Home made Hydrogen generator for my Feroza

[pagar]

depends on your veiw point really cause if you add hydrogen and pure oxygen to the fuel air mix (regardless of how its made) it increases the amount and efficency of the fuel burn. buy your way of maths NO2 would decreace efficency. All I am saying really though is those for hyrdroxy or browns gas etc will give figures that show one thing and those against have other data. as I said lets build one and put it on the dyno then testing is exact and measurable. Even if all it does is boost HP then I am all for adding one to my bush truck as it would be cheaper than adding LPG injection. And I happen to have a few spare motors for my little max's and am well insured so I don't mind blowing up my shed in the name of invention. Try it and see, for that is the kiwi way, just make sure you have a fire exstinguisher handy

[KiwiBacon]

depends on your veiw point really cause if you add hydrogen and pure oxygen to the fuel air mix (regardless of how its made) it increases the amount and efficency of the fuel burn.

Two problems there.
1. An internal combustion engine is not limited by how well the fuel burns. It is limited by how well it can transfer the resulting pressure increase into turning the crank.
2. Even if the claims were true, those devices don't produce enough hydrogen or oxygen to make any difference.

buy your way of maths NO2 would decreace efficency.

You'd better expand on that, because I have no idea what you're on about. NOx systems don't increase efficiency, they provide more oxygen so you can burn more fuel.

All I am saying really though is those for hyrdroxy or browns gas etc will give figures that show one thing and those against have other data. as I said lets build one and put it on the dyno then testing is exact and measurable.

Dyno testing has been offered in other places, to date no-one has put forward a vehicle for testing. Are they scared?

Call up your local welding supplier, ask for a welder that runs on HHO. You should hold the phone a little from your ear incase the laughter causes permanent hearing damage.
To steal a quote from a crappy movie. HHO is doing for BS what stonehenge did for rocks.

[icekayak]

Dyno testing has been offered in other places, to date no-one has put forward a vehicle for testing. Are they scared?

I'm happy to put mine forward just need to find a new lid for the jar cos its not sealing correctly...
I am skeptical but neutral at moment as to it working; so far it has not made a significant increase or decrease.
But at current fuel prices 2.189 happy to give anything a go...

Another suggestion was to put it onto a smaller engine like a lawnmower or something as it may be easier to test at home if it makes a difference...

[Steve_t647]

Lincon Uni have done this test with lawnmowers engines now (they ran continuous for 4 day's the plan was for 5 day's), their results 2 siezed and one still running. Their system was using external power to create the gas (no load on the engine) and it is not HHO being produced it is what I posted earlier.

The first mower was standard and it is still running (all the same mowers)
The second was HHO resultant gas additional to a std lawnmower no change in fueling (used slightly less fuel about 2%) Siezed (too hot)
The third was reduced fuel (running lean) with HHO resultant gas (tuned for gas output) (used lots less fuel and ran about 1/3 of the time the second mower ran) Siezed (too hot)

These were all in the same room all with the same fuel all getting air from the same outside source, with a proper cooling system the two lawnmowers may have coped better and from the exhaust analisys it looks like the third mower ran lean at random times due to production of gas inconsistencies, The second mower was the opposite at some point the temp's for production must have been pretty near ideal and the extra gas produced created the additional heat, all these engines were spinning a fan for load (and air movement to cool themselves and were all air cooled.

These results are as far as the uni is going, the damage to the second lawnmower is repairable but the third needs parts and more work.

As with anything the results were a one off test and have not been repeated not all variables were monitored and the the one off result is as far as the univercity wish to take the experiment (read they don't want to buy 3 more engines)

[pagar]

thank you for once some useful info so I need to up my cooling, new it would run hotter but not that much hotter, by any chance does the study you mention say they were four stroke mowers? cause if two stroke I can see it siezing not only being from heat alone but aslo because the extra burn of the HHO is likely to be burning the oil in the fuel too far for it to remain a lube for the cylinder (this is important cause my test engine in my shed will be two stroke for the first play. As to bacon above I am on the fence and not saying 100% that it works, but I, like others, are ready and willing to try and find new and better sources of fuel rather than beat my club on my chest in my cave and say the world is flat and it cannot be done. I would ask that if you do not have any practacle helpful things to sudjest that you could please keep your negitivity to yourself as I prefer to try and try again rather than continually keep getting told it won't work. thank you

[KiwiBacon]

As to bacon above I am on the fence and not saying 100% that it works, but I, like others, are ready and willing to try and find new and better sources of fuel rather than beat my club on my chest in my cave and say the world is flat and it cannot be done. I would ask that if you do not have any practacle helpful things to sudjest that you could please keep your negitivity to yourself as I prefer to try and try again rather than continually keep getting told it won't work. thank you

So you'd rather we sit there and let people waste time and money siezing their engines?

All I can say is, you were warned. Extra cooling will not save your engine from melting, especially if you run it lean as that lawnmower was above.

[Steve_t647]

4 stroke sorry forgot to mention that, they were Briggs and Stratton 700 series and you are making accetylene this is where the heat comes from and possibly why the fuel lubrication may be breaking down the gas is unstable due to the triple bond (Carbon - Hydrogen - - - Hydrogen - Carbon) this is where the production (output) amount varies and where it could form other chemicals.

Nothing was done to the timing on these engines so adjusting the timing for higher octane fuel could give a better power curve. This test was just to see if it could replace a portion of fuel.

I have asked for them to pass accetylene through petrol vapour to see what is produced, the Uni declined saying they have taken the experiment as far as they wish to prove the theroy.

[pagar]

no I am saying if you have something useful that may help develop the concept such as the above lawn mower info please feel free to share, telling us it cannot be done and we should just spend $200+ dollars a week in gas (and yes I am spending that at least a week between my day car, my wifes car and my 4x4 toy) is not helpful, yes I know others have tried and learning from others failiers is helpful but simply saying it won't work is not. the theory is there and is plausable enough that adding hydrogen to the fuel will help increase power and efficency, it is only the how that needs fixing. the only reason petrol was used as a fuel for early cars was because it was a byproduct from making lube oils thus cheap and available. now it is not cheap and oil reserves will run out eventually. there are options of running hydrogen with other fuel types to lower the burn temp which are also yet to be studied to there full potential. so every obsticle may well be overcome. who know's I may dedicate my life to the cause and end up with nothing. but I could equally end up creating cheap fuel in my shed and free the world from our obsesion with oil and the control of the us oil barons...... HHHHHmmmmmm I sound like a greeny all warm and fuzzy

[pagar]

thank you steve, I will watch my temp gauges to see what the effect is and also try adding lower octane combustables to the fuel mix to reduce either that or boost compresion to about 25+ to one ha ha ha ha would make a mean ass gocart till it blew up

[Steve_t647]

One of my first posts was suggesting Accetylene as an alternative easily produced fuel, I still believe that brewing your own alcohol and putting it through a still is the only real alternative. High sugar crops can be grown for Ethanol production like they do in Mexico and the resultant waste is still viable as animal feed.

Alcohol (100 proof) and a 25% mix of petrol is what they run in Mexico because they cannot afford normal petrol, if the govt allowed more then 10% of our fuel to be Alcohol (regulated because the added Alcohol has no road tax but increases the volume of fuel by said %age) then the fuel companies would put more alcohol in.

Beer production would not be affected as low proof alcohol is a by product with the amount of fuel alcohol we use it would become cheaper, spirits could become more expencive but fuel will drop and we would controll it as everything grown is done inside New Zealand except the last 25% of oil based fuel.

Oh and your car or Go cart will not get drunk, so any crashing would still be put down to your fault, I do wonder if the smell of burnt Alcohol everywhere would make the electronic sniffer the police use go mental

[pagar]

in stead if D.I.C. would it be I.C.D.C. in control of a drunk car???

[KiwiBacon]

Alcohol (100 proof) and a 25% mix of petrol is what they run in Mexico because they cannot afford normal petrol, if the govt allowed more then 10% of our fuel to be Alcohol (regulated because the added Alcohol has no road tax but increases the volume of fuel by said %age) then the fuel companies would put more alcohol in.

It's not tax that stops them adding alcohol, it's the effect on plastic and rubber engine components. The govt will have no problem taxing whatever is sold at the pump.

Ethanol is the fuel of the future IMO and the petrol engine is going the way of the dinosaur. Scania have a diesel engine with a static compression ratio of 28:1 and boost on top of that. It burns ethanol at an efficiency slightly better than our current state of the art diesels and burns cleaner due to the more volatile fuel.

Burning the same ethanol in a petrol engine will get you half as far.

[pagar]

interesting point of the ethanol (think I spelt that wrong) but correct me if I am wrong but isn't ethanol a byproduct of brewed biodesiel? I'm sure one of the guys I spoke to about commercial bidiesel it was disposal of the ethanol that would be an issue for comercial biodiesel brewing would be the storage and disposal of the excess ethanol. I can remember thinking at the time why would you not be able to sell it to the fuel company? now for a taxing question anyone good on law? does the road tax law state diesel vehicles must pay road tax? therfore technically do I need to pay road user charges if I run my cruiser on brewed vegie oil? its not diesel legally speaking as it is not made from crude oil???

[Heath]

I think you are paying for the damage lugging that dirty great oil burning lump of iron does to the road. That was the impression Auntie Helen gave when she commented on RUC. Of course if your vehicle weighs over 4.5 tonne (someone correct me if I am wrong) it doesn't matter if you burn diesel or petrol you pay RUC. So petrol users get stung twice.

Heath

[KiwiBacon]

interesting point of the ethanol (think I spelt that wrong) but correct me if I am wrong but isn't ethanol a byproduct of brewed biodesiel? I'm sure one of the guys I spoke to about commercial bidiesel it was disposal of the ethanol that would be an issue for comercial biodiesel brewing would be the storage and disposal of the excess ethanol. I can remember thinking at the time why would you not be able to sell it to the fuel company? now for a taxing question anyone good on law? does the road tax law state diesel vehicles must pay road tax? therfore technically do I need to pay road user charges if I run my cruiser on brewed vegie oil? its not diesel legally speaking as it is not made from crude oil???

I think you mean Glycerin as the byproduct from biodiesel.
Ethanol can be made out of anything that has sugars, Brazil grows a lot of sugarbeet for their ethanol industry.

Road tax is paid if you drive a heavy vehicle (over 3.5 ton) or use a fuel that has no road tax in it. Electric cars have to pay road tax too.

[pagar]

sort of, if you are over 4.5 tonne (not positive about the weight it starts from I thought it was 3.5) you pay road user charges but if it is for personal use ie a motor home, not comercial you can claim it back. is there a government levey on LPG? my biggest bug bear of the petrol tax is thatevery time you fill your lawn mower, chainsaw, weedwacker, boat etc etc etc you pay for roads, I think fuel should not be taxed eveyone should pay per k.

[smurf182]

I, like others, are ready and willing to try and find new and better sources of fuel rather than beat my club on my chest in my cave and say the world is flat and it cannot be done. I would ask that if you do not have any practacle helpful things to sudjest that you could please keep your negitivity to yourself as I prefer to try and try again rather than continually keep getting told it won't work. thank you

LOL. I'd rather beat my chest than stick my head in the sand.

[pagar]

bugger thought I might be a smart arse and not pay road user's therefore shouldn't a hybrid have to pay a portional road users? mind you those who have to drive them are paying the price of shame driving a prius..... oh that is so mean of me. isn't it funny every generation seems to get a new car to take the piss out of, first was the skoda (that funny looking thing with the three wheel stud and rear engine, then of corse the mighty lada, now we have jokes about prius. ooppps getting way off topic. now as to smurf my head is not in the sand but now that you mention it you can make fuel from sand. silica turned to silicon then burn. don't know how to make it go bang bang though.

[KiwiBacon]

sort of, if you are over 4.5 tonne (not positive about the weight it starts from I thought it was 3.5) you pay road user charges but if it is for personal use ie a motor home, not comercial you can claim it back. is there a government levey on LPG? my biggest bug bear of the petrol tax is thatevery time you fill your lawn mower, chainsaw, weedwacker, boat etc etc etc you pay for roads, I think fuel should not be taxed eveyone should pay per k.

Claim baack RUC for personal use.

[Steve_t647]

OK how many recreational 4wd owners keep an accurate log book and submit it to claim back the off road km, work did it but it took a lot of of work signing the 4wd on an off the road destinations distance covered time etc

[pagar]

on petrol vehicles that have to have ruc's that are not comercial ie petrol powered buses converted to motor homes. not talking about diesel ones. and no I never bother claiming back my ruc's for off road not worth the paperwork. A mate of mine should cause his is up to date eventhough he trailers his 70 series everywhere, never seen him drive it on the road.

[2MEKE]

my biggest bug bear of the petrol tax is that every time you fill your lawn mower, chainsaw, weedwacker, boat etc etc etc you pay for roads

you're entitled to a refund of the excise duty and GST on petrol (but not diesel) used as fuel in a commercial vessel....but not recreational boats!!

I think fuel should not be taxed everyone should pay per k

sounds fair to me

[Engineer]

are you using stainless anode an cathode witha liquid solution to produce your hydrogen?

Ryan

[nivaman]

I would think global warming is the biggest load of crap so far

Agreed

[nivaman]

The units made do not have to store the gas, the units make it and then the engine uses it straight away, no need to store it.
With Hydrogen assist it does give the engine a bit more omph, not much mind but it is there.
With the rising fuel prices i think it doesn't hurt to try different things in the hope that at least one will work, you can be damn sure the fuel company's don't want engines to be fuel efficient as in my mind they stand to loose profit for the share holders which is a kind of round about way of thinking things through, assume you have a 200mpg k/l car, my theory is that you don't have to fill up as often which is good for your pocket as well as the oil company's as the oil lasts longer and the oil company's can stretch out the oil reserves longer and make more profit in the longer term instead of the short term.
With fuel cells the theory is sound but they are built so general public cannot make their own hydrogen and put it in the cell them selves and need to buy the hydrogen already made, water cannot be taxed (but can be metered and bought and sold) and making your own hydrogen stops the tax which government do not like, hence the reason for fuel cells.
The above is gross generalizations and assumptions and i do not assume it to be correct.

[pagar]

Ha Ha I love the disclaimer at the end there Nav, I agree any saving in the pocket has got to be good. I had an interesting club meet at a Dynotuners the other week and the most interesting point he made was that most vehicles when set up at the factory are De-tuned for low octain fuel ie about 86 so they will run in the out back of ausie and central america etc etc so by adding a piggy back computer tu adjust the fuel air mix and the timing will save on average around 10% fuel and increase HP about the same. He then put a jeep on the dyno and ran it up four times with factory setting and again with piggy back on and the change was very impressive, the torque curve mved up and the HP was up around 11% and the fuel went down almost 13% which was fairy amazing. the other think he said was that the only engines that should be run on 91 are rotories and piston engines with a very short stroke IE the imp motor and motor bikes. I have since fueled my Jag three times with that new Vpower and have gotten my average fuel consuption down from 17.6 ltrs per 100K down to 15.8 ltrs per 100K and all tank loads have been with the same runs Ie work and back daily and nothing out on the open road. has more get up and go to, and no I have not been gentler on the go pedal (I wouldn't know how too) will be starting the build on the first of my Daihatsu Max's next week (360cc 2 stroke Micro Cars) and will start hydro gas unit build to go with it.

[KiwiBacon]

you can be damn sure the fuel company's don't want engines to be fuel efficient as in my mind they stand to loose profit for the share holders

You can be damn sure the oil companies have no say in how efficient car engines can be.
Fuel economy is a major selling point for cars, it always has been but more so these days, for industrial engines it always has been (they publish fuel consumption figures).

But the conspiracy theory types who believe this stuff aren't easily convinced otherwise. That's why we have big-oil conspiracies, 200mpg carburettors and hiclones.

[nivaman]

I would think turbulance in the combustion chamber would be a good thing to break up more fuel and if hydrogen is also introduced that would only add to the mix in terms of extra bang?.
As i understand it hydrogen burns very quickly, so petrol is needed to slow the burn somewhat or steam could be used?.

[KiwiBacon]

So, after 10 pages. Where are the positive results?

[lneil]

The latest thing I saw was a few nights ago on TV, where they did a follow-up on a guy they had had testing these on his car.

I hadn't seen the run-up to this, so I don't know how scientifically pure the tests were, or the guy's credentials, but the end result was pretty straightforward: After a couple of minor explosions and failures he got a system up and running for some time.

Result? No detectable difference. As 'That Guy' says on his ads; "Now theres a nice surprise."