Attack on 4x4 use

PeterVahry · Post by **PeterVahry** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:24 pm

With the pending meeting in Otago a strong attack on 4x4 use has been launched by Mr Bruce Mason, an advocate for walking and former spokesman for Public Access NZ (PANZ).

This is a serious effort to influence and is well researched by him, even to obviously having used the Official Information Act to obtain emails etc from DOC to NZFWDA people.

Unfortunately he has even found the photo gallery on the NZFWDA website and had fun using the few photos there to illustrate his comments. (the photos are all around five or more years old).

It will be interesting to see if the news media pick up on his writings.

One thing that he does highlight is that he is disturbed by the level at which the NZFWDA has managed to get recognition within DOC.... if that doesn't prove to four wheelers of the effectiveness of the national organisation and value of belonging, then it's hard to know what would!

The articles in question can be found on http://www.nzfwda.org.nz

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:11 pm

Thanks Peter, any advice on how we counter this?

xj · Post by xj » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:30 pm

(Just an aside - why is ORE not listed under the NZFWDA affiliated clubs?)

PeterVahry · Post by **PeterVahry** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Not sure yet how to counter this attack, it depends on what is picked up by the news media.

As far as the ORE listing on the NZFWDA list...it's one of those tasks to be done. Send me what should be listed, names contacts etc and I'll sort it.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:12 pm

I'll mark it to the attention of the ORE committee to give you the updated details

access4WD · Post by **access4WD** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:27 pm

To even think of a counter attack at this stage is not a strategy I would support.

The meeting in Otago organised by DOC Otago, to which has been referred to, has Otago Land Rover Owners Club (affiliated to NZ4WDA) and Combined 4WD Clubs both attending by invitation and OLROC has the main speaking rights in respect of 4WD recreation. There is little point developing strategies until we know what the questions, complaints and issues and outcomes are.

As far as Mr Mason is concerned he needs to heed and think about the hand that feeds him. Many 4WD Clubs have help fund his self appointed organisation over the years.
PANZ has done a lot of good work over the years and his knowledge of Paper Roads, and access rights in the main are very sound. However if the comments made at the start of this thread are true, then I think over time PANZ will suffer from such an attack on either NZ4WDA or any Club. Equally why lower ourselves and fight in the same gutter that Mr Mason wants as a venue for his photos.
There are other more reasonable strategies to use than start or be part of a street fight!
Paul

Goose · Post by **Goose** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:56 pm

Oh dear lord, this Bruce Mason is a moron.

So, I'll use some of his own logic on him. :wink:

He states that "many 4wd's damage the environment". So therefore, the only answer is to ban them.

I have personally seen many non-4wd'ers out "picnicing" and throwing plastic wrappers, and othe non-biodegradable stuffs into the environment. So, therfore, the only answer is to ban them all!

Mountain bikers throwing "energybar" wrappers as the tear down hill.

Ban them all too!!!!!

What a moron. Tar everyone with the same brush.

It's a two way street dickhead!!!!!

warlord225 · Post by **warlord225** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:32 pm

I don't see many walkers packing chainsaws in to clear tracks, for use

Post by **mike** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:37 pm

warlord225 wrote:I don't see many walkers packing chainsaws in to clear tracks, for use

or a spade to dig holes to crap in, instead of leaving it lying around just off the side of tracks :evil:

I'm sure we could go on and on just like he did...................

Mike

Goose · Post by **Goose** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:50 pm

For Paul and Peter: I has an idea..... :roll:

It would take a fair bit of organising and planning, but what if the various clubs within NZ4WDA/Combined 4wd (using GPS/maps etc) mapped out "traditional" 4WD or "commonly used" area's of DOC/public land, then worked out the area involved (in k's squared) vs the total area of DOC/public land? I would guess that as a whole, the area we use (as 4WDers) would be tiny, therefore strengthening our argument to use those areas. I imagine it would be less than 1%, so our argument would be that if we effect less than 1% of the environment, how could we be considered as a harmful recreational activity?

It's always worth a crack, Nigel!! :lol:

Nigel??

Swaney · Post by **Swaney** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:13 pm

Goose wrote:For Paul and Peter: I has an idea.....

It would take a fair bit of organising and planning, but what if the various clubs within NZ4WDA/Combined 4wd (using GPS/maps etc) mapped out "traditional" 4WD or "commonly used" area's of DOC/public land, then worked out the area involved (in k's squared) vs the total area of DOC/public land? I would guess that as a whole, the area we use (as 4WDers) would be tiny, therefore strengthening our argument to use those areas. I imagine it would be less than 1%, so our argument would be that if we effect less than 1% of the environment, how could we be considered as a harmful recreational activity?

It's always worth a crack, Nigel!!

Nigel??

now that is some intelligent thinking!

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:58 pm

Swaney wrote:
Goose wrote:For Paul and Peter: I has an idea.....

It would take a fair bit of organising and planning, but what if the various clubs within NZ4WDA/Combined 4wd (using GPS/maps etc) mapped out "traditional" 4WD or "commonly used" area's of DOC/public land, then worked out the area involved (in k's squared) vs the total area of DOC/public land? I would guess that as a whole, the area we use (as 4WDers) would be tiny, therefore strengthening our argument to use those areas. I imagine it would be less than 1%, so our argument would be that if we effect less than 1% of the environment, how could we be considered as a harmful recreational activity?

It's always worth a crack, Nigel!!

Nigel??

now that is some intelligent thinking!

wow great idea
go on let them have it
:ripper: :rocketwhore:

Goose · Post by **Goose** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:19 pm

awwwww, shucks, gee thanks guys, you give me that all-over warm glow that I usaully have to pay for........ :cheers:

badnuz · Post by **badnuz** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:38 pm

warlord225 wrote:I don't see many walkers packing chainsaws in to clear tracks, for use

generally the local govt and PD boys do all that hard work for them.... :lol:

land access is touchy, the MTB fraternity are always fighting over similar issues ( even mtb leave scars on the land )

access4WD · Post by **access4WD** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:45 pm

Hi Goose
Agree with your thinking, I have used a similar idea before and it has had some success.

Basically what we have is a major case of â€˜Selfishnessâ€™ and I think that is where Mr Mason of PANZ is coming from. Hence my comment he needs to care that he does not bite the hand that feeds him.
Paul

nuts · Post by **nuts** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:17 am

badnuz wrote:
warlord225 wrote:I don't see many walkers packing chainsaws in to clear tracks, for use

generally the local govt and PD boys do all that hard work for them....

land access is touchy, the MTB fraternity are always fighting over similar issues ( even mtb leave scars on the land )

not to mention doc also call on local 4x4ers to help occasionally too :!:

as here in westport regularly on our own initiative we clear fallen trees .. gorse .... wreaked cars ... slips ... just to name a few of the things to keep tracks open and clear for people to use and it is and has been publicly appreciated by doc

timotheus · Post by **timotheus** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:08 am

Goose wrote:For Paul and Peter: I has an idea.....
.........
It's always worth a crack, Nigel!!

Tell me I'm wrong but its not the 1% we use thats the problem, its the fact that 1% is often also the bit used by other outdoors types.

Everyone seems to use similar paths and directions meaning we tear-up walkways and bike tracks...... Admittedly we also make new ones and as outlined above and do help maintain many existing tracks.

Personally I think we will head towards dedicated usage areas. Ultimately user pays systems.
There are some private, but hopefully we get some DOC land too. After all, most of us pay our taxes too.

Tim.

H2OLOVA · Post by **H2OLOVA** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:10 pm

Goose wrote:For Paul and Peter: I has an idea.....

It would take a fair bit of organising and planning, but what if the various clubs within NZ4WDA/Combined 4wd (using GPS/maps etc) mapped out "traditional" 4WD or "commonly used" area's of DOC/public land, then worked out the area involved (in k's squared) vs the total area of DOC/public land? I would guess that as a whole, the area we use (as 4WDers) would be tiny, therefore strengthening our argument to use those areas. I imagine it would be less than 1%, so our argument would be that if we effect less than 1% of the environment, how could we be considered as a harmful recreational activity?

It's always worth a crack, Nigel!!

Nigel??

Who's using Goose's profile :?:

baxter · Post by **baxter** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:59 pm

timotheus wrote:Personally I think we will head towards dedicated usage areas.

Indeed where areas can't practically be shared that's useful, but

timotheus wrote:Ultimately user pays systems.

over my dead body...

Azza · Post by **Azza** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:16 pm

User Pays?... I agree that it will be over my dead body too... Mountain bikers that have dedicated access to areas don't pay, as well as a host of other outdoor sports that have dedicated areas for 'their' sport...

Why should we be dis-advantaged as 4wd'ers and have to pay for land use?

xj · Post by xj » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:32 pm

So is anyone attending the 4 hour meeting held tonight at the carisbrook lounge, Dunedin? Just heard a radio item about a meeting being held by DOC and other "users" and the soundbite was predominantly about 4x4 usage.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:43 pm

It's tomorrow at 1:00; Carrisbrook Murrayfield stand.

Here's the agenda - http://www.or4g.org.nz/wheels%20in%20the%20back%20country%20agenda.pdf

Hope to make it, as long as get the farmwork done in time. Anyone who can make it should attend :!:

Cheers
Mike

xj · Post by xj » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:57 pm

ok, just got my info from the news on Radio sport this arvo.

Keep us all posted aye???

xj · Post by xj » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:57 pm

Any news of the meeting?

Pico42 · Post by **Pico42** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:52 pm

I went along - thought it generally went well, but we will see what the outcome is. Felt like a naughty school boy being told off by the principal when Mr Connell, the Regional Conservator was speaking - seemed clear that DoC's line is to close access and then sort it out from there.

What was apparent is that the concern is damage caused to conservation areas by people being where they shouldn't be - the dirt bike speaker had a hard task - those people are generally individuals not associated with clubs.

More to come, but sleepy time now...

PeterVahry · Post by **PeterVahry** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:38 pm

The concept of mapping is a hot one in the USA at present as their Forest Service has been required to identify all roads that they wish to keep and all others are to be rubbed off maps. Four wheelers are attempting to collate data to identify a variety of existing trails and provide that to the USFS.
DOC here are looking at that in regard to their long gestating proposed law to require permits for vehicles. Only known routes would be permitted.

That means that the suggestion to identify 4x4 trails is not a silly one and a project that some of our mapping genius's might guide us through.

It would help to quantify the low level of 4x4 access to the 1/3rd of NZ that DOC control.

Peter