Recovery hooks

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:12 pm

Why ever would i need insurance for a Forum????????????????????????

Ummm ok presumably we all take our vehicles offroad ....some area's are forests etc and you require insurance to get in there....if you cause it to burn down then you have to pay for the firefighting and replacement cost. Its not about insuring our vehicles but insuring where we go....landowners are more willing if we are covered.

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:17 pm

I thought that statement was relating more to a comment about ORE not being a club.

If you are a paid member, you are in the ORE club are you not?

xj · Post by xj » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:19 pm

sorry, ought not to presume that people can read between the lines of sarcasm....

Jerry, ive never taken my wagon offroad on a forum...... have you? :wink:

Dave, exactly my point.

Post by **mike** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:22 pm

Std 3/4 towball broke @ 8.15 tonnes
Snatchmaster chrome hook broke M12 8.8 1.75 pitch bolts at 7.12 tonnes

umm higher numbers are better right??? I'm taking my nice shiny snatch master rated hooks off and putting my tow ball back on!!! :lol:

Lucky i havnt had to pull a whale out yet with the surf!

You need insurance for this forum so when we sue your ass for slander you can still afford to keep your truck :wink:

Your in the ore 4x4 association if you can access those forums :wink:

Mike

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:27 pm

Don't forget all your expenses mike to run ORE.......Internet costs, (perhaps not loose women, beer, rasberry buns and landrover parts).

There is the Supporter option for $20 which doesn't have the 4wd assn membership ...... the $wd assn membership allows you to go on trips where insurance is needed....accident, fire etc ...

xj · Post by xj » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:30 pm

seems logic is wasted on some.........

Mike, seeing as how the chief is here....... is ORE a club or not... cant be THAt hard can it?

Ah well, where's Callum.............. here boy, here boy........

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:33 pm

So Mike has to miss out on his loose women, beer and landrover parts this week????? :cry:

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:38 pm

This is an example of why we don't trust or use factory "tiedowns" or hooks....

Factory hook on this Surf on the Terawhiti trip today (2nd day of the trip)

The hook came off because the rated bolts holding them on in the captive holes failed, the hook is likely to snap rather then just bend like a forged rated one would.

disfordog · Post by **disfordog** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:02 pm

There we have it I guess!

This exact symptom happened to my 80's Surf! The bolts distorted and ripped clean out of the captive nuts!!! The hook was fine though... I had the chassis repaired and a rated hook attached with some 5mm plate drilled and attached between the hook and chassis with 3 bolts. No more probs...

The failed stock setup did have 25-30mm spacer blocks for the factory nudge bar that the hooks were also attached through to the chassis. Which I thought would have unnecessarily stressed the bolts under load and thus causing the failure....

Looks like a factory nudge on that one too! Did it also have factory spacer blocks? Or just ripped clean from the chassis?

OUCH!

Post by **mike** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:24 pm

xj wrote:seems logic is wasted on some......... Mike, seeing as how the chief is here....... is ORE a club or not... cant be THAt hard can it?

Ah well, where's Callum.............. here boy, here boy........

offroadexpress and the forums are not a club, just a group of like minded individuals coming togeather and bagging each other in their sport/hobby of choice.

Saying that, a group of forum members have formed an association which is a registered incorperated society so that they can enjoy the benifits and piece of mind of several insurances when on organised association 4wd trips

Mike

Madaz · Post by **Madaz** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:39 pm

Hey Jerry what point are you trying to prove with the above photos?
Thats not a failure of the hook?
And ever rated bolts will break at a point.
How was the truck being recovered?
Do you know the bolts were done up tight?

JTop · Post by **JTop** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:05 pm

That style of hook, as well as the one shown in the pics at the start of this thread' create a leverage over the mount bolts by their offset design.
This causes bolt failure before there is any chance of the hook straightening. The supacheap 4500kg hook snapped when I tested it as did the Black Rat black. If you are suspect in any way of the mount you are using, ie factory captive nuts, unboxed chassis etc, the Bushranger hook straightens at @ 5 tonnes and comes with 1/2" grade 5 bolts whereas the Snatchmaster hooks only have 12mm 8.8 bolts yet straighten at @ 8 TONNES. Possibly a lighter fuse in the circuit in the form of a bushranger hook would be safer
J Top

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:42 am

Hey Jerry what point are you trying to prove with the above photos?

This was an example of an unsuitable factory hook mount, we all need to be aware of the type of hook it is and how it is mounted an how it will react in a situation, also do we strop to death until the vehicle is recoverd or the hook breaks?, Simon & Grant Guy (who are well known competition 4wd'ers) as well as experienced Levin, ORE and CCVC guys were on the trip.

Thats not a failure of the hook?

Nop, it was clear that it was a failure on the mounting bolts.........ok so IF that hook was mounted with proper nuts ie not the factory threaded holes then the hook would have snapped and then headed into the rear of the vehicle in front of it.

And ever rated bolts will break at a point.

Yes, the will, do we strop to death, or use alternative methods? Simon & Grant seemed to use the winch more than stropping,

How was the truck being recovered?

I understand it was being gently stropped, the driver was a newbie....which we all get on shiny trips and the first few trips we all do are on factory hooks so we all need to be aware of their dangers.

Do you know the bolts were done up tight?

Unknown....do we now check all hooks with a torque wrench before each trip? As Jtop said the factory mount holes seemed to be the issue.

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:40 am

ok so IF that hook was mounted with proper nuts ie not the factory threaded holes then the hook would have snapped and then headed into the rear of the vehicle in front of it.

you are making an assumption that may not have occurred.

JTop · Post by **JTop** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:13 am

Al
I have never snapped 1 of those hooks because the bolts have always snapped first when load testing. The back bolt stretches and snaps and the the front bolt shears.
I refrain from personal attacks on forums but I struggle to understand your attitude.
J Top

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:22 am

My "attitude" as you call it is directed at the ASSUMPTUION made that if the bolt did not break, the hook would have. I have used factory hooks for years with no problems. I think that things break when the wrong recovery process is made. There is too much snatching and tow rope use when people should be winching. I have two rated front and one rear hook PLUS my nissan factory hook and I know which one gets used the most.
Al

JTop · Post by **JTop** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:08 pm

I have two rated front and one rear hook PLUS my nissan factory hook and I know which one gets used the most.
Al[/quote]

That would be the front ones in a Nissan wouldn't it ? :lol:

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:40 pm

Ummm guys.....when you have settled down... :lol:

I made the comment about the factory hook snapping, speaking personally I would rather trust using a rated hook which is designed to bend over a factory hook.

Yes I have seen occasions where there was agressive stropping when a which or even digging a vehicle out would be a better option. how do you factor in an allowance for someone who isn't aware of this or a bit of a nutcase attached to the front of your strop when you are being recovered?

coxsy · Post by **coxsy** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:05 pm

fitted two hooks on the front of the saffy either side of the winch plus two on the chassis at the back all fout done like the ccc thingy design , because they looked like a good idea. but must check the stardard front one , as i used that one alot the first year i had the truck.

disfordog · Post by **disfordog** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:18 pm

JTop wrote:Al
I have never snapped 1 of those hooks because the bolts have always snapped first when load testing. The back bolt stretches and snaps and the the front bolt shears.
J Top

That's exactly how it went down for me!!!
:headshot:

Damn, thats a rough graphic...

Madaz · Post by **Madaz** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:53 pm

"Front bolt shears"

Whats its still doing in the hook then?

JTop · Post by **JTop** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:43 pm

It is still in the hook because it is bent so it won't come out.
It has sheared at the the weak point, the start of the thread

Madaz · Post by **Madaz** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:42 pm

If the bolt has that amount of distance between the hook and the chassis rail, that would more likley be the reason for failure.The bolts would only have to be slightly loose to cause a weakness
Were those 2 bolts holding the bullbar on ,on that side?
I think theres more to it than a hook or bolt issue.
But all that aside we really dont want a recovery hook to bend, brake , fracture or leave the vechicle in general.
I have never seen any of those factory forged hooks bend, brake or shatter but I have seen the Rated ones straighten under winch loads with interesting results.
I know what I would rather have on the front of my vehicle.

xj · Post by xj » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:58 pm

Has anyone gone to their manufacturers specs to see exactly what the factory hooks are "rated" to, or if there is a "recommended limit"? If they do have a rating regardless of wether its 100lb or 10,000lb, then the manufacturer ought to stand liable for a failure. If theyre on there, and the manufacturer refuses to comment on loading, then i'd suspect they were dodgy. If there are no Specs available with manuals etc..... go to Nissan or Toyota or whatever and find out. Cant be too hard can it? Or can it?

Who is to say that the factory ones arent rated higher than 10,000lbs.... without the manufacturers specs its all supposition isnt it? Gotta weigh apples with apples.

callum007 · Post by **callum007** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:20 pm

im not sure what you mean xj.. what you calling me for.

Ah well, where's Callum.............. here boy, here boy........

yes i have had my bumper towed off... my bad. 3 feet of snow covering a bank i was stuck against... ive bent chassis rails.. ive nearly towed my pintle hook right off..

or do you just want me to make a drunken comment and get everyone fired up??

xj · Post by xj » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:48 am

Callum, what are you on about? (dare i ask) You're a tad left field there sonny Jim.

disfordog · Post by **disfordog** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:37 pm

Madaz wrote:If the bolt has that amount of distance between the hook and the chassis rail, that would more likley be the reason for failure.....
.....Were those 2 bolts holding the bullbar on ,on that side?.....

My factory setup was similar, if not the same...

Does anyone use a bridle between 2 hooks? Wouldn't that halve the load between them? I guess its not practical if someone only has 1 on each end of their rig... :fart:

rollypolly · Post by **rollypolly** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:41 pm

SO THEN END OF THE DAY WHAT U USE ON YOUR TRUCK IS UP TO U!!!

AND IF NOONE WANTS TO HOOCK TO IT, I HOPE U CAN DIG WELL???

SO PLZ PUT RATED HOCKS ON, WITH THE RIGHT BOLTS/NUTS,
i think i seen sum nice plans on here sumwhere. gaps not no good :evil:

MATT4U · Post by **MATT4U** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:07 pm

From
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3731

MATT4U wrote:For all of you who dont understand how importent it is to not only have rated hooks but mount them correctly but also check the mountings and bolts.

On the weekend we went for a drive out the waimak and decided to pop past the play pit and see who was there. We came accross some people trying to recover a hilux surf that was stuck front first down a hole, they had been trying to pull him back up and out of it and disaster hit, the hook on the tow vehicle broke the bolts, went through the rear window shattering it and lodged itself in the roof of the surf above the rear seats. Apparently there were kids in the back seat whe this happened but I was ot there to see.

When we arrived we offered to help and tryed to pull him out fowards, on of his mates connected the rope to the front of his truck, when asked it it was a rated hook he connected to he said it was just as good. about 10 seconds later we had ripped his bullbars off the chassie!!!

In the end we high lifted the rear, dug out under the diff and winched with a safari PTO and a pully block with another safari as an anchour.

So just as a warning, Check your hooks and bolts

Rated hook, rated bolts, mountings broke out of the chassie

Recovery hooks

tow hooks