4AGE or Swift engine for 413?

Project413 · Post by **Project413** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:57 pm

I'm not completely new to suzuki's having owned a pretty unmodified one for the last year. But having since sold it and having my motorbike pinched i'm without transport. So now i'm looking at buying a samurai. I drove a couple of these a while back and while i understand they're pretty good off road they're pigs to drive on the road. I'll be taking it up to Ruapehu in winter regularly from wgtn so want something with a bit more balls.
I've heard that you can put swift engines in them relatively easily, and also that a toyota 4age will go in with a little bit more work. Has anyone on the forum done this themselves or know someone who has. Me and a mate will be doing the work ourselves so want to know what's involved. Also, what are the dis/advantages of each swap?
The car will be getting limited off road use, mainly just to get around red rocks for diving. Are there any other sensible ideas to go ahead with while the car is in pieces that anyone can think of?
Any links to swaps would be good too.

Cheers
Nick

krawlr · Post by **krawlr** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:27 pm

i wouldent even think twice............go the 4age my mate in nelson has a suzuki buggy running a 4age turbo and man shes 300 hp it eats the local boys with the v8 cruisers etc and they totally spew

they get real jelous ,half the money and double the power and awesome fuel economy,but if you go down the 4age road make sure you use the 100kw model theres a big difference and ditch the tvis crap which was designed for economy and simply restrics intake airflow ........(the 4age is prob a little heavier with the cast iron block opposed to the swift having an alloy,but i can asure you the power will make up for the weight!)

best 4cyl money can but regarding petrol engines :wink:

good luck with youre toy mate......

lilpigzuk · Post by **lilpigzuk** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:32 pm

http://home.iprimus.com.au/pulsr/g13b/

This site gives you a good overview on the swift conversion. I have done one to my SJ410 - not as straight forward as a SJ413.
Am not far off doing another GTi conversion into my SJ413 flatdeck. I have ended up getting a right angle drive kit form suzisport to ease the conversion.
Highly reccomend the swift conversion, but the motors can be hard to find cheap (look on trademe - they are usually asking $1000 + for motor/loom/ECU). I managed to score a couple of cheap ones - also look out for Barina GT's as these are a swift GTi rebadged (last one I got for about $550)
I have seen a few Zuks with the 4AGE conversion done, not bolt in like the swift but isnt to hard in making new engine mounts etc. Motors are plentiful, not sure on the gearbox though as I think you need one out of a early trueno/sprinter. Alot of these getting used for rally cars so Im not sure how available these will be now/in the future. Quite a bit more power than a GTi motor and if that still doesnt satisfy you you can always get hold of a 4AGZE

You may possibly get away without a cert for the swift engine conversion but not with the 4AGE, may sure you take that into account with certifying costs

Rex

Project413 · Post by **Project413** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:20 am

Cheers for that guys. I've decided to go with the 4age swap coz it sounds like a bit of fun and I know someone who will make mounts. I'm still lacking a bit of info though. From what I gather, I need a 4age engine (pref black top i think?), a T50 gearbox from a rwd toyota like the early trueno's etc, as well as the loom and ecu. Am i right in thinking that the transfer case for the 413's are completely seperate from the gearbox, making the swap (and maintaining 4wd) possible? Also, someone mentioned to me that you can either muck around forever with adaptor plates, or shorten the driveshaft, which sounds a bit more straightforward. Are there any other bits and pieces that i'm not thinking about, fuel pumps, water pumps, radiators etc? How much of the standard ones can I safely keep?

krawlr · Post by **krawlr** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:58 pm

dont take effence but....dont waste youre money with that T50 crap there totally overated and overpriced and a very high demand from the boy racers ,go for the w56 from a surf and use the transfercase ,this will cost prob 2-300 and is far more stronger than the early ae86 t50 and there a diamond dozen which the t50 is not(this is the setup my mate runs with his turbo 4ge zuk thing and it holds up no worries :wink:

(as well as the hilux diffs)

yes you can use the divorced setup but use the nissan 720 tranny(strong as)and use the w58/7 supra box for this and you have one bullet proof package :!:

good choice on the engine too mate you wont look back..........

good luck bud :wink:

lilpigzuk · Post by **lilpigzuk** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:36 pm

krawlr wrote:,go for the w56 from a surf and use the transfercase ,

Use the surf transfer case or the zuk?? Just checking as the Zuk output is offset to the right as with rear pumpkin. If you use a surf (Im guessing they are a centre output) transfer then you can run into vibration issues with the two flanges being so out of line. Some people find this an issue some dont, but as you say you could be doing some onroad driving - this maybe a concern
If krawlr is saying to still use the Zuk transfer then ignore my ramblings :lol:

Project413 · Post by **Project413** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:57 pm

Thanks for ideas but can anyone clarify? I rate its drivability on road pretty high, so wouldn't want anything loose. Its the first time doing an engine swap for myself so I want to find out what problems i'll run in to before i run into them. Has anyone on these forums done the swap themself or know someone's set up well enough to tell me a bit about it?

Cheers
Nick

Rangielux · Post by **Rangielux** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:29 pm

I run mine the other way (driveshaft wise) offset range rover transfer to Hilux centre diff with no driveline vibs, but the driveshaft is fairly long.
Make sure the yokes are allways in phase and the u joints are not at too much of an angle (experts say 15 deg but we can push them alot further than that) and you can get away with with two flanges out off line no probs.

Alot off offroad racing buggys now run 4age's and seem to be getting the quirks a sorted out to get top performance. Toyota racing do some nice trick bits for them too I think?

swift is a better bolt up tho? and may look better to a certifier (cant say I've ever meet one tho)

lilpigzuk · Post by **lilpigzuk** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:52 pm

How stupid of me....... I just got reminded on our Zuk forum

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nzook/

Why not go the vitara motor option. Dime a dozen, heap of options on motors and a few of them getting supercharged now.....

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 270361.htm

This is all you need to bolt one up. I have bought one of these kits (no plan to use it soon, but Im one to get one for a rainy day project!!) very well made, the guy selling them is on this forum and it is a VERY tidy piece of kit (the adapter not Ben :lol:

)
Keeping it Zuk, same running gear, nice power upgrade without going over the top. Very common upgrade in Aussie - check out Zuk section on outerlimits site.
Sorry to throw more options at you but this could be the one :wink:

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:33 pm

The full rundown on my conversion (word doc) is in the files/tech section of the nzook site. I've done over 60 000km on the conversion now, it goes really well. krawlr is right in saying that to do it right the 1st time a W56 box is the best option.

The 100kW 'red top' engines are less preferable for 4x4ing as they are less torquey, however with the right gearing this won't be so much of an issue.

You could just buy mine & swap all the gear out of it.

I reckon the conversion cost me around $2K & I got the motor free & did almost all the work myself.

I also have a rebuilt 4A-GZE for sale, but I would be hesitant to put one in front of a std zook drivetrain.

Cheers
Clint

WACKO · Post by **WACKO** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:19 am

as far as getting the 4age motor going, you will need to do the fuel pump and maybe a surge tank (not 100% sure on the surge tank) if you plan to run injected. as far as wiring it up goes, i think my mates use modified fwd looms and change them a bit. you will also need a rwd manifold as the fwd cars point the intake the other way. they are geting hard to find but you can get a fwd manifold choped and welded. gearboxes... t50 is hydraulic clutch and there is also a k50 that has a cable clutch. a cheaper option. and if you know what cars and vans to look out for, easyish to find. but like krawler said the hilux gears would be a stronger... if blackbetty is who i think he is, hes a good one to talk to. then there is http://www.club-k.co.nz and toyspeed. and http://www.garagedori.com has lots of info on converting old carby cars to injected 4ages. those sites obviously arnt 4wding sites but they (esp garage dori) have alot of info on 4age conversions. and now my usless ranting will stop.

redzuki · Post by **redzuki** » Mon May 01, 2006 8:19 pm

is the 1.6 vitara conversion better than the 4-age ,it seems alot more people have done the 4-age conversion .What is involved in the 1.6 conversion ,what has to be modified /changed does any on know how much it would cost for a 1.6 16v EFI vitara motor .

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:31 am

I think 4A-GE's have been more popular as they make about 120hp compared to the 16V suzi 1600 at 100hp & 80 hp for the 8V suzi 1600.

Price is also a major factor. When I first looked at donor engines a 16V suzi engine was about $2K, I got the 4A-GE for nothing. However now the Vitaras are getting cheap & so are the engines making the simpler suzi 1600 conversion a more attractive option.

I didn't put a surge tank in mine & have never needed one.

I just put my 4A-GZE up in the for sale section, go on, you know you want to :twisted:

Cheers
Clint

redzuki · Post by **redzuki** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:31 pm

Does anyone make a bolt on adaptor kit to fit the 4A-GEor 4A-GZE into a sj413 ,What gearbox is normally used when fitting the 4A-GE engine

Madaz · Post by **Madaz** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:04 pm

If you havent done a engine swap before a 8 valve Vitara motor would be a good choice.If you use a adaptor plate kit you dont need to change gearboxes or radiators and the standard wiring hooks straight up.
If you can find a engine out of a N.Z. new Vitara they even have a carb that the standard cables will fit to.
Also the 8 valve motors are super strong my one has been running a supercharger @15psi for over 3 years (30000k's) with no problems.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:46 am

redzuki wrote:Does anyone make a bolt on adaptor kit to fit the 4A-GEor 4A-GZE into a sj413 ,What gearbox is normally used when fitting the 4A-GE engine

Not that I know of. You wouldn't want to put 120hp, let alone 140, through a zuk box. You can use a K-50 or T-50 (stronger) - only from a car that had an 'A' series engine, or W56 (strongest but adapter/custom bellhousing required AFAIK) Toyota gearboxes, a shortened intermediate shaft & move the engine mounts.

Did you find my writeup in the yahoo tech files? it's all in there.

Cheers
Clint

Disconewhere · Post by **Disconewhere** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:41 pm

Hey guys.

I'm thinking of a new toy along these lines, so how about a Sammy coiled with Hilux axles, 4AGE and the surf gearbox/transfer box. Will a 4AGE bolt up to the w56?

Cheers

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:07 pm

Disconewhere wrote:Hey guys.

I'm thinking of a new toy along these lines, so how about a Sammy coiled with Hilux axles, 4AGE and the surf gearbox/transfer box. Will a 4AGE bolt up to the w56?

Cheers

Would make a very cool rig. I think a custom bellhousing/adapter is required to put a G series box on a 4A-GE. I would go for a 4A-GZE minimum with the extra weight of all the hilux gear. A toy v6 would be the ideal, or a lexus if you're into overkill. You're almost scratch building a wagon so it's gunna be a big job.
I was thinking about doing exactly that but sammy's in good nick are the same price as the Prado I got, which already has all the right running gear.

Cheers
Clint

Disconewhere · Post by **Disconewhere** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:06 pm

Yeah, thats true, so how about the v6 out of a surf? are they heavy? what sort of power? how much? Really aiming to build something under 1500kg that is strong, small, reliable and great off road.
Is the surf gearbox/transferbox that much heaver than a T50 and suzuki transferbox?

See now I really don't know what I want, might just buy a samurai and start the process. Toy axles and coil suspension first, then decide on engine and gearbox.

LT1-62 · Post by **LT1-62** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:58 pm

What other engines have people put in zuks? Anything with a few more cubes? Im half pie considering buying a half built SOA sj413 and finishing it off, would defo want ot do a repower, but would like to put something along the lines of a v6 or v8 in it...

icekayak · Post by **icekayak** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:23 pm

Project413 wrote:I'm not completely new to suzuki's having owned a pretty unmodified one for the last year. But having since sold it and having my motorbike pinched i'm without transport. So now i'm looking at buying a samurai. I drove a couple of these a while back and while i understand they're pretty good off road they're pigs to drive on the road. I'll be taking it up to Ruapehu in winter regularly from wgtn so want something with a bit more balls.
I've heard that you can put swift engines in them relatively easily, and also that a toyota 4age will go in with a little bit more work. Has anyone on the forum done this themselves or know someone who has. Me and a mate will be doing the work ourselves so want to know what's involved. Also, what are the dis/advantages of each swap?
The car will be getting limited off road use, mainly just to get around red rocks for diving. Are there any other sensible ideas to go ahead with while the car is in pieces that anyone can think of?
Any links to swaps would be good too.

Cheers
Nick

Not sure how many trips i'd want to do in a 413 from wgtn to ruapehu... have you considered just starting with a vitara to being with

much more comfortable on-road but not quite as good off road (without spending a bit of money...) it should handle red rocks and that ok i woulda thought...
Then could supercharge/turbo it, some 31' muds on it etc etc...

Otherwise from what i've heard the later model samurai's are getting more comforable onroad for longer trips

Just a thought

the stock vitaras just don't have that offroad look to them though :cry:

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:52 pm

icekayak wrote:
Not sure how many trips i'd want to do in a 413 from wgtn to ruapehu... have you considered just starting with a vitara to being with much more comfortable on-road but not quite as good off road (without spending a bit of money...) it should handle red rocks and that ok i woulda thought...
Then could supercharge/turbo it, some 31' muds on it etc etc...

Otherwise from what i've heard the later model samurai's are getting more comforable onroad for longer trips

Just a thought the stock vitaras just don't have that offroad look to them though

Hopefully he has already done the conversion, its been almost a year since the original post :wink:

icekayak · Post by **icekayak** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:36 pm

oops

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:06 pm

icekayak wrote:oops

hehe, been there, done that :lol:

LT1-62 · Post by **LT1-62** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:19 pm

...well I dont feel bad hijacking the thread then... SJ repower options?...

4AGE or Swift engine for 413?

4AGE or Swift engine for 413?

Re: 4AGE or Swift engine for 413?

Re: 4AGE or Swift engine for 413?