Sheffield Event - Mudplug or Trials?

SupraLux · Post by **SupraLux** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:55 pm

Ok, I'm pretty sure the answer to the question is that the event should be renamed Sheffield Trials... Having said that, what I would prefer to see is it retain its current name, and see more mud and less technical driving requiring either a very carefully designed small truck or 4 wheel steer. Its a mudplug, the course should perhaps be redesigned to reflect that.

Before I go any further, please understand I'm not pointing the finger, hell I've been to the last two and love the day out. Its a great chance to meet people, get ideas, eat sausages, and break windows (eh Rik ?

) - but it needs a little bit of a shake up I think. There needs to be some more help, more input and more thought into the design of the event. I simply think as a 4WD community we leave this to a select few - I know for a fact Dave from Falsgrave Auto Spares has put a huge (and I applaud him for it) effort into this and other events - but look at his vehicle... Its a machine, wide, low, stable and able to turn tightly and climb very well - its a trials vehicle. If I had a truck like that, I'd design events for it too... but the answer I think will be to have a few more of these events run by us, the community, and give some of the old guard a break - Can we do a mudplug where 4WDs can have a chance over very expensive custom vehicles?

Primarily the entrants to this event are 4WDs, not trials trucks. Its called a mudplug, not a trials event. So why is it so tight and technical? I think maybe 2 or 3 holes having some bum-pucker factor, and another 2 or 3 being quite difficult to complete is a good thing - but My score last year and Riks this year were both high - and caused mainly by not being able to turn the trucks inside a stupidly tight turning circle. In fact, on our very first hole this year the first truck mostly made it through the mod class line, the next one got half way around and pulled out, the next one only survived a nasty roll by launching himself off the bank at speed and then pulled out and then we very narrowly survived rolling and pulled out - I don't know how many trucks actually rolled on #8, but it seems there were a few.

Also, tight turns - How the hell you are supposed to get a vehicle like a Hilux around some of the corners is totally beyond me. In some cases we were three or four truck widths outside the line by the time we had completed a turn - which meant we got stupid high scores for leaving the course. We would have placed better by starting, crossing the line, stopping and withdrawing on every hole!

So the rules need some tweaking too: a three point turn should (IMHO) incure say a 40-point penalty, but the lines should be designed such that most trucks should be able to turn inside the marks by taking the right line. Loss of forward motion should mean just that - you lost it, not that you chose to position the truck better for the track. If you start a hole but pull out you should get max points for that.

Ok, enough to get started - I'm sure everyone has an opinion... Can we bash this out, get a set of rules that will actually work nutted out then find some space, design and run an event and see how it goes?

Steve

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:15 pm

I will definitelt put my hand up to help out on that one Steve. We could use rik's place for trials but not sure about mud. Know any friendly farmers anyone.
Al

rangimotors · Post by **rangimotors** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:18 pm

lease no one take my comments to seriously, im sure if i was or had of entered i would of put in a little research and found out lots more info, im sure there were lots of saftey warnings and precautions that as a specatator i was unaware of.

This is the first one i have been to so i better not comment to much, BUT like you steve i couldn't beleive how technicial and in my opinon dangerous it was, I thought it would reflect its name and there woud be lots of mud holes and that to roll or do serious damage you would really have to cock something up badly, I got there and one of the first trucks i saw rolled and the more and i saw (loved it, it was great to watch) the more i wondered how the hell you can run an even like that without requiring roll protection, im far from a saftey nazzi but certain people (mike, ill pick on you caus you can take it) could have been in alot of danger if he rolled. everyone seemed pretty sensible and drove well so it was a good day, but for those of you who entered expecting a bit of fun and a play in the mud and ended up on there lid with a fair bit of damage i feel sorry for you. Jo bloggs who turned up without much trials experiance and only a slightly modded truck or a truck set up for mud plugging could of ended up in a fair bit of trouble or with a shinny truck which was written off..
I thought this to be an event designed for club trucks to test here skills and trucks while having heaps of drity mud plugging fun.
Well done to all those involved and a big thanks to the organisers and helpers, I dont want to put a downer on the event at all but i would love an event suited to road driven or club trucks that don't have to be custom built jobbies, maybe next year it will be wet and completley different or maybe it will go the way of trials trucks only either way i think we all realise the difference and need to be aware of what the event is when entering. Cheers

As for running another one (maybe more suited to the majority of us) that sounds great, dont think i no anywhere suitable but im always happy to grab a spade if we do find something, and happy to help repair the area after use as im sure this would be the farmers main concern.

NJV6 · Post by **NJV6** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:38 pm

I wasn't there but can guess by the vid's and comments how tight it was.

Whilst I agree a tight course is difficult, there can be degree's of tightness, why not make a couple of tight course's that the standard uki's can get round but also have some steep climbs which benefit the longer wheelbase vehicles....

Commenting on the damage - have a look at the original thread and comments made by Fitzy & Steve about the course & quite clearly saying it is not really suitable for 'club trucks' - They were warned.

Smokey wrote

Anybody want to listen to a bit of advice,------- If the vehicle you are going to enter is your family vehicle or the one you are relying on to go to work on Monday morning, or you are new to offroading Don't enter. Come along and watch or even volunteer to marshal, watch and learn,

Steve wrote

The Mud plug last year saw several roll-overs (me nearly included), and a lot of breakages (me definitely included in that one - the first breakage for me was the 1500kg tie down that was holding my sub box down in the rear snapped as I dropped off a bank on the second hole and damn-near belted Rik in the back of the head - which would have been serious if it hadn't hit the seat instead. I also had a front driveshaft failure and nearly soiled my pants on that near-rollover All this in a very modified truck - Your average Surf or Terrano would probably sustain panel damage at the least.

Also remember you have no insurance while driving in the event unless your insurance company specifically says you do (which I doubt they will).

Yes it is always disappointing to roll a vehicle if not 'designed' to be rolled, but there were warnings.

Steve wrote

Can we do a mudplug where 4WDs can have a chance over very expensive custom vehicles?

It does sound like a good time to make a 'club truck friendly mudplug'

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:57 pm

It does sound like a good time to make a 'club truck friendly mudplug'

Or go nad build a trails/play truck that you don't give a shit about. That's what my terrano is for and boy have I got plans for it. See you there for next year.
Al

wjw · Post by **wjw** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:00 pm

NJV6 wrote:Commenting on the damage - have a look at the original thread and comments made by Fitzy & Steve about the course & quite clearly saying it is not really suitable for 'club trucks' - They were warned.

The above is the reason I didn't enter. The Mrs even told me I could!!!

My truck has 35's 100mm lift, front & rear lockers etc... but I can't afford to have it off the road at the moment... If we are a two car family by next years mud plug I'll be entering ;-)

Also they made the course more technical as there was no mud to speak of...

Steve_t647 · Post by **Steve_t647** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:10 pm

The course was way too tight for most trucks I am not sure some cars could turn in some of those circles and I am sure my road bike wouldn't either, but with all the dry weather we had up to the event I think it was more of a trials course this year. If the Sheffield course continues to be this technical and require trucks that are that well setup they may start loosing competitors or we may all have to go for modified 4wd motorbike's.

Last year most of it was achievable with a normally modified 4x4 some were not and you had a string of cars drive in and out (fair call drivers choice), this year I walked the course and do not think I would have driven some of them.

This year it looks like one locker required, fiddle brakes on the front, height adjustability (or lower cog), rolling 2wd 4wd selection capability to prevent loss of forward motion and I would think you will see external cages (Exo's) in fashon next year.

Steve_t647 · Post by **Steve_t647** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:22 pm

But in saying that Mikes SWB Landrover did very well, it has a low centre of gravity and SAT style tires but I think mostly the oil he spread allowed tighter circles than a welded diff should :wink:

I think he used 40 Litres of fuel and 8 litres of oil at least that is what it looked like from what I could see... or not see as the rev's went up.

I would like to say the event was very well organised marshals were in the right places and they scored within their course pretty consistently.

Also the day was not cut short or altered much with the rain on the day, a great event but just too tough for me to look to compete I cant do a u-turn on a 2 lane road in my hilux

I even saw Suzuki's backing up to get around stuff and lined up.

toysuzi · Post by **toysuzi** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:33 pm

it was my first trial i was suerprised to see how
many whales ect entered. I was scared to enter
as i thought my suzuki was not up to it? (hard club truck)
sav who went down with us has been doing trials
for over 20 years thougth it was about normal

only damage i did was bent the tie rod end
as it was not set up right (need to put the steering box forward a bit)

Goose · Post by **Goose** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:54 pm

Looking at the event, I probably would have entered, but definately pulled out of a couple of the scary ones :shock:

I think organising a less difficult event would be cool, what would be real nice is having stuff similar to the one the guys up north just had, with speed trials, figure 8's etc (I wouldn't mind seeing pete and mike doing speed courses :twisted:

) as well as a bit of plugin!!

One thing to think about; the property owners liability. I have heard that even with signed waivers, that if a "major" occured, and it was found that the hazard wasn't correctly identified, the owner/organiser can still be prosecuted.

That said, by making the event simple, ie no real risk of rollovers, or high speed runs into fence posts, it should be easy enough to mitigate accidents.

DO EEET!!!!!!

DO EEET NOW!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, we deal alot with health and safety, and hazard ID at work, I'd be happy to help with that side of it :wink:

Petemcc · Post by **Petemcc** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:09 pm

I would be really keen to enter an event where is was very unlikely that you would roll or cause to much panel damage. Thats the only reason i didn't enter on the weekend. My truck may be a piece of shit but in my eyes being my every day car its still to shiney for me to ding it up to much.

Pete

Steve_t647 · Post by **Steve_t647** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:43 pm

I think the balance is is should be achievable for everyone but it should not be a shiny event either.

It didn't really matter what the points were at the end of the day and I am sure Rick and Steve and others would agree, the tightness of the course made the event less fun for those driving that could not get around it without resorting to backing up.

I felt sorry for some who broke because they were turning on such tight angles, I think the speed course everyone enjoyed, the wider ones too and everyone liked the water hole even tho it was tight.

PigFmr · Post by **PigFmr** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:45 pm

i was the passenger in this on sunday we rolled it aswell in the afternoon,just aswell we had a outer roll cage on, it only smashed window screen and door mirror, left it 15mins and we were away again,
broke a cv in the morning,but found it hard to keep inside the markers as the hilux has a locker in the front,but had a great day as a passenger,photo below was after we rolled it and it was a steep bank

vince

turoa · Post by **turoa** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:51 pm

complaining bunch of wankers. I havnt seen any of the ones complaining set up an event which has got coverage on the news (even though it was very short). None of the hazards are compulsary (i.e they dont point a gun at your head and say

)

There were warnings about damage.

The course is set up tightly otherwiseit would be hard to do well under the current weather circumstances (it would be too easy)

PR · Post by PR » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:08 pm

albundy wrote:That's what my terrano is for and boy have I got plans for it. See you there for next year.
Al

I am doing the same just have to decied what to build

tube buggy V8 :wink:

zuki lexus V8 :wink:

safari Chev V8:wink:

But I am here to help in anyway if people want to set up other events

PigFmr · Post by **PigFmr** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:14 pm

the driver was not worried about damage to his truck, if he was worried about damage he would of never of entered it in the (trial) mud plug!!, as he has done events like this before
vince

niblik · Post by **niblik** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:20 pm

great day but as stated by supralux, damn tight course..a few of the hazards were interesting and made competitors think about what lines to take and maybe sacrifice a peg for 20 points to line up a corner better, so for that, brilliant and well done..

as for me entering a vehicle to compete, i'd have to say no.. i know i'd do something dumb or get the shot of the ole crowd pleasin adrenalin.. :roll:

hence safer to stay away all together.. sorta gets back to turoas comment of "dont have to do it.."

still, a simpler type of 'mudpluggin' event for more stocko trucks may be a goer.. get crowds ampin etc..

but where would an event like a bogger show be held?

niblik · Post by **niblik** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:22 pm

oh, and keep sheffield too... just make another event also, maybe in winter further to utilise the rain and with big tents up etc for possible shelter and food..

need more days like that down here.. :mrgreen:

QUADRACER · Post by **QUADRACER** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:57 pm

had a great day, this was my first time in one of these events, and yes it was hard, but like the saying goes nobody is making you do it.
i was put off by others on the site about how this is for experienced drivers, and you were right.
would i do it again, lets say i would enter and decide on the day.
and by the way, it all for a good cause.

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:09 pm

turoa wrote:complaining bunch of wankers. I havnt seen any of the ones complaining set up an event which has got coverage on the news (even though it was very short). None of the hazards are compulsary (i.e they dont point a gun at your head and say )

There were warnings about damage.

The course is set up tightly otherwiseit would be hard to do well under the current weather circumstances (it would be too easy)

hmmm, the complaining was done by those who drove the course, and yet you bag them for doing this and you weren't entered, so how do you know their complaints weren't justified?

fweddy · Post by **fweddy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:10 pm

QUADRACER wrote:had a great day, this was my first time in one of these events,

I was looking for your zuk in the photos but didn't see it.

Obviously the dry conditions changed things a lot this year and so the team did what they thought was best and so I say its a great idea to generate a separate event.

I recall reading in the Waimak thread that the newly designated 4x4 area is pretty much open slather to drive any where. Is there banks etc in there or is it just pretty flat? Would it be possible to develop a bit of a course there? Obviously it would be mucked round with by every joe blow and his truck but that might just enhance things a little and every one could head down there on a designated sunday preceded by a planning team who mark out a track for the day.

Of course a farm some where would be good. Just near me here is a normally dry creek bed that as boys we used to ride our bikes and later motor bikes in with the farmer's permission. And another section of that creek is in scrub (gorse, broom, blackberry, elderberry etc) and the farmer liked us cutting tracks in it as it gave him access routes.

turoa · Post by **turoa** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:18 pm

DaveM wrote:
turoa wrote:complaining bunch of wankers. I havnt seen any of the ones complaining set up an event which has got coverage on the news (even though it was very short). None of the hazards are compulsary (i.e they dont point a gun at your head and say )

There were warnings about damage.

The course is set up tightly otherwiseit would be hard to do well under the current weather circumstances (it would be too easy)

hmmm, the complaining was done by those who drove the course, and yet you bag them for doing this and you weren't entered, so how do you know their complaints weren't justified?

The only unncecery damage would have been caused by themselves. I highly doubt the marshals made sure they did every hazard. The hazards are optional.

But as it was pointed out, the scoring system did seem really out of wack.
should have made it be 30 for a reverse, and 20 a peg. 100 points maximum.

SupraSurf · Post by **SupraSurf** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:27 pm

Don't confuse Tight with Technical.. the course was tight but designed I dare say to challenge all types of vehicles. The tight corners null the Big tyres an attempt to level the playing field. I would suggest technical means there are multiple lines for a single hazzard and selection plus placement decides the right approach.

Also the event is a "Fun Day" for the benefit of the Sheffield Fire Brigade so the best result for them is in the numbers.. and rightly so.

So the trials rules are the best set to suit an event where 50 trucks are expected to do two rounds of the hazzards in one day.

The course and rules allow fast processing of vehicles without massive time delays for stuck trucks in huge bog holes. Allowing reversing becomes a technical nightmare which could allow vehicles to retry sections without penalty, taking up more time.

Winch Challenge or Rock Crawling style rules would limit the number of vehicles and extend the time taken to complete the event.

Congrats go to the organisers being able to run an event like that in one day with 50 toys on the course, judging by the response it was successful, hopefully the Fire Crew made some good $$$

However, point taken.. there is room in the market for a "Tuff Truck" style event designed for all of us who like the big feet, lockers, crawlers etc...

I would suggest those interested should look at some sort of un-offical "PUT UP or SHUT UP" session to encourage those who talk up their toys into putting them to the test outside the trials rules

QUADRACER · Post by **QUADRACER** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:29 pm

most have a fun day out at the Ashley, could we use some of these tracks, to have a club fun day out??
introduce new people into the fun, and gauge what activitlies they want.
p.s Fweddy I came 7th in the modified class with no lockers

niblik · Post by **niblik** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:30 pm

SupraSurf wrote:an un-official "PUT UP or SHUT UP" session to encourage those who talk up their toys into putting them to the test

oh hell yeah :!:

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:31 pm

niblik wrote:
SupraSurf wrote:an un-official "PUT UP or SHUT UP" session to encourage those who talk up their toys into putting them to the test

oh hell yeah

My safari vs your 40. 3 weeks time :wink:

fweddy · Post by **fweddy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:46 pm

QUADRACER wrote:most have a fun day out at the Ashley, could we use some of these tracks, to have a club fun day out??
introduce new people into the fun, and gauge what activitlies they want.
p.s Fweddy came 7th in the modified class with no lockers

Good for you you must have escaped the pictures!

Actually there is a place down the Ashley I think would be ideal for dry technical course but am not prepared to make new tracks even if it is only a broom infested area. Also have been eyeing up a big mud hole for ages but too scared to go in. Went past it the other day and looks like some one has tried it, by the evidence it appears they had to winch them selves up a steep bank and drag their belly over it due to that being the only way out with a sturdy tree to connect to.

QUADRACER · Post by **QUADRACER** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:55 pm

when would you like to try, will come a help retrive you if you don`t make it, if not just sit and laugh.
PM me and will arrange a time and day

Shane · Post by **Shane** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:37 pm

A cause doesn't have to be tight to be technical/difficult,one of the most popular causes was the one with the cabbage tree up the steep bank,a tuff cause with only one tight turn after the tree that most just drove over the peg(only 20 points)more causes like this would have been nice.

Having a very short wheel base vehicle that can turn tight corners doesn't mean a higher driving skill.

I deffenitly think the cause was tighter this year than last year.

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:45 pm

Peg two options around the hard bits, certain classes are able to take the easy/safe line.

Keep the scoring system the same with graded pegs.

Alow reversing but use a winch challenge style time limit to complete the hazard to prevent mutiple attempts at hazards.

The trial sounds similar to the way fun trials are set up, with points lost if pegs are hit or you go out around the pegs.

Proper trials, the pegs are graded, your points are awarded based on which set of pegs you get your front axle past. Hit a peg, or go out side them and you get the score of the pegs you previously went through, and thats the end of the hazard for that vehicle. There's not really much scope for multiple lines either :wink:

I reckon a couple of you guys should just do it and get together out at Ricks for a day and peg 2 or 3 hazards out and come up with a plan on how you could make a club truck friendly trial scoring system, and get a feel for pegging hazards for the sorta trucks you guys drive.

Once ya done that, organise the hell play day for everyone