Nth. Canterbury Waipara Gorge Access Update

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:41 am

The bollards and rope have been down for ages now, the signs still remain. I am interested in checking out if he has all the right pieces of paper to run this venture as I have sussed it out for a similar venture on the coast. You need to do a 4wdriver traing course, have doc conncession to take tours, have a OSH management plan that caters for the worst possible scenario plus all the insurance. Heard on the grape vine there was an incident up there lately, thanks for giving the other side tallsam66.
You watching this thread Access4wd?
Al

MudBum · Post by **MudBum** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:45 am

As a realative newbie to 4wding i have not been on a lot of trips but the Gorge I have been to 3 times.
1st was with my Uncle and 3 of his mate from Sinda-Awesome trip for my first, as it gave me a bit of everything -River Crossing,Rocks (albeit small)Mud,and Pea shingle with an awesome swimming hole at the end.We left there and we did everthing right (rubbish removal,proper toilet handling and wrecked nothing)
2nd trip was with 2 mates and we also had a ball (amazing how different conditions made the same trip nothing like the first)also left everything better than we found it.
3rd trip was a shambles..invited by a family member to go on a trip and we ended up with 20 odd trucks,all different clubs and not a lot of leadership.When we got to gorge a few in the group went mental and started ripping everything up,this caused a few trucks to leave in protest and the rest of us trying to sort the idiots out (i have some pretty damning video of the culprits)
This gave me my first look at what the cockies must be on about,if all groups did what these dicks did then none of us will be able to enjoy this beautiful peice of our country.
While i DO NOT support what the farmer is doing,after witnessing what i did something has to be done to stop this kind of vandelism b4 we all get tared with the same brush.
:batman: My 5c + gst worth.

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:10 am

supply the video footage to the appropriate authorities so prosecution can be addressed and these iduiots are dealt to in the proper way. It would be interesting if any of those trucks caught on video vandalising the area had club stickers on them, wouldn't it. And then what clubs specifically.
Al

Sadam_Husain · Post by **Sadam_Husain** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:46 am

Good post mudbum

Leithfield · Post by **Leithfield** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:11 am

MudBum wrote:While i DO NOT support what the farmer is doing,after witnessing what i did something has to be done to stop this kind of vandelism b4 we all get tared with the same brush.

In this particular example that "something" needs follow from you. Within public forum you have documented that within the Waipara Gorge environment "a few in the group went mental and started ripping everything up" (vandalism), and that you have "some pretty damning video of the culprits" (hard copy evidence) ... or, put another way, you have witnessed a crime and are in possession of evidence that can identify the offenders.

Not only do you have a moral obligation to your fellow responsible 4wders to come foward, you also have a legal obligation under law.

Kevin Dougherty
Public Relations Officer
Southern Region
ORE National 4x4 Assoc Inc.

access4WD · Post by **access4WD** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:07 pm

Yes I have been watching this thread (in answer to Albundyâ€™s comments).
When ever we get situations of Access like this it is easy to blame all sorts of people. Get emotionally involved and so on. I disagree that Claremont Farms or any neighbour up the Waipara Gorge have a secret agenda, In Claremontâ€™s case there is a very genuine concern that this area is special, and the public should have access, they are not trying to create a â€˜Private reserveâ€™ but acknowledge that for the sake of ongoing conservation of this special and great place, there should be rules.
The open to all to rip the place up like Mudbum saw (and yes I agree he should come clean and have the people, who caused those terrible activities made accountable) is the no go. If every user in a vehicle behaved in the area acted like our Treadlightly rules say and really tried to conserve the area for all of us to enjoy and go back to and enjoy for many generations to come, the issues we have in the Waipara River Gorge area would simply not exist.
Most in the posts are forgetting that.
Mike, I am somewhat confused by your posts here, I am not sure if you are being defiant or really trying to help add value to the area.
Mike, if you are saying that rather than go up there and protest, we emphasise an understanding to met with neighbouring landowners, clean up tracks, fix areas that have been damaged, maybe even plant a few trees and show the locals, and the world that we are reasonable people who respect the environment and we want to truly leave the place BETTER THAN WE FOUND IT! The I am all for it.

Paul

Post by **mike** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:57 pm

we emphasise an understanding to met with neighbouring landowners, clean up tracks, fix areas that have been damaged, maybe even plant a few trees and show the locals,

I don't think I am really interested in meeting landowners just to get abused. I have heard of reports of abuse and even abuse in front of children. I will do my bit in cleaning up after others, I just hope its not locals who are doing the damage as it was in the case of macetown. And just to make matters worse I have heard of land owners up there stringing wire across tracks to scare trail bikers, this is just outright dangerous and shows the mentality of some people.

I think I will organise a family trip up there and see for myself. I will also phone in advance and see what the reactions are. If any abuse is given either in the gorge or over the phone there will be no future respect from me towards any land owners up there, it is my right just as much as theirs to go on that land.

Till I see evidence of either parties activities I have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Mike

Leithfield · Post by **Leithfield** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:14 pm

access4WD wrote: I disagree that Claremont Farms or any neighbour up the Waipara Gorge have a secret agenda, In Claremontâ€™s case there is a very genuine concern that this area is special, and the public should have access ...
Paul

Reality check Paul - while the above is your opinion, I hold another. I submit that the actions of Claremont Farms in erecting barriers (now removed east of Stringers, but still in river situ beyond Laidmores Rd) to prevent public access, and the appalling actions of other "neighbours", is no less unlawful and indefensible than the conduct MudBum witnessed. The law must, and does, apply equally.

needswork · Post by **needswork** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:36 pm

Mudbum, I like the cut of your cloth, a new guy to 4WDing and you were exposed to some bad stuff. I agree with what others say, go talk to th e authorities about that trip as the guys responsible for ripping up the place need to be sorted, otherwise regardless of all the best efforts that these jokers making the posts here the place looks like a good target to be getting locked up.

MudBum · Post by **MudBum** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:58 am

Well some interesting comments by all,I spoke to my wife last night regarding all this and the fact we have some vids.
While I would like to help out where possible, i've never been much of a snitch so presenting evidence is not my style.
Also most of the vid is of my family, with some foolery going on in the background,so to this end it will never be shown on a website.
However i have 3 small peices of vid of the worst culprit that i am prepared to release(to finally get up the bank he came up an already used bit and nearly took us out)
As for legal responsibilty,a grey area for me and a scary one(lucky never to have much to do with the boys in blue :salut: )
So some advise from you legal speaking types would be appreciated,I would prefer someone that wants to get the vids and take it from there.

access4WD · Post by **access4WD** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:53 am

You are missing my point. This is not about good vs bad or who breaks what Law, this situation in the Waipara all started because a group of people and some individuals in motor vehicles have created the issue, Neighbours reacted, and I cannot really blame them. Some people even seem to go up there with an agenda to up set the neighbours, nothing more. Trying to prove the point â€˜that this is public land and we can do what the hell we like.â€™
Paul

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:33 am

well thats the best bit of dummy spitting i've seen for a while :lol:

breaks my heart :wink:

Post by **mike** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:38 am

I think I now understand ORE people.
It is rip shit and bust everything!

I believe this to be an unfair generalisation. Labelling everyone from a fews actions is not good. You speed paul (or have done and sometimes do) so you are a boy racer who causes carnage and danger to the public !

If you really are trying to get rid of the hoons from the sport then you need to change the perception of the sport where people are viewing it ie. get it off the TV, The trials, the winch challenges where its full on wheels spinning knocking punga trees off banks (last sundays episode) - this is what the public are seeing, so guess what they go out and do ? And nz club members (combined as well) are doing it as well. Just because ORE is in the public eye we become the targets, but we are not the cause.

All this sort of bickering and finger pointing really does less for our interests than standing up to land owners who would have us shut out in a second. We wont have anything to worry about soon when all land access gets turned to walking access only.

Mike

H2OLOVA · Post by **H2OLOVA** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:19 am

what a load of shit. :roll:

From initially defending your opening post, i can now see that you are pandering to landowners that don't even own the land we are talking about. Sure there are dickheads around, but you quickly tar everyone with the same brush, which given your position is to easy.

I think I now understand ORE people.
It is rip shit and bust everything!

By saying this you are saying that you do it too, cause your an ORE member..........

I would have thought Leithfield, that as you are on the Executive of ORE 4X4 Assn and the South Island PRO for the same organisation, and linked to NZ4WD Assn you would be using an approach that encouraged an open and good outcome

and again the ORE association is dragged into a percieved ORE website problem.

Sure we want to help maintain access, and do it lawfully, but when you're dealing with landowners who erect illegal fences and/or abuse people without due cause, where does that leave us in regard to your comments Paul?

Steve_t647 · Post by **Steve_t647** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:54 am

Interesting maybe I should put up some videos of the combined club trips. Some of your trips and your combined club members trips are guilty of the same attitude's, and actions and nothing is said.

It is not just ORE and its members the fact what we are doing is put on an open forum does not mean we are hiding anything we do. Yes some of us are members of other clubs including yours, and no-one including Liethfield has said 4WDing is not partialy responsable for has occured in this case.

What we are saying is the rules are there and everyone needs to help police then. In my case I didn't mind the police involvement, what I did mind was the attitude of ownership by the land owner, and the fact we left because of his actions and language. Installing Bollards and wire rope to restrict legal activities is wrong, captureing the damage caused and publishing it and having the offenders where found prossecuted is the only way for everyone to go.

Members of ORE are encouraging this and when things have been seen to be wrong ORE has pointed this out and embarrased members, as you will have seen if you were reading and contributing to the group. I have photo's from a club trip where a club that is a member of the Combined group drove onto DOC land, I advised the club directly of their wrong doing should I have given this to DOC, I believe it was a mistake.

Have we been doing as you requested and staying away from the area? Yes
Did anyone say we should just go up there and hoon because we can? NO
Was a club trip up there be suggested now that the wire rope is down? YES
Odd that you see this "planed and organised trip" as a threat to the landowners, as a group in a public forum we would be unlikley to do anything like you have suggested we will be doing.

Warn the land owners so that we can show them our responsable driving, and join us on a trip! you will be supprised at the number of children and families in ORE trips, we are not the enemy and I have seen hunters do more damage getting 2 4x4's and trailer to a hut than 30 4wd's getting to the same point.

kaney · Post by **kaney** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:08 pm

I dont know alot about this subject but from reading this thread i think that the issue of Claremont Estate trying to make it a private reserve could be argued both ways

Claremont wrote:Claremontâ€™s guests have access to our enchanted valley in the foothills of the Southern Alps, the like of which you most surely have never seen!

seeing that most people staying at the estate will be tourists, to me the way they use "OUR" could be argued as being our - the wider New Zealand community.
Then it changes as soon as they try block other people from going up there, it becomes "OUR" as in mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As i come off a farm i know how much they(landowners) will get annoyed about people making a mess on land that they arnt allowed on.
Fishermen are the problems in my parents farms and initially they let them drive through the paddocks to get to the river but a few times we had a few people make a huge mess in a fresh worked paddock, and leave gates open(read a mob of 3000 fresh dipped sheep mixing with 5000 undipped) so now they walk from the bridge. I know that this is different as they are fishermen not fourwheel drives, (river to deep for 4wds). but i know that if you do show the land owners that you can be responsable they may let the known good people on their private land.(they do)

So if it is such a problem geting access why not approch they land owners, listen where THEY dont want people, and offer to...

Access4WD wrote:, clean up tracks, fix areas that have been damaged, maybe even plant a few trees and show the locals, and the world that we are reasonable people who respect the environment and we want to truly leave the place BETTER THAN WE FOUND IT!

...If anything it will/could help ORE be allowed up there... then maybe the wider 4wd community

Leithfield · Post by **Leithfield** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:09 pm

Paul, at no time have I ever condoned irresponsible or unlawful 4wd activity; indeed, you have conveniently overlooked the fact that my consistent position has been quite the reverse.

Clearly my advocacy of one law for all is out of step with your vision of political correctness. If you perceive 'one law for all' as "trying to antagonize local neighbours" or represents that I consider "the land owners, farmers and others who neighbour the Waipara as the enemy, and their rights do not matter" , then in my opinion you are naive. I have consistently supported recognition of, and mutual respect for, respective rights.

As per my last post (you will note the absence of a signature line), this post represents my opinion, and is not representative of the ORE National 4x4 Assoc Inc position.

4wdnuts · Post by **4wdnuts** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:34 pm

although i agree that both sides have there issues with the Waipara gorge, i cant beleive that its turned into such bullshit.

Yes, it is motorised vehicles doing the damage ( obviously)
No, blocking access off because you think its wrong is not the right way to do things, especially when its not even your land.

everyone has made good points for and against here, but come on paul, theres no need for posting shit like this....

access4WD wrote:.... I think I now understand ORE people.
It is rip shit and bust everything!
As an example have a look at some of the threads on weekend activities etc, there are a lot of comments from people who just want to go out and play in their toys rip up the landscape and make a hell of a mess. All in the name of â€˜Hey look at me in my big tough truck!â€™ and so on it goes.....

Paul

that just gets peoples heckles up and in my eyes your no better than the farmer standing on the cliff top abusing people below.....

hiriklux · Post by **hiriklux** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:34 am

the farmer on the top of the hill wants sole use so he can charge guests a shitt load of money to take people there for a picnic dont be fooled into thinking he is doing it for the enviroment only for greed

access4WD · Post by **access4WD** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:12 am

I regret that I can no longer represent ORE on the sensitive issue of the Waipara River.
ORE 4X4 Assn has formally withdrawn itâ€™s application to join with Combined 4WD Assn.

Again I do ask, Please stay from the Upper Waipara at this time so we can allow tempers to drop and time to get people back to the table with a fair and open mind, That is all I am asking.

Paul

Post by **mike** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:08 pm

access4WD wrote:I regret that I can no longer represent ORE on the sensitive issue of the Waipara River.
ORE 4X4 Assn has formally withdrawn itâ€™s application to join with Combined 4WD Assn.

Again I do ask, Please stay from the Upper Waipara at this time so we can allow tempers to drop and time to get people back to the table with a fair and open mind, That is all I am asking.

Paul

This is the fundamental difference between the ore 4x4 association and the combined clubs stance. We as the new generation in 4wders are not prepared to be walked over.

I will lead an appropiate ORE family trip up there and if the land owners decide to go and abuse (which will be documented via any media to our disposal) us, or publish to the media or involve the police then so be it. A new ages is here, the internet age, where the world is watching. So no longer is it just a provincial matter but a national one.Traditional media is not the only thing being watched. We will publish all outcomes here, videos included so if land owners choose to allow their tempers to show then let the world see it. Naturally it works both ways.

So how long do you suppose we should wait? weeks, months or years? In the meantime are they are still using it ? or are they staying out as well till our tempers die down?

Mike

tallsam66 · Post by **tallsam66** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:05 pm

How long should we wait....i say lets go up there asap with our familes & enjoy the outdoors & the beautiful scenery.

Im keen to go almost any sunday & with so many people having kids sport etc on saturdays a sunday might be best.

Its a chance for us to fly a postive flag & show the landowners we are responsible..if they choose to throw abuse our way we will just document it & show the world on here how we are being treated.if they dont we will tell the world that too.

The Waipara & other rivers are for all of us to enjoy...if we dont use it we will loose it...just as if we abuse it we will also loose it.

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:03 pm

I can't see why we shouldn't do a trip either.
As long as we are responsible, then why should we stay away? Perhaps the farmers should stay away from the area as it seems to be them that have the tempers that need to settle.

This is public land, they have no right to keep us from it
I'm keen for a trip if one gets organised

Sadam_Husain · Post by **Sadam_Husain** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:31 pm

DaveM wrote:Is it actually public land, where we have the right to go, or is this a "grey area" where ownership is under dispute?

without running the risk of getting caught up in this specific debate Dave there isnt nessecarrly the right of access by vehicle to public land.

Public land will be administered by either a local body or by the goverment and will be subject to either local body bylaws or goverment management plans such as doc CMS's

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:34 pm

Sadam_Husain wrote:
DaveM wrote:Is it actually public land, where we have the right to go, or is this a "grey area" where ownership is under dispute?

without running the risk of getting caught up in this specific debate Dave there isnt nessecarrly the right of access by vehicle to public land.

Public land will be administered by either a local body or by the goverment and will be subject to either local body bylaws or goverment management plans such as doc CMS's

Yeah, thats what I'm trying to find out here.
Is this just a case of a farmer that want to keep people away so he can run his little yuppie tours, or are we actually not legally allowed to drive up there?
Does anyone know for certain? I was aauming it was accessed up the riverbed, and we were allowed vehicle access there, maybe not?

rangimotors · Post by **rangimotors** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:17 pm

If a suitable group of responsible people are interested in going for a family trip, i will be keen so long as its agreed that no one gets carried away just to prove some sort of point, im just keen to go to an area i have never been to and may in future not be available.
This is assuming that its still legal to go there..

All a bit frustrating, I got out of performance cars because i was sick of being labelled as a "boy racer" and because im a young male it was assumed i was an idiot like many others, now it seems I have jumpped out of the kettel and into the fire and may be judged by what I drive.

tallsam66 · Post by **tallsam66** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:21 pm

If vehicles are prohibited why is it the farmer can do his tours..but we wouldnt be allowed too drive there....or is it another form of tax & he has paid to be able to go there?
As people have been driving there for many years surely an existing use case would apply.

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:24 pm

Rich people wanting to get richer comes to mind but I can't say that as I have a title ..or stuff it I forgot to add it :lol:

needswork · Post by **needswork** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:55 pm

I think you all miss the point about legal access.
If you are not responsible about it, then you don"t deserve to be there.

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:50 am

needswork wrote:I think you all miss the point about legal access.
If you are not responsible about it, then you don"t deserve to be there.

what most here posting find hard to digest is the fact that all the issues are in the area that's making money for "private tours", and that has met with distaste.

We all want to take our kids up to the gorge from time to time, let them have a camp out and a swim in the gorge, have a climb on the rocks, and enjoy a beautiful spot a short distance from home, what's irresponsible about that :?:

Oh and I thought you had spat the dummy and left :cry:

needswork wrote:Me Too.
Thanks for the ride guys..