driver. Forgetting all the technical stuff it comes down to personal choice. Each have different charachteristics but at the end of the day its what YOU like. And there is no right or wrong.
I suggest you go on a trip with a local club or like minded forum members and have a drive of each.
Note the above is my personal opinion. Any facts that are present are there by coincidence or accident.

[Checkerhead]

Note the above is my personal opinion. Any facts that are present are there by coincidence or accident.

[Crash bandicoot]

[churchill]

I dunno if I believe the whole control thing Lax as the manual transmission is more complicated to use and the more complicated things are to use the more operator skill is required meaning only the skilled can use it well. Imagine if we bought back mixture enrichment and timing advance, you would have more control over the vehicle but is that a good thing? Automation is great at removing human error!

All your other points are valid and I suppose it comes down to a personal decison.

[J_Dub]

Christ, lighten up.


Thanks for the dictionary definitions, but you still haven't explained which parts of my post were not facts.
But Allow me to clarify the potentially dubious parts of my previous post.

"Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission."
FACT - A manual transmission creates a direct link between engine torque and final drive. Because each gear in a MT has a numerical ratio, this allows the operator maximum control over power transmission.

"A manual transmission requires a more skilled operator."
Maybe more skilled is not the right word but it definately requires more operator engagement.

The rest I think is pretty self explanatory.
Because the wheel speed will increase with the engine speed, it may seem like better low speed crawl control, but the AT will give you 'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.

It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.
Auto transmissions suck engine power.
Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking. (read engine braking, downhill control)
Auto transmissions cannot be tow started in the event of electrical failure.
A manual transmission harmonizes the operator with the drivetrain and gives total 'feel' of what is going on underneath you.
A manual transmission allows the operator to utilise 100% of the torque available and obtain maximum benefits from his differential/transfer reduction gearing selection.

Personally I see the benefits in both a MT or an AT with manual valve body. Interesting contributions have been made by crash, mudlva, churchill etc, but I still don't see what I have listed are not just facts. I dont see how it is about being righteous as much as it is to do with just... facts.

Look here "Mr factual" your facts may be facts, well done, you know lots and lots, gold star for you.

But fact of the matter is, for "real world feel" for the driver sitting in his truck bouncing around the bush, covered in mud with dirty ol mud tyres, your facts don't mean shit.. To the average Joe blogs your facts are completely irrelevant, and will never know the small technical differences between an auto and a manual transferring power to the wheels.

This is just another Ford vs Holden. Beam axle vs ifs. Nissan vs Toyota debate.

To the original poster, pick a truck you like, then take an auto and a manual for a drive.. See which ever 1 takes your fancy.. There is no right or wrong, better or worse answer.

[lax2wlg]

Never mind.

Its just Kiwi male culture.

Yep, enjoy your redneck mud bogging.

[derk]

these pissing contests always make entertaining reading keep it up boys

[Gyxx]

Heh heh heh ...

If we want to get into the whole "auto vs manual" argument we'll be here until the cows come home and you'll find equally knowledgeable and experienced people opining strongly on both sides of the argument.

Ever get the feeling this is turning into one of those threads where the original poster probably gave up and went home about twelve posts ago ?

[catalystracing]

Yup, like the Sold axle vs IFS one that went nuts awhile back...
Still, school holidays are nearly over

[The WEHI]

you guy's should take some of your Facts to Pirate and see how long they last over there,

Only thing that matter's is you enjoy what you drive!

[TJ]

:mrgreen: you guy's should take some of your Facts to Pirate and see how long they last over there,

Only thing that matter's is you enjoy what you drive!

I already do enjoy what I drive, thats why i bought them after test driving them....

I only relayed my opinions and personal experiences driving more than just Jeeps. The Jeep bug only bit me 20 years ago, and I have been alive / driving a lot longer than that including 4x4s and V8s with both manual and auto boxes.

To the original poster, don't be put off by people saying you should have bought something else other than what you bought. Just enjoy it once you have decided on one.

[TJ]

Yup, like the Sold axle vs IFS one that went nuts awhile back...
Still, school holidays are nearly over

Auto vs Manual vs CVT (don't even think)
Diesel vs Petrol
Turbo vs Supercharger
Solid vs IFS
32 vs 33+
Simex vs Silverstone vs Muds
Open vs Autolockers vs Manual Lockers (ARB vs eLockers)
Auto hubs vs Manual hubs

All interesting topics for discussion.

If OP goes through the list and picks what his preferences are, it would be easier to narrow down what makes and models are on his list. Question around lockers is more around whether they are even available for that model/year. Just solid vs IFS would narrow down the list very quickly on newer vehicles.

[derk]

^^^^
everyone already knows Auto, Petrol, Supercharger, Solid axle, 33+, Silverstone, Selectable locker and manual hubs is the only choice you forgot to mention injected v8 and the more cubes the better in that list

[callum007]

A terrano drivers narrow mindedness again maybe?

Changed my trials vehicle to auto few years back, best thing I did aside from adding cylinders. My daily truck is a Manual and wouldn't change it. Horses for courses.
Left shoe Vs. Right shoe debate again!

[smurf182]

Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking. (read engine braking, downhill control)

This is not correct.

I know you are keen on facts - the A440 provides engine braking with the shifter in the 2 and L positions, I know this because of 1) all the research I did when I electronically manualised it and 2) I sure as #### didn't freewheel at great speed down every hill when I took my old Surf offroad.

It would be true to say "some autos don't provide as much engine braking as manual transmissions"

[Crash bandicoot]

farkin ran outta popcorn.

[catalystracing]

farkin ran outta popcorn.

[LOLYF]

I know you are keen on facts - the A440 provides engine braking with the shifter in the 2 and L positions, I know this because of 1) all the research I did when I electronically manualised it and 2) I sure as #### didn't freewheel at great speed down every hill when I took my old Surf offroad.

But surfs don't have A440's ??

[mudlva]

I know you are keen on facts - the A440 provides engine braking with the shifter in the 2 and L positions, I know this because of 1) all the research I did when I electronically manualised it and 2) I sure as #### didn't freewheel at great speed down every hill when I took my old Surf offroad.

But surfs don't have A440's ??

think he meant A340

[mudlva]

righto now that all the chest beating has subsided...

i can recommend the 4ltr v6 prado mid 2000's

v6 has shiit loads of booth torque and hp

come std on 17" rims running 31" tyres

could easily turn 33's will need to look at front guards for fouling thou

auto holds the gears well when shifting down for engine braking

plenty of a/m gear around to dress them up

we picked ours up for less than $30k

would convert to a tour'ier quite well

fit a tranny cooler and it will tow a caravan or transporter easily

downside, no cruise control thats it

[Big]

.. auto is my preference..

[DieselBoy]

Interesting thread.

It's a real horses for courses, and personal preference debate. There are pros and cons to both. I'm firmly in the manual camp. There is one main reason for that, and that reason is heat.

Autos are very very sensitive to any kind of heat.

Heat very rapidly destroys an Auto. Above a certain temperature, the oil starts to burn. The carbon that forms as a result of the oil starting to burn rapidly destroys the trans from the inside out.

Heat is created any time the torque converter is transmitting drive from the engine to the trans, apart from when lock up is engaged. Lockup usually only happens under cruise conditions.

If your batteling through deep sand, towing a load up a long hill, running big tyres on standard gearing and many other factors can create extcessive heat. Think about a trip to Wellington with a trailer on, or the hills out of Blenheim heading south, climbing the Kilmog out of Dunedin or heading to Napier over the ranges with your truck loaded on big tyres. Add the outside air temperature to it, and a slightly clogged cooler on your poorly maintained jap import and the oil starts to toast nicely.

As I said before, the heat is created by your foot telling the engine to pump at max power, and the torque converter is churning away trying to transmit that power through the transmission oil to the transmission input shaft. It's that churning of oil in the torque converter that creates the heat. The more power your put through it, the harder you push the engine, the more load you put the vehicle under, the more heat that torque converter creates.



You don't have those issues with a manual trans. You still get heat, but that heat doesn't compare to that of an auto.

Then there's the new Autos that rely on electronics to work. Go dunk that in the river or bog for 10mins while you wait for recovery and see how that goes!!! (If your engine electrics still work ) I know manual Safaris, Defenders, Discos and Rangies have sealable bell housings with removable plugs for water and deep mud work.

On that note my vote is that a manual is generally a stronger and much more durable unit than an Auto and better suited to heavy work and extreme environments.

Autos are good round town and for competition Trials, but for everything else that requires durability, manuals are still king.

Purely my opinion of course, having owned and operated a manual surf, an auto terrano, a manual safari, an auto 80 series, a manual Rangie, an Auto Prado and the manual Defender. Not to forget the comp trucks, Thunderguts was a full manuallised T400 Auto, Weapon was manual. Weapon would have been awesome with the right manuallised auto, always wished i could change up through the gears on hill climbs rather than sitting on the limiter in 3rd low

So on topic, manual if you can get it, especially if your going to be towing or making it work hard.

[imac]

This has been awesome, thanks everyone for your replies, suggestions and jousting.
I think bottom line I may be well unreasonably prejudiced and I neeed to test drive some modern autos and the manual equivalent if it exists.
I think grudgingly an auto will be fine..
Im not gonna ask a what truck question though! That really is a philosophical question.
Thanks
Mac