-- Unrated Towhooks --

[Jerry]

OK we need to start thinking about checking towhooks and having some basic towhook standards on ALL ORE trips, its easy enough to ignore them...

Ok At the Aotea Block play today which was a Non Assn trip there was a little incident where the factory hookon Daisy's truck sorta came off...


Here is where it came off


Here is where it hit Saddams window


This is the damage it caused


This could have been an ugly incident...if Saddam was driving a Shinier vehicle then the hook would have hit him in the head....which would have involved a rescue helicopter and OSH and the Police etc.....

I would like some thoughts on how we self regulate this so we don't get incidents such as this again...this could have been your head it nearly missed or your wifes or even your kids.

All other clubs have some basic towhook requirements......do we make rated towhooks required on all trips? do we have an allowance for eg 3 trips only on factory hooks?

My only concern here is safety not bring in rules and regulations, what are peoples thoughts on this subject....

[DaveM]

If we are to do this, wouldn't we need to ensure that its not just the hooks that are checked, but how they are mounted?
This exact incident may have occured even if it was a rated hook.

This would open a whole can of worms as it would need to be checked by someone competent, but who would like to be responsible for checking these? You'd open yourself up for all sorts if you had deemed the mounting/hook safe, and have it fail and possibly kill someone.

I think we do need to do something reguarding recovery points, but how far do we go?

[Jerry]

The thread description says 4wd regulations what section would be better? ...do we need a seperate Rules section?

Land Access / DOC legislation / Regulations
Discussions concerning land access, DOC legislation and 4wd regulations

[DaveM]

I thought the regulations were for the DOC side of things

[tallsam66]

WOW
Looks like you's were lucky someone wasnt hurt.

Did you have a dampner hang over the rope/snatch strap???....a dampner should of taken alot of the energy out of it & reduced the severity of it.

The tow hook looks fine...problem was where it was mounted....looks like it just peeled off..was it attached to the factory location?

Trev

[Jerry]

Its a factory Mu hook, so It would more than likely break off and fly at Saddam's head still rather than bend, factory mount looks like a weld...

So how do we make sure everyones hooks are safe? and not have people moaning that we are quoting a rulebook

[mike]

The thread description says 4wd regulations what section would be better? ...do we need a seperate Rules section?

Land Access / DOC legislation / Regulations
Discussions concerning land access, DOC legislation and 4wd regulations

Just created a 4wd safety forum and moved this topic to it.

I personally think anyone on this forum going on trips should get their vehicles tow hooks checked. Other members on the trip should check out new peoples hooks. It can be a requirement for organised trips from the forum by the person that organised but we(every other forum user) cant force it for every trip, you just mention that you choose not to tow them out if they havnt had their hooks checked out by someone capable. As soon as you start imposing rules and regulations on people they will not come, or they will break them. You educate them with pics and photos like youve done, suggest they wont be towed out if they arnt upto standard. administering a 3 trip policy just wont work for an open forum due to the headaches involved with keeping track of it.

clubs are different, they have rules that HAVE to adheared to.

Just my thoughts

[DaveM]

[
I personally think anyone on this forum going on trips should get their vehicles tow hooks checked. Other members on the trip should check out new peoples hooks. It can be a requirement for organised trips from the forum by the person that organised but we(every other forum user) cant force it for every trip, you just mention that you choose not to tow them out if they havnt had their hooks checked out by someone capable. As soon as you start imposing rules and regulations on people they will not come, or they will break them. You educate them with pics and photos like youve done, suggest they wont be towed out if they arnt upto standard. administering a 3 trip policy just wont work for an open forum due to the headaches involved with keeping track of it.

clubs are different, they have rules that HAVE to adheared to.

Just my thoughts

I agree, while we don't want to put people off, we still need to ensure the safety of others where we can.
The whole tow hook thing is always going to be a subject of debate, and it would be near impossible to keep track of a 3 trip rule with the amount of people interested in the forum trips.

At the end of the day, hopefully the more experienced members on trips will give pointers, and it will be up to the individual as to whether or not they are prepared to recover vehicles if they are not confident of the recovery points.

[warlord225]

Even something to cover the back or front window like a tarp or something, anything to slow the damn things down, it sounded like a gun going off.

I personally think that people should take responsibility for their tow hooks.

unfortunately this was a case of structural fatigue, but something needs to be done to stop this hapening.

so like I said before, people need to take more responsibility with their vehicle, and this could even be taken to the poin of "if you get stuck and don't have good hooks you can get yourself out"

[jdeburgh]

Good example of why tow hooks should be bolted right through with a plate on the nut side. Looks like this one had welded captive nuts on the inside of the chassis? I might be wrong though.

I don't think there is a need to go making heaps of rules that will be ignored or broken when it suits.

Who would have thought this would happen to a factory one though. it was not the hook either it was the chassis!!

So do we need rules for chassis? - (no I'm being silly).

As I see it no need for any rules except that they are bolted right through with at least 8.8 bolts and have a plate on the nut side to help stop the nuts pulling through the japper chassis. - Simple and everyone can understand and look to see if its right.

The other thing is recovery technique, how much of a part did this play in the result? Not being there i can't comment.

regards

John

[warlord225]

your right J, they wer captive nuts and if y ulook carefully it tore a peice out of the chassis.

[jdeburgh]

Yep that will be why then, only millimeters (maybe 2mm) of mild steel to hold all those forces - something had to go. Thats why those factory ones with the captive nuts are no good.

John

[Jerry]

Even something to cover the back or front window like a tarp or something, anything to slow the damn things down, it sounded like a gun going off.

Ummmm have a look at the indentation mark on the STEEL frame and the side of Saddam's cab.....a tarp ain't gonna stop shit......better to concentrate on the hook mounted properly rather than trying to stop it when its flying....

Even a flying strop will do lots of damage....Cloggy recovered a car off Red Rocks ages ago ...the strop went thru both windows and came back in and brought loads of flying glass shards into his face.....

[DaveM]

Does anyone object if I copy these photo's and hand them on to my local NZQA 4wd instructor?
Would be good for when he does his recovery session.

[fweddy]

What sort of recovery was this? Tow or snatch?

[Jerry]

They are my pics.....feel free they have open copyright....

[DaveM]

Thanks, appreciate it. Might as well try to educate as many people as we can on how dangerous recoveries can be

[warlord225]

snatch from this
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/modules.php?set_albumName=album384&id=P1060334&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

[Jerry]

Except in the break it was being recovered from the rear.....apparantly (I turned up just after it happened...

[mroffroader]

Imagine if he had of snatched him out using his front hook ....he was very lucky, I wish I was there....I just missed it

[dazza85]

I think that it has been said before on this forum. when you all get together at the start of a run everybody needs to look at all the trucks and decide if there are any tow hooks etc that they would not recover off.

I've been out with some friends and recover with a shackle through my tow bar tounge and one friend prefers not to be recovered with this set-up. (understandably he does not like the idea of a shackle coming through his windscreen)
We all understand this and respect his opinion and 'cause we talked about it at the start there are no issues when people start getting stuck.

Rules are great but there are so many these days that have the attutidue " stuff the rules "

I think that what I'm realy trying to say is If you are towing or being towed you need to be happy with the rigging.
You know what risks you are prepered to take and you need to know what risks others are prepered to take before you head out.

Comunication is the key to keeping safe, and photos like these realy help to keep people thinking about the very real risks !!

My thoughts for what they are worth.

[Jerry]

Most of the time when recoveries are being done the hooks are usually buried and/or covered in mud

[Leithfield]

OK we need to start thinking about checking towhooks and having some basic towhook standards on ALL ORE trips, its easy enough to ignore them... All other clubs have some basic towhook requirements......do we make rated towhooks required on all trips? do we have an allowance for eg 3 trips only on factory hooks?

Jerry, do you have a learning disability; how many times must we revisit your *obsession!? Offroadexpress is a forum and therefore no mandate can be made for vehicle preparation. Offroadexpress 4x4 Assoc Inc. is a club and, in interest of member safety, has an established tow hook policy.

As has been previously advised ad-nauseum, within general forum the emphasis can only be on education, personal responsibility, and trip leader right of veto. Your concern for safety is both genuinely valued and respected within the Assoc; your continuing attempts to impose a code of safety within the general forum is misguided, for it will serve to discourage those who would benefit more from education.

The literature on social learning theory tells us clearly that if one desires change in the immediate term, then one mandates that change take place; however, compliance is only effected in the short term. Conversely, if one demonstrates the advantage of doing things another way, change not only takes place, but is sustained longitudinally.

* Obsession A persistent, unwanted idea or impulse that can not be eliminated by logic or reasoning.

[DaveM]

I think I must have the learning disability, because I don't understand half of your posts Leithfield

[jdeburgh]

I think I must have the learning disability, because I don't understand half of your posts Leithfield

Might be easy to explain if thats you in the toy car??

-- tee hee!

What he means, and I'm sure you really understand him! - is that it's a bit like the current government; if something goes wrong, then they have a 'knee jerk' reaction and make a law (rule) about it. In many cases ill thought out and un-enforceable without regard to any future consequences.

However, if they decided put some time into educating people about the problem then there would be more compliance because people would want to do it (it would be thier idea) and they would recognise the need for it. As opposed to something being forced upon people (mostly unnecessarily anyway).

John

[DaveM]

I think I must have the learning disability, because I don't understand half of your posts Leithfield

Might be easy to explain if thats you in the toy car??

John -- tee hee!

It's not, but I want one

[warlord225]

oy. Leave jerry to his mindless rambling,

and by "telling someone off" over the internet you look like a putz.

*putz - go look it up

[Jerry]

Leithfield....yes we are a Forum, "we" are running the same type of "trips" as "normal 4wd clubs", we also have a "towhook policy" but thats a fat lot of good if Saddam is lying there in his cruiser with a towhook in his head......you could argue that a forum of people actually constitutes a "club", call it a forum or club or gathering then as I said all I am trying to do is stop this happening again, I would appreciate any useful suggestions as opposed to you quoting the dictionary

[warlord225]

how about this fact, it doesn't matter what you call it, club or otherwise, we need some sort of standards when we as a "club" or whatever go out on trips together, no one gets hurt or injured.

and untill you make it blatanty obvious most people arnt awear of any tow hook "policy" or legislation or rules or whatever

[Jerry]

oy. Leave jerry to his mindless rambling,

FYI Warlord....if there was a serious injury then You would have been held responsible as the "organiser" in the eyes of OSH, the Police etc......checking hooks etc is something that is easily forgotten....and only takes 5 mins and something that we ALL need to remember to do....

PS Thanks for the support

how about this fact, it doesn't matter what you call it, club or otherwise, we need some sort of standards when we as a "club" or whatever go out on trips together, no one gets hurt or injured.

and untill you make it blatanty obvious most people arnt awear of any tow hook "policy" or legislation or rules or whatever

This is pretty much the point I was raising ....