Some sick thinking on IFS

[De-Ranged]

Right this is a project I've had in the back of my mind for some time that keeps sparking up every now and then and now that I'm getting welding cert'ed time to start looking a bit harder

To build high ground clearance kick arse syspension

Some of you may have seen the subarau brat that is doing the trails YEA!!!

How many times have you droped into a set of ruts only to get hung up on your diff's... answer bigger tires, but you only get half the increase in clearance!!
Why not move the diff head up... two options, planitary hubs to move the whole axle up (I haven't looked at this as I want a road going 4WD and my wallet isn't big enough ) next option IFS
Bonus's, good road handling, and potential due to the limited design breif (used more on road than off and cheaper to build to this)
Problems (to be overcome ),weaker than beam axles, limited travel, and low clearance due to chassi mounts etc

My Design "breif"
To take commonly available products (cheap and easily sorced) mix and match with some engineering to produce a cheap modula unit that with some engineering should go up under most 4WD's
The diff head is to be centered and narrow to give the max room for the suspension arms, the longer the "A" arms are the longer the axles are and shallower the CV joint angle is and the greater the range of travel. The lower "A" arm will be level with the axle for max clearance. The new chassi section will go over the top of the CV at the diff and will use the diff for strength
How does it sound so far
The syspension is to be coil or a dual action air ram and hydrolic damper, this would allow adjustable ride hight and handling for road or trail but would reqiure onboard air.

Now this is the bit where I need some help, the mix and match parts
I need the parts to be commonly available at wreakers, be strong! and be adaptable eg diff must be able to fit a locker, hubs to be 6 bolt so spare tire fits etc. Don't worry about compatability I'll deal to that
Heres what I'm working on at the moment
Diff - Hilux solid axle diff head, will fit a locker, resumbly strong and has a range of ratio's available at the wreakers
CV's - Hilux front drive shaft unit, just becouse I've got em
The rest well I'm open to your ideas

Please note this is going to take some time and I'm just starting to put things on paper it may be a while before it hits the shed and I've got to get the hilux done first

Looking forward to seeing what comes of this

Cheers Reece

[mumad]

So far this sounds great!!! i would suggest sticking to hilux parts as they are cheap as and as common as hens crap, Don't use anythig from isuzu as the cv's are dear and the inner ones are only ex wreaker or ex japan.
but thats just my 2cents worth.

[SupraLux]

SupraSurf (Mike) had an idea a while back to take an IFS setup and weld it solid in rougly its sitting position - ie: good clearance under the diff. then take that whole solid assembly and mount it on leaf springs.

The weak point would be the IFS diff, so good thinking to use a beam diff - much stronger. However - the rear strength woould come from using a high-pinion diff as they are designed spcifically for the front end. normal Hilux diffs are designed to turn the opposite direction. The hit here is price, but they are interchangeable anyway so it could be a simple upgrade.

Thoughts on centering - The output of most transfer cases is to one side - so you've got 2 basic sub-systems to design - a drivers side and passengers side input model. You can centre it slightly but I wouldn't go overboard - you could end up fouling the driveshaft under the sump and reducing clearance. I'd tuck the d/shaft as close to the sump as possible and use that as the starting point for any spcific vehicle.

your next trick would be the a-arms I guess - 4130 chrome moly DOM tube would be ideal - but bending tube is tricky without a pricey bender - I want to get one but can't justify one at the mo.

Alternatively make it fron box, like this setup - but I'd be VERY worried about welding the entire system - this still has the factory lower arm. single piece or monocoque has got to be stronger long-term and lighter too.
http://www.off-road.com/toyota/reviews/superlift/


Have a look at this mod for some ideas too:
http://www.off-road.com/toyota/projects/ORT/part1/index.html

One expense is going to be half-shafts, but have a look at those Tacoma ones in that last post - you might be able to mix'n'match shafts from various things to find the right lengths.

Anyway, enough rambling - good luck and keep us posted. When you get bored you can always cut it all out and do a SAS

Steve

[DieselBoy]

Your gonna laugh, but take a good look at the front end in a Lada Niva, they almost got it right

[SupraLux]

This bloody topic cost me about 2 hours of sleep last night

I was trying to work out how you could run longer arms without significantly widening the wheel-track... you really need to mount the arms off the chassis rails - and narrowing the rails would be a HUGE job, so you need longer arms, which leads to a massive increase in wheel-track.

You could leave the stock - or slightly lengthened - upper arm, and huge long lower ones under the chassis rails, but thats going to make the wheel do wierd shit as it travels up and down... and probably cause bad wear on the tyres.

Can I suggest throwing away all your IFS ideas and old parts and inventing a simple bolt-on SAS kit instead so I can get some damn sleep?

Steve

[De-Ranged]

Centering the diff, I have sort'a sorted by use of a tractor (farm tractor) pto drop box this will be mounted to tthe diff head with a flang allowing it to be mounted left or right by pulling the mounting bolts turning on the flang and remounting I hope that wasn't too confusing this is where a pic would really help!

The Chassi rails are no problem I'll make my own (now that I'm getting cert'ed) I want them in as narrow as possable to make for longer axles and A arms... this also means I can make the most of the syspension without increasing the width
The other reason I've decided on a who "subframe" unit, is on some trucks your going to have to remove the chassi anyway as they are the lowest point and those like the surf with plenty of room you just weld this new one in below

Hmmm the A-arms 4130 tubing would be nice but.. it gains alot of its strength frrom its shape if its dented it's compromised I like the idea of monocoque but I just don't have the gear to do that sort of thing (big press's to cold bend) what I was working on is double butted box section so each weld has a piece inside to reinforce the weld and a couple of other engineering tricks

I really like Mikes idea, I think I might look at that first. It'll give me a chance to sort the axles diff head etc with out the worry's of having to fit it all and I could test it out on the lux :thumleft:

Thanks for the sites those t100 axles look to be the one! time for a bit more research

Cheers Reece

[DJ]

just thinking about this and have been looking at doing something myself along same lines???? setting up an independant front end susp.
I have thought that leaving the chassis rails in the same outside position but pushing the motor back for balance ( a whole set of new problems) this would give me room for the bottom A arms to be attacted to the opposite chassis rails ie, the left bottom A arm would be mounted and pivot from the right bottom chassis and vise versa. this would ? give greater suspension travel on far less acute angles which could be a killer of CV's and when used with off road racing style shocks should have interesting travel. Haven't thought about steering yet.
Just thinkin out loud and planning
cheersDJ

[SupraLux]

Surely the angle on the CV will be set by the distance to the diff, not the distance to the pivit point of the bottom arm? The more droop you have the more angle you have - and the move angle you have the more stretched and assembly will get so you probably will need longer half-shafts with more spline on them to cover the droop...

I like the crossover idea tho - it would look pretty freaky - although it will limit the ground clearance a bit... probably better to have them meet in the middle to some beefy centre pivot point.

Steve

[matwelli]

Couple of thoughts,

1 - If you do this to the front, you will need to do it to the rear, no point in having 14 inch clearance at the front and only 10 at the back.

2 - sounds very similar to the RAV 4 setup, long spindly arms, centre diff (to reduce CV angles) ?, could do the same to get you bottom pivot in the centre, and change to mcpherson strut to remove the need for a long top arm ?

3 - what about keeping existing suspension mounts and extending the a-arms by 4-5 inches each side, and use some rims with minimal offset to keep the overall track gain to 6 inches or so, this will give you a couple of inches extra travel before the cv angles become a factor (this is how the VW baja boys get the extra travel without cracking the CV,s - my beetle has about 260mm clearance under the rear end at full extension unmodified - more than most 4x4 diffs), plus would look pretty horny with 4 inch wheel flares.
You could do suprasurfs idea at the rear to replace the rear diff (use an ifs system like a beam axle) and make it as wide as the front at the same time.

[SupraLux]

One problem with using SupraSurfs ideain this situation is that the idea of using IFS is for the advantage of IFS ride, leaf springing it would negate that. Also, if you want a setup like that you're better off just finding portal axles like those used in Unimogs or Volvo military vehicles.










On the thought of using McPerson struts - how about using non-flat bottom arms? put a curve in them so the arch down from the chassis rails - thats going to give better clearance out wide.

Steve

[De-Ranged]

Allready onto that Steve, I'm going to use standard hubs (probably surf ones at this stage, as I know a few guys with spare bits ),to gain the max clearance. The lower A-arm will be built to run from the lower ball joint in enough to cover the universal joint and then up level with the axle and under the top universal

I was working on the idea of making the arms from box section each side with a dura-steel skid plate bolted to the bottom, to strengthen them and protect the running gear

If you do this to the front, you will need to do it to the rear

To be honest the first version of this will probably end up in the back end, it removes the steering issue and the extra effort to certify and it lets me prove the strength of the different parts

change to mcpherson strut to remove the need for a long top arm

An easier option at first glance but there are 2 issues why not, it is weaker as you only have one A-arm also I know buggerall about options for this which means I'd be at the wreakers mercie

extending the a-arms by 4-5 inches each side, and use some rims with minimal offset

I'm trying to avoid this as it will mean the need for new rims and carrying 2 spare's but the more I look at this the harder it is to ignore the opitunity to gain some more lift/travel there is one issue with this style that concerns me is with the inset rims is the fact you need to keep hte A-arms narrow at the hub end to allow the rim to swing for steering and there is also the steering issue eg shorter steering arms - more load on the steering system or move them from inside the rims to outside and deal with the change in steering geometry I just thought why not bigger rims ... hmmm this might be interesting thanks!!

Cheers Reece

[matwelli]

Thinking some more (it hurts),

You would not need to change the existing a-arms (I guess your base vehicle is the paj - or am I on the wrong track here).

Keep the existing upper and lower arms, flip the top mount for better caster angles at the larger droop that you will be using.

Put in a centered diff head (possibly from a nissan 180b, skyline or similar - I like the 180b as it used uni joints, not cvs on the axles, and the axles have a slider joint in the middle.)

mount the diff head as low as possible without protruding below the cross member.

in this position you should be able to get a massive amount of lift without a large angle on the cv/uni joints, the a-arms will still protect the axles and you will have a large width under the crossmember at max height

[MATT4U]

http://www.brian894x4.com/Mytrucksmodifications.html

[matwelli]

http://www.brian894x4.com/WCORIFSINSTALL.html
is the link to the IFS system, great work MATT4U

[MATT4U]

the kits are out there but i gather they cost a bit, the way to do it i think would be get a few of you that would be keen, group buy 1 kit, copy it (i didnt say that) and adapt it for your truck.
mmmm standard 5" movement to 15" movement, HELL YEA

[DieselBoy]

Now that is the coolest thing i have seen in a while!!!

Maybe i should have kept the Terrano!!!!!!!

[De-Ranged]

Update for those interested

I've gotten hold of a surf front end and some spare bits for one (just couse they are as common as... and the toyota diff ratios)

Had a look at the 180b nice idea but I don't think its grunty enough for 33+" wheels

Been talking with wreakers in the states about toyota T-100 axles (a 3 1/2" longer version of surf axles) all good till you talk frieght and insurance I'm now looking at using standard surf axle assemblies and getting a custom lengthened axle made up to use the standard universals hoping this is a cheaper option added bonus I can double carbon the custom axles and with a small grind of the standard stub axle in the hub I create a weak link that shears just behind the hub spline meaning the axle should (fingers crossed) stay in the hub if it breaks no loose axles flailing around!!

The diff has me at the moment I was plaining on using the short side axle mount and diff stubaxle from the surf diff head and mounting it into a solid axle diff head... turned out to be the right number of splines... just the wrong size to small!
I still like the idea of extended surf axle assemblies as they are easy to replace on trail so I might look at building something bigger to take there place hmmm this steps up the stakes hmmm wonder if there is something else out there I can machine down

Any way thats what its up too I'll post some pics next time, hopefully there will be something to look at

Cheers Reece

[De-Ranged]

A wee update...
Been talking to a lot of people and I've had my thoughts on the IFS surf axles proved right... they are just to small! the only reason they last is becouse every one busts the diff first

I'm looking at the moment at indipendent car syspension likes of GTO or Supra
The supra is looking good might even be able to put hilux diff gearing in as they have the same Dia

The other option is a combination of surf hubs landcruiser and hilux axles and custom made diff head mount for a hilux 8" diff

Will post some pics soon

Cheers Reece

[eatenfuller]

ive been watching this post for quite some time.....................its been done before you guys are getting warmer

[De-Ranged]

Well don't be a tease ..... if its been done before give us the details

Cheers Reece

[eatenfuller]

ha,

what did you want to know de-ranged??


i can give you a mans name and contact whos running it in his buggy, ifs allround on bags (14inchs of travel in each corner)..........................the list goes on ........................but one of the most impressive wagons youve ever seen it just dosent get stuck and forgot to mention 8cyls and 4wheel steer and a tare weight of 1100 kgs

[De-Ranged]

Hmmm
What did he sorce the axles & hubs from also what did he do for diff head custom build short shafts and rebuilt diff housing or did he sorce it from something else
If he's running a V8 in a trails truck they should be strong enough for me

As I've found talking to people it has been done and some people have thrown ALOT of money at it, to do it I don't want to I want to do it with as much second hand stuff as possable and keep the custom bits to the min, but still have it stong enough to take the punishment yes I want the cake and to be able to eat it aswell

Cheers Reece

[matwelli]

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/air_shocks/

add the above into the ultimate IFS design, using cross linked air shocks to help make the IFS behave like a beam axle

[Heath]

just put a valve in between to close off onroad and open when off road.

[De-Ranged]

Right here's where I'm at with this

I've talked to quite a few guys about this and they've all hit a wall at 12" travel, or if you lift the diff 10" (4" down and 6" up but the diff will sit 2" higher than standard) This is limited by the angle the CV's are willing to work on!
and its gona cost to do it back axle & syspension $2200, front $3500 but this is all good enough to handle a V8 thrashing it
I've still got a few ideas that are a bit outside the box like fitting IS to a swingarm to give you the best of both worlds beam articulation and IS handling another is a Xover axle (left side diff drives right side wheel) going to require portals off the diffs then theres....

For those out there that arn't interested in something that kick arse strong or extreme I've worked out how to modifiy both the Surf and Pajero using a minimal amount of extra custom bits and almost doubles the travel This uses the stock diff and axles hubs if people are interested I'll finish this off and sort costs for ya

Cheers Reece

[MATT4U]

Yes im keen

[De-Ranged]

Oh and I almost forgot

add the above into the ultimate IFS design, using cross linked air shocks to help make the IFS behave like a beam axle

This is good as it off sets the problem IS has when you go offroad, when a wheel goes up the diff gets closer to the ground. With cross linking when you hit something as one goes up hte other goes down lifting the diff and the truck but lifting an end is not always a good thing!
Thats why I'm looking at cheap 10 bar dual action air rams these will be in addition to the rest of the suspension the reason I'm going with these instead of the airshocks is they are dual chamber, this means I can use them on sidlings to "pull" the uphill side down and pump up the down hill or if the ruts get a bit deap pump em all up a bit to help out and I run them off an Aircon pump with a few 12v dump valves and wolla "fully independent in cab suspension control"

Cheers Reece

[MATT4U]

Looking at the kits available all you need to do is extent the current IFS Degisn, get a wither offset and more travel, Problem is you will need custome cv's

[MATT4U]

What about having the arms angle down, like this

[DieselBoy]

Thats not going to increase the travel.