Turboing a TD42

[dvk-kp]

This has probly been covered a million times but searching for turbo safari or td42 brings up heaps!

Well Friday nights mission is to turbo my friends Safari, he has a turbo kit and all associated bits and pieces, my question is what's safe to go to with a stock injector pump boost wise? He's got a boost gauge and an egt gauge so what's some safe numbers we can start with?

He's going to get the pump modified later on down the track but pretty sure that's not cheap! Truck will have a large top mount intercooler with fans pulling thru it. 3" intake to turbo, 3" right to the engine, and a full 3" exhaust.

Anything we can adjust on the injector pump to start off with?

Any pointers will be great, I know many of you's will know this stuff like the back of your hand!

[tweake]

first thing is which version of the TD42 does he have.

i'm a bit rusty but i think its the black top atmo motor that is the weaker one. generally keep boost under 15psi and intercool it.

what turbo are you putting on?
really the turbo needs to match the fueling.
with the good kits its best to get the injection pump that matches the kit.

[dvk-kp]

It's a 1988 Safari, pretty sure it's a silver top.

The turbo is a T04e I'm pretty sure, Chinese as F**k but it's what he's got. The kit came with a nice solid cast iron manifold which is the main reason he brought it. Turbo will get replaced with something more suitable WHEN it dies

As for injector pump, that will be modified probly by Autocraft in Palmy at a later date. Just wanting to get it running some boost at this stage... Lean on it a bit but nothing dangerous.

What's a safe number for EGTs in this situation?

[tweake]

depends on how bad the turbo.
egt's no more than 700c pre turbo, which is conservative but you may want to keep it fairly low if your not running a boost comp and turbo is unknown.

try and find where he got the kit from. hopefully its already set at a reasonable boost level.
there no point pushing big boost if you don't have the fueling setup for it.

[dvk-kp]

Cool thanks, will keep it low, just want to run more then 6ish... Hoping 10-14 would be fine.

Turbo has an internal wastegate so figure it will be around 6 from factory, have installed a boost tap tho so we can adjust it. Hope it goes well for us

[slidenyo]

got a 1hdt pump an injectors on mine even with only 450 c pre turbo and 16-22 afr'

[coxsy]

just note ,when pulling the pump off watch the wood rough key doesn't drop in to the sump

[dvk-kp]

got a 1hdt pump an injectors on mine even with only 450 c pre turbo and 16-22 afr'

Why did you go to that pump? And how hard was it to fit?

Will keep in mind about the key! Don't want to drop that in the sump.

The whole job went well, started at 7pm on Friday night and was pretty much all done by 3am Saturday. Hardest part was taking the egr gear off! What a pain in the ass!

And we were a bit to ambitious with our top mount IC so went without one for now, will go to a water to air later on.

Goes well, runs 10psi and egt is no more then 340 degrees under full load. Next step after doing lots of reading online is to turn up the fuel until we run out of idle adjustment and add boost till EGTs are at 550 max. All in little steps of course! Wish us luck!

[slidenyo]

1hdt pump has 12mm element an more aggressive camplate. guts needs swapping into a td42 pump housing. remember as you increase fuel pressure pump timing needs retarding as you will be cracking the injectors open earlier.

[dvk-kp]

Is that pretty much what is achieved by having someone modify the factory pump with bigger plunger and a boost compensator? Is it straight forward, could it be done at home? Or need special tools?

As for fuel pressure, is that related to the modded pump or what we plan to do? How do you retard and measure the pump timing?

Thanks for your help.

[slidenyo]

need a dial gauge an adapter up the pumps arse. fuel pressure and timing are directly related unless you reset injector crack pressure with every pump pressure increase.
ive done my own pumps before but given the potential for a catastrophic failure i got the shop to build mine along with uprated injectors etc the bigger 1hdt camplate throwz the 12mm piston further giving a bigger squirt of fuel down the line and cracking the injector open for longer.

[tweake]

Is that pretty much what is achieved by having someone modify the factory pump with bigger plunger and a boost compensator? Is it straight forward, could it be done at home? Or need special tools?

As for fuel pressure, is that related to the modded pump or what we plan to do? How do you retard and measure the pump timing?

Thanks for your help.

its not a home job.
even if you put the bits in tuning the internal settings requires a test bench. and then you have to know what to set them for.

if you want good power its better to buy a well sorted setup where someones done all the hard work already.
the other catch is injection pump really wants to be setup for the turbo your using.
this is why people go buy turbo pump combo's.

just be aware that when your winding the fuel up on the injection pump your also advancing the timing as well. not to bad if the pumps worn and running a bit retarded. but if its a good pump thats already running fairly advanced timing you can run into issues.

[tweake]

i think slidenyo is using the wrong terms.
its not fuel pressure its fuel flow. bigger plunger allows you to squirt more volume of fuel in.
adjusting the pump adjusts the volume of fuel injected not pressure.

there is another section of the pump which generates low fuel pressure which is used to control the pump timing.

don't worry about injectors. most use stock injectors right up to massive power levels.
upgraded injectors are tricky as you can add to much fuel to quickly which can melt pistons.

[dvk-kp]

Cool thanks guys, definatly out of our league for sure. Will turn the pump up a bit to get her going a bit better but will keep it conservative. Aim for 15 psi and 500-550 degrees.

Will add an intercooler later on and also probly change the turbo, it's quite slow to spool up. Internet reading suggests a td05-16g is ideal and YouTube videos show excellent boost response with that.

[dvk-kp]

upgraded injectors are tricky as you can add to much fuel to quickly which can melt pistons.

Now we definatly want to avoid that!

Will leave all fuel pump mods for the experts, will be better with the td05 as they will know exactly what it is... Much better then the Chinese "t04e"

[tweake]

Cool thanks guys, definatly out of our league for sure. Will turn the pump up a bit to get her going a bit better but will keep it conservative. Aim for 15 psi and 500-550 degrees.

Will add an intercooler later on and also probly change the turbo, it's quite slow to spool up. Internet reading suggests a td05-16g is ideal and YouTube videos show excellent boost response with that.

500-550c after turbo is quite high especially for a non-boost compensated pump.
pays to keep it conservative. without a boost comp its really easy to stomp on the gas and overfuel, especially if turbo is a bit laggy.

pre- turbo egt is much more accurate as after turbo is a bit of a guess especially with unkown turbo's.


what turbo etc really depends on what sort of power you want and to what extent do you want to do other mods.
eg the intake manifold becomes a limiting factor at some point. so does intake tubing and air filter setup.

easy way is to read through the patrol forum and see what they use up to the level you want, then buy in the turbo and pump combo that suits.

[slidenyo]

fuel pressure adjustment is fairly relative to flow adjustment tweake, more pressure a pump would relate to more flow past cracked injector would it not?

[tweake]

fuel pressure adjustment is fairly relative to flow adjustment tweake, more pressure a pump would relate to more flow past cracked injector would it not?

except the adjustment screw doesn't change injection pressure or flow. it only changes maximum injection amount which only applies at max throttle.

[dvk-kp]

Cool thanks guys, definatly out of our league for sure. Will turn the pump up a bit to get her going a bit better but will keep it conservative. Aim for 15 psi and 500-550 degrees.

Will add an intercooler later on and also probly change the turbo, it's quite slow to spool up. Internet reading suggests a td05-16g is ideal and YouTube videos show excellent boost response with that.

500-550c after turbo is quite high especially for a non-boost compensated pump.
pays to keep it conservative. without a boost comp its really easy to stomp on the gas and overfuel, especially if turbo is a bit laggy.

pre- turbo egt is much more accurate as after turbo is a bit of a guess especially with unkown turbo's.


what turbo etc really depends on what sort of power you want and to what extent do you want to do other mods.
eg the intake manifold becomes a limiting factor at some point. so does intake tubing and air filter setup.

easy way is to read through the patrol forum and see what they use up to the level you want, then buy in the turbo and pump combo that suits.

500-550 will be pre turbo. The egt sensor is in the manifold.

As for desired power... End goal will be round 25ish with good intercooler and modded fuel pump etc. And now possibly an intake manifold

[tweake]

500-550 will be pre turbo. The egt sensor is in the manifold.

As for desired power... End goal will be round 25ish with good intercooler and modded fuel pump etc. And now possibly an intake manifold

pre turbo you should be fine around 600-700c.

if your after 25lb boost plus fuel to match your looking at decent turbo and pump combo, modded manifold, decent ic, intake etc (like slidenyo pic), exhaust, probably lift pumps etc. probably a decent clutch as well.
Twodiffs one is a good example. theres a few of those setups running around.
much better to get a sorted combo than try to mix and match your own.

[dvk-kp]

That's good then. 550 should be safe as.

Yea that will be the goal, it's got a full 3" exhaust, really good flow, but will that be big enough for that level?

As for matched turbo and pump, I was working on the theory that some place like Autocraft in palmy would be able to modify the pump to match what was on the truck and turn the wick up. Eg, give them the truck with a td05 turbo, good water to air IC, 4" intake with good filter setup to snorkel, 3" exhaust, intake manifold, etc etc. all running and going well.

Do all that fabrication over time as money allows and then pay them to tune it to work well?

[tweake]

That's good then. 550 should be safe as.

Yea that will be the goal, it's got a full 3" exhaust, really good flow, but will that be big enough for that level?

you will probably find 550c is a very small adjustment. also if the turbo is a bit big you actually need to poke some fuel in just to get the turbo to wind up. tho if its on the small side keeping the fuel down is a good idea.
3" should be ok by mem. not sure on dump pipe.

As for matched turbo and pump, I was working on the theory that some place like Autocraft in palmy would be able to modify the pump to match what was on the truck and turn the wick up. Eg, give them the truck with a td05 turbo, good water to air IC, 4" intake with good filter setup to snorkel, 3" exhaust, intake manifold, etc etc. all running and going well.

Do all that fabrication over time as money allows and then pay them to tune it to work well?

no.

unless they actually have a decent working setup then no. you need to find someone who has a matched setup, not a company that is going to need the vehicle for years to do R&D to be able to make a decent setup. theres a ton of little tricks to get them to perform well.

what your buying with a well sorted setup is the many many years of R&D they have put into the setup's.
thats why those crowds setups perform so darn well.

theres been a few on here with 30-40psi boost setups that make half the power of the good 20-25psi setups.
have a good read through the patrol forums and get some idea why they do the setups the way they do.

[dvk-kp]

you will probably find 550c is a very small adjustment. also if the turbo is a bit big you actually need to poke some fuel in just to get the turbo to wind up. tho if its on the small side keeping the fuel down is a good idea.
3" should be ok by mem. not sure on dump pipe.

That's good to know, was talking with the owner today and were discussing if more fuel would make it spool up quicker. Thought it would.

no.

unless they actually have a decent working setup then no. you need to find someone who has a matched setup, not a company that is going to need the vehicle for years to do R&D to be able to make a decent setup. theres a ton of little tricks to get them to perform well.

what your buying with a well sorted setup is the many many years of R&D they have put into the setup's.
thats why those crowds setups perform so darn well.

theres been a few on here with 30-40psi boost setups that make half the power of the good 20-25psi setups.
have a good read through the patrol forums and get some idea why they do the setups the way they do.

Ah I'm with you now. Your talking about a complete off the shelf kit, ready to bolt on including the injector pump correct? Makes sense but also very expensive I'd imagine.

Do you not think the usual "modified injector pump, 12mm plunger, and added boost compensator" is the way to go? If not, why so? This was what I was thinking. I thought that was the way most people went about it.

We aren't after the best of the best, bees knees type stuff, just after "the next step" so to speak. A bit more then just putting the turbo on and she'll be right at 6psi. We all love to tinker and modify, but don't have the money to go out and buy something ready to rock.

This is all down the track obviously, she's only been boosting for a week

Thanks again

[tweake]

Ah I'm with you now. Your talking about a complete off the shelf kit, ready to bolt on including the injector pump correct? Makes sense but also very expensive I'd imagine.

Do you not think the usual "modified injector pump, 12mm plunger, and added boost compensator" is the way to go? If not, why so? This was what I was thinking. I thought that was the way most people went about it.

We aren't after the best of the best, bees knees type stuff, just after "the next step" so to speak. A bit more then just putting the turbo on and she'll be right at 6psi. We all love to tinker and modify, but don't have the money to go out and buy something ready to rock.

This is all down the track obviously, she's only been boosting for a week

Thanks again

sort of off the shelf kit. usually just the turbo and IP. thats the two main parts and you can sort the rest.

problem is one "12mm pump" is not the same as a "12mm pump". there can be a huge difference in performance between them.
you have no way of knowing if its going to work the best with your setup.

the other thing is fitting a generic turbo, wind the fuel up etc is all good. okish performance, cheap enough, not pushed hard so it allows room for error. all good.
however jumping up to the higher power stakes is a bit of a different ball game. you either go for custom made and do the R&D yourself, if you have the time and lots of $$$, or buy a proven setup that does what you want.

you can build all the other parts in the mean time. eg do the IC, the manifold, the filter/intake. then buy the turbo and ip, dyno tune to tweak the last little bit and its all done.

[dvk-kp]

That makes a lot of sense! Your a smart fella

Sounds like a solid game plan to me... Cheers mate.

[slidenyo]

been struggling with tweakes theory tbh.
my experience is fuel screw wound in = timing advance, elevated idle due to injectors cracking earlier?
injector crack pressure is set so a flow increase would not see them open earlier resulting in the timing advance but could coincide with elevated idle if more fuel is going past the nozzle before it reseats but this wouldn't be evident if tweake is correct in saying the screw is to control delivery at wot.
interesting to go back through my understanding of the subject.
also any compensated pump can be tuned within reason to suit any turbo through manipulation of the fuel pin seat pressure and smoke screw.
my setup would attest to that livening up a big ar turbo with minimal smoke an safe afrs whilst still having plenty of power .

[dvk-kp]

I don't really understand the finer point of it, first time really getting into diesel tuning. If turning the fuel screw up increases pressure/flow which results in a higher idle, what does the idle screw actually adjust to bring it back down?

Also I figure tuning the pump to suit turbo can be done with good success, seems it's the most common way people do it, but I can also see the merit of a kit that's been properly set up and ready to go, just sounds super pricey!

[slidenyo]

at each fuel adjustment of an eighth turn i was picking up 300-500 rpm at idle so rather than have it sitting at 1200rpm winding the idle back at the throttle stop settled it back to a healthy 7-800rpm

[dvk-kp]

Cool thanks, roughly how much of an increase in egt were you getting with that 1/8th of a turn?

[tweake]

been struggling with tweakes theory tbh.
my experience is fuel screw wound in = timing advance, elevated idle due to injectors cracking earlier?
.

sort of, injectors are cracking open earlier but not from increased pressure.

when you adjust the max fuel screw your actually adjusting the start point of the injection rather than the end point. so its now injecting earlier hence the timing increase.
because your making the amount of usable plunger stroke longer and its being lengthened at the idle end of the stoke (the start point), it also increases the amount of fuel its injecting at idle, hence the idle adjustment required.

the main thing to remember with max fuel adjustment is its opposite to normal thinking, your adjusting the start point of the stroke rather than the end of the stoke.

fuel injection pressure i would assume is to do with plunger diameter, ramp angle and nozzle size. that combo gives flow rate and pressure.

edit: keep in mind this applies for the boost comp as well. as the end point is fixed and adjusting the max fuel is changing the start of injection, your adding fuel in the off boost part of the injection. so to add fuel only for high boost you also need to adjust the boost compensator as well.