WAS fume'ing (now more of a flaming thread...)

[KiwiBacon]

Not disputing that LPG injection can give useful HP gains, (at questionable reliability) but after 7 pages of waffle and still no dyno sheet showing 970Nm from a 4.2 diesel 6cyl.....

Someone needs to put-up or shut-up.

I suspect we'll have at least another 7 pages of cheerleading before we see a dyno sheet to backup this

huge Hp gain

The numbers are the point, because without numbers it's all BS.

You'd pay several grand to get a 5% gain?

Maaaate, everone reading this thread knows that the only reason you are jumping up and down and waving a flag about these dyno figures is so you can save face.
You have been proven wrong time and time again on this thread, diesel fumigation does work and can be done safely.

You just want to see the dyno figures so you can say that you suspected Wopass remembered wrong, and you were right that 1000nm was B.S. That way you might not look so bad eh???

ITS TOO LATE.

Hell, the dyno sheet could be anywhere, and is most likely not in the glove box of said cruiser. You are pretty unlikely to ever see it, so don't get your hopes up.

Wopass ain't gonna look any worse for not finding the sheet.

But your starting look pretty bloody silly now, especially with your repetative wineing about not seeing the actual chart

Oh wait, how do we know thats the actual chart from the truck??

Ohhh, the dyno mustn't calibrated right....

The tester calculated the wrong

I can see what your gonna say if the dyno sheet apears

If the dyno sheet does appear, it'll be spread around for public consumption at great mirth.
If it doesn't, then wopass is talking unsubstantiated BS.

So far we have.
wopass
vvega
dieselboy

All grouping together to pick on me and trying to gloss over this 970Nm claim. vvega with his half an engineering degree knows better but won't admit it, I'm not sure the other two know how silly this claim is.

[Sadam_Husain]

I know nothing about this shit and I'll probably get some flak from it but was that a 9kg gas bottle with a hose stuffed up the air intake in that video?

[J_Dub]

This is like Jerry Springer

[wopass]

:lol: Nice fogger kit no wonder you think LPG is shit
Sorry , couldnt help myself, Ok , Thats it , no more posting, im done .

X2

HAhhahahahhah

aahhahah...hahhahahahha

ohh tears rolling down face

thats some gold right there

thanks bacon, that was a good laugh, squirting LPG via a hose up the intake into a diesel engine at idle...

you are O for Orsum

[KiwiBacon]

I know nothing about this shit and I'll probably get some flak from it but was that a 9kg gas bottle with a hose stuffed up the air intake in that video?

Close, it was a 4kg gas bottle.

[KiwiBacon]

X2

HAhhahahahhah

aahhahah...hahhahahahha

ohh tears rolling down face

thats some gold right there

thanks bacon, that was a good laugh, squirting LPG via a hose up the intake into a diesel engine at idle...

you are O for Orsum

That is exactly what your lpg fogger kits do, it's amazing how few people realise this.

Where's your dyno chart?

[wopass]

So far we have.
wopass
vvega
dieselboy

All grouping together to pick on me and trying to gloss over this 970Nm claim. vvega with his half an engineering degree knows better but won't admit it, I'm not sure the other two know how silly this claim is.

hahhahahha

more gold...

poor you, fkn boo hoo

your wrong about the fume thats what this entire discusion is about, the 970nm CLAIM has fk all to do with the fact that the FUME works, just because you couldnt get yours to run with a BBQ bottle hose stuffed into it if you do it RIGHT with a propper set up (computor, boost sensor, heat sensor, LPG jet etc etc etc ) it works fine... but i guess you cant see that because of your BBQ bottle experiment

[KiwiBacon]

hahhahahha

more gold...

poor you, fkn boo hoo

your wrong about the fume thats what this entire discusion is about, the 970nm CLAIM has fk all to do with the fact that the FUME works, just because you couldnt get yours to run with a BBQ bottle hose stuffed into it if you do it RIGHT with a propper set up (computor, boost sensor, heat sensor, LPG jet etc etc etc ) it works fine... but i guess you cant see that because of your BBQ bottle experiment

The computer, boost sensor and heat sensor are there to only switch the lpg on when you can't hear it over the engine noise.
Think about it a little.
If a little bit of lpg detonates in a warm engine at idle, then it's a whole lot worse injecting more when the engine is under load.

There's no dispute that fumigation gives power, it's the side effects you guys are having problems with.

Was your 970Nm with or without lpg?

[vvega]

i mean honestly .. were do you think that 2kw of energy is going ?
there is no place for it to except into heat .. and loook OMG its detinating... comon ... seriouslyy ?

Do you have a clue how diesel engines work?
This is not a petrol, they don't die if you feed them more fuel, they speed up.

Diesels can only detonate if the fuel is added to the wrong place, that wrong place is the incoming air stream. I have just shown that LPG detonates (something which you and others have aggressively opposed) and now you're saying that I'm doing it wrong.

That's the problem, there is no way to introduce lpg to a diesel engine like mine in a way that it will not detonate. You can reduce the volumes until the symptoms are drowned out by the engines own noise and vibration, but that's all you can do.

The only way to introduce lpg to a diesel and not have it detonate is to inject it in exactly the same manner as diesel already is. None of these kits can do that.

did you not read my post at all ?
det happend because of incorect fueling
and nope i dont know #### all about diesels .. but i know this ... add to much fuel and your egt's go up
that means you have to much heat in the combustion chamber
.. and when you do that .. you have a flash point higher than that of lpg
on top of that .. you have n/a ?? motor .. and its clearly listed that they have are and have been extreamly problomatic and not worth doing

you make a video were you planly visable and uncontrably add far to much lpg and we all know that det is a symptom of that
yet you cant see that to stop the det all you needed to do was turn the lpg down to a level the engine could handle

all that video does is proves wopass right
i know you a smart man and you have a degree.. but that dosent mean you know anythign about tuning a vehical
and honestly what i saw there goes against every tuning priciple i have ever been taught

here are some question's
how much lpg is required to accerlate burn to a point before det
answer .. well from what ive read its about 2 % of total fuel volume relitively

SO your 2kw of lpg ment that to get your perfect mix you woudl need 400 odd kw of diesal to get the right mix

question
what would happen to your engine if you cranked in 400kw worth of diesal into it at idle ??
and then added yoru 2kw of lpg .....
your not useing it to fuel the engine ... your useing it to axcelerate burn
like adding nitro to methional .. well kinda .... 2% of nitro makes a MASSIVE differnce

[vvega]

oh and i know the fuel voulmes dont quite work like that but .. honestly .. i cannot be arsed working it all out for you to tell me its wrong

[KiwiBacon]

did you not read my post at all ?
det happend because of incorect fueling
and nope i dont know #### all about diesels .. but i know this ... add to much fuel and your egt's go up
that means you have to much heat in the combustion chamber
.. and when you do that .. you have a flash point higher than that of lpg
on top of that .. you have n/a ?? motor .. and its clearly listed that they have are and have been extreamly problomatic and not worth doing

Yes I read your post, it was clear you don't understand what's happening.

The compression temperature of a diesel engine is higher than the auto-ignition temp of lpg.

This is before and regardless of the amount of fuel being added.

Read the above several times, think about it until it's clear. LPG volume is close to irrelevant, it detonates when fed into a healthy diesel engine.
We are dealing with compression ignition, not spark ignition.

[Swamped]

Try reading these....Don't know if they're all applicable. They may or may not help.

OPERATION OF A TURBULENCE CHAMBER DIESEL ENGINE WITH LPG FUMIGATION FOR EXHAUST EMISSIONS CONTROL.
Lowi Jr., Alvin Source: SAE Special Publications

SUPPLEMENTARY FUELING OF FOUR-STROKE-CYCLE AUTOMOTIVE DIESEL ENGINES BY PROPANE FUMIGATION.
Lowi Jr., Alvin1 Source: SAE Special Publications

FUMIGATION OF A DIESEL ENGINE WITH LOW BTU GAS.
Ahmadi, M.1; Kittelson, D.B.1 Source: SAE Technical Paper Series, 1985

COMPARISON OF ETHANOL FUMIGATION SYSTEMS FOR A DIESEL ENGINE.
Shropshire, Geoffrey J.; Bashford, Leonard L. Source: Agricultural engineering, v 65, n 5, p 17-23, May

Bi-fuel system for power generation
Haight, Brent Source: Diesel Progress North American Edition, v 68, n 5, p 14-16, May 2002

PROPANE/DIESEL INJECTION SYSTEM FOR DIESEL TRUCK ENGINES.
Eyre, F.W.1; Nikolaiczuk, P.1 Source: American Society of Mechanical Engineers (Paper), 1987

Experimental investigation of the effect of fumigated fuel on the performance of a diesel engine
Balasubramanian, A.; Selvakumar, P. Source: Proceedings of the National Conference on I.C. Engines and Combustion, p 115, 1992

Some of the older journals are concerned about engine damage and loss of reliability but the newer articles seem to be able to get around this problem (I didn't read them all), the abstracts were just related to this topic. One company began development of an engine management system to compensate for the detonation problem but that info was quite dated. I assume its since been done.
I'm sure theres the equivelant of your sought after dyno sheet in one of those articles to prove or disprove whatever. Hopefully theres no tears....

[vvega]

did you not read my post at all ?
det happend because of incorect fueling
and nope i dont know #### all about diesels .. but i know this ... add to much fuel and your egt's go up
that means you have to much heat in the combustion chamber
.. and when you do that .. you have a flash point higher than that of lpg
on top of that .. you have n/a ?? motor .. and its clearly listed that they have are and have been extreamly problomatic and not worth doing

Yes I read your post, it was clear you don't understand what's happening.

The compression temperature of a diesel engine is higher than the auto-ignition temp of lpg.

This is before and regardless of the amount of fuel being added.

Read the above several times, think about it until it's clear. LPG volume is close to irrelevant, it detonates when fed into a healthy diesel engine.

no lpg volume is critical
there are many who have sucess .. any why . because they have the correct volume of lpg
you have the wrong volume and you think its for some other reason you get det ? the fact that everywhere its stated that if you have to much lpg you will get det ??




go back and read my original info posts they will explain that to you
you do realise that .. there are many success storys with dyno plots avalible online.. so .. basically you cannot be correct
no matter how hard you try to twist and turn is distort facts .. its been done and was and is successful
thats it end of story you cant dispute it

its like tring to say the world is flat after its been discoved to be pear shapped

can you not see that ?
are you honestly so blind to your own ego that you just cannot see it ?

you clearly dont posess tuning fundimentals at all , so really you oly have a opinion to offer
you videa proves that one .. you dont know what your doing .. and 2 .. if thats your testing ideaolagy i seriously question the fact you have a degree.. because im sure as hell when i was at uni.. if i had of shown that,,, i would have got laughed the #### out of there

much like whats happening to you now
do you not realise that half of ORE is on msn right now laughing there faces off at this complete display of toys been thrown out of the cot ....
seriouslys ??
do we really need to keep going with this because really ..... its become a running joke

and honestly i think your video was actually made for the point your tring to prove
and knowing that you cant let anything go and will do ANYTHING to get a win .. i have no doubt you delibratly added way to much lpg into the system to falsify a point

thats how far this has gone kiwi .. you honestly have NO credibility left with a pile of members
its all just self destructive from this point on

[KiwiBacon]

Try reading these....Don't know if they're all applicable. They may or may not help.

Some of the older journals are concerned about engine damage and loss of reliability but the newer articles seem to be able to get around this problem (I didn't read them all), the abstracts were just related to this topic. One company began development of an engine management system to compensate for the detonation problem but that info was quite dated. I assume its since been done.
I'm sure theres the equivelant of your sought after dyno sheet in one of those articles to prove or disprove whatever. Hopefully theres no tears....

Good find, I've come across about three of those but they were all pay to get a copy. Do you have access to the full text from any of them?

I'd be very interested in observations betwen idi (swirl chamber) and di engines. Mine is direct injection, idi's usually run a higher compression ratio which will make them even more prone to detonation.

Interestingly the current research into HCCI (homogeneous charge compression ignition) engines is right on this subject. How to get the fuel burning when you want, how you want without detonation or external ignition.

[KiwiBacon]

no lpg volume is critical
there are many who have sucess .. any why . because they have the correct volume of lpg
you have the wrong volume and you think its for some other reason you get det ? the fact that everywhere its stated that if you have to much lpg you will get det ??

go back and read my original info posts they will explain that to you
you do realise that .. there are many success storys with dyno plots avalible online.. so .. basically you cannot be correct
no matter how hard you try to twist and turn is distort facts .. its been done and was and is successful
thats it end of story you cant dispute it

its like tring to say the world is flat after its been discoved to be pear shapped

can you not see that ?
are you honestly so blind to your own ego that you just cannot see it ?

you clearly dont posess tuning fundimentals at all , so really you oly have a opinion to offer
you videa proves that one .. you dont know what your doing .. and 2 .. if thats your testing ideaolagy i seriously question the fact you have a degree.. because im sure as hell when i was at uni.. if i had of shown that,,, i would have got laughed the #### out of there

much like whats happening to you now
do you not realise that half of ORE is on msn right now laughing there faces off at this complete display of toys been thrown out of the cot ....
seriouslys ??
do we really need to keep going with this because really ..... its become a running joke

and honestly i think your video was actually made for the point your tring to prove
and knowing that you cant let anything go and will do ANYTHING to get a win .. i have no doubt you delibratly added way to much lpg into the system to falsify a point

thats how far this has gone kiwi .. you honestly have NO credibility left with a pile of members
its all just self destructive from this point on

You're still missing the point but of the cheerleaders you're the one who may have enough understanding to work it out.

Try to stay off the insults and BS at least long enough for that. Because everytime you post up like the above it looks like you're sounding off from frustration at not understanding. Maybe you're worried about looking dumb by having to ask, I don't know.

Do you know what the compression temperatures and pressures are in a diesel?
Do you know what the pre-ignition temperature of lpg is?

"No" answers are fine, I can explain if you need that.

[vvega]

i am fairly frustrated
you have no idea how frustrating it is to see a man that claims to know so much fall over on somethign so stupid and fundimental

[KiwiBacon]

i am fairly frusted
you have no idea how frustraing it is to see a man that claims to know so much fall over on somethign so stupid and fundimental

Fundamentals.
1. What is the compression temp on an 18:1 engine?
2. What is the pre-ignition point of the fumigation gas?

[haynzy]

Faaaark is this still goin on who gives a rodents anus

[vvega]

Material Safety Data Sheet Product Name: L.P.Gas
(Sheet No. 005A) Dated 8th October 2001

Not classified as hazardous according to criteria of Worksafe Australia.

R:11 Highly Flammable
S:9 Keep container in a well ventilated place
S:16 Keep away from sources of ignition – NO SMOKING
S:33 Take precautionary measures against statistic discharges


IDENTIFICATION

Product Name: L.P.Gas (Industrial)
Chemical Name: Mixture propane and propylene
Manufacturer’s Code:
UN Number: 1978 Petroleum Gases, Liquidfied
DG Class: 2.1 Flammable Gas
Packaging Group: Not applicable
Subsidiary Risk(s): None
Hazchem Code: 2 W E
EPG No.: Petroleum Gases, Liquified or 2A2
Poisons Schedule: None assigned
Uses: As a fuel, as a process gas.

Physical Description & Properties:

Appearance: Colourless gas Insoluble in water
Boiling Point: -42ºC
Melting Point: -188ºC
Vapour Pressure: >1,000mm Hg @ 25ºC
Volatiles: 100%
Evaporation Rate: no data
Odour: Characteristic odour of LPG.
(Propane is odourless and propylene is almost odourless, but small quantities of a mercaptan – usually butyl mercaptan – are added so that the mixture may be detected by smell, even at very low concentrates).
Vapour Density: Heavier than air
Weight per ml: 0.6g as the liquid
Flash Point: -104ºC
Flammability Limits: 2.0 – 11.0%
Auto-Ignition Temperature: 450ºC (propane)
455ºC (propylene)

deasel

5. FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
FLAMMABLE PROPERTIES:
FLASH POINT: > 125 oF (> 52 C) minimum PMCC
AUTOIGNITION POINT: 494 F (257 C)
OSHA/NFPA FLAMMABILITY CLASS: 2 (COMBUSTIBLE)


In the diesel engine, only air is introduced into the combustion chamber. The air is then compressed with a compression ratio typically between 15 and 22 resulting into a 40 bar (about 600 psi) pressure compared to 14 bar (about 200 psi) in the gasoline engine. This high compression heats the air to 550 °C (about 1000 °F)

[vvega]

Propane by itself resists self-ignition inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine due to it's high flash point and narrow fuel-to-air ratio. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400°C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500°C. In the small concentrations that LPG fumigation uses, the LPG mixture is not rich enough to be overly flammable and is more difficult to ignite. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385°C.),

from the first page of the threed

are we done yet >?
or are you still kicking the dead horse

[KiwiBacon]

Propane by itself resists self-ignition inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine due to it's high flash point and narrow fuel-to-air ratio. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400°C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500°C. In the small concentrations that LPG fumigation uses, the LPG mixture is not rich enough to be overly flammable and is more difficult to ignite. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385°C.),

from the first page of the threed

are we done yet >?
or are you still kicking the dead horse

Your first page you claimed 500C, you've just shown in the MSDS above that it's 450C.

Do you remember any adiabatic compression from second pro thermodynamics?
You'll need that to predict the compression temperature rise.

Start with:
293K (20C)
18:1 compression
101.3kPa

See what you get.

Then add in some heat soak and 22:1 compression for an IDI diesel.

[vvega]

yes BUT flashpoint is at stoich mixture not at a much reduced volume
ratio is important to flashpoint .
your not useing a stoich mixture so the flashpoint rises
i do know exactly what your saying ... but IMO you would have to experiment to work out the new realitive flashpoint to the concentration of gas

your theroy is proven in that case by adding a rich miture of lp gas to your engine
but turn the lpg supply down and regulate the supply to say 1% of what you had and you will see that the flashpoint changes
and the results will speek for themselves

you made the effort to do the first experiment
now go and do it again

also were you adding the lp as gas or as a liquid
also i belive that thats msd is it as stored as a liquid .. not as a gas

[haynzy]

guys you got it all wrong to travel through time you dont use lpg ya use a flux capicitor and if that doesnt work find ya selves an old phone booth

[KiwiBacon]

yes BUT flashpoint is at stoich mixture not at a much reduced volume
ratio is important to flashpoint .
your not useing a stoich mixture so the flashpoint rises
i do know exactly what your saying ... but IMO you would have to experiment to work out the new realitive flashpoint to the concentration of gas

your theroy is proven in that case by adding a rich miture of lp gas to your engine
but turn the lpg supply down and regulate the supply to say 1% of what you had and you will see that the flashpoint changes
and the results will speek for themselves

you made the effort to do the first experiment
now go and do it again

also were you adding the lp as gas or as a liquid
also i belive that thats msd is it as stored as a liquid .. not as a gas

If you want help with the maths, then ask and you'll get it.
Do you have the answer yet?

Flashpoint is when it changes from liquid to gas, it's on the MSDS as being -104C, that's not our problem though I suspect on a petrol engine it can be.
Autoignition point is the concerning one. 450C.

[vvega]

guys you got it all wrong to travel through time you dont use lpg ya use a flux capicitor and if that doesnt work find ya selves an old phone booth

sounds like some 88 mph action .. keen but i think my truck would #### off into the senery at that speed
lol

and no kiwi im not doing the math unless you have the right numbers
and i dont belive you do and that is probably why your comming to the wrong conculsion

[KiwiBacon]

guys you got it all wrong to travel through time you dont use lpg ya use a flux capicitor and if that doesnt work find ya selves an old phone booth

sounds like some 88 mph action .. keen but i think my truck would #### off into the senery at that speed
lol

and no kiwi im not doing the math unless you have the right numbers
and i dont belive you do and that is probably why your comming to the wrong conculsion

Did you not make it to second pro?

Adiabatic compression in air.
Compression ratio 18:1
Inlet pressure 101.3kpa.
Inlet temp 20C (293k).

Temp rise = compression ratio ^(cp/cv-1)
= 18^0.4
= 3.18 times the absolute starting temp.

Air temp at TDC
= 293*3.18
= 931K
= 658 degrees C.

We have a gas with an autoignition point of 450C.
We have a cylinder temperature of 658C without any fuel injected.

[vvega]

guys you got it all wrong to travel through time you dont use lpg ya use a flux capicitor and if that doesnt work find ya selves an old phone booth

sounds like some 88 mph action .. keen but i think my truck would #### off into the senery at that speed
lol

and no kiwi im not doing the math unless you have the right numbers
and i dont belive you do and that is probably why your comming to the wrong conculsion

Did you not make it to second pro?

Adiabatic compression in air.
Compression ratio 18:1
Inlet pressure 101.3kpa.
Inlet temp 20C (293k).

Temp rise = compression ratio ^(cp/cv-1)
= 18^0.4
= 3.18 times the absolute starting temp.

Air temp at TDC
= 293*3.18
= 931K
= 658 degrees C.

We have a gas with an autoignition point of 450C.
We have a cylinder temperature of 658C without any fuel injected.

whats is the flashpoint of 2% lpg and 98 % air

[darinz]

Autoignition point is the concerning one. 450C.

Simple question. Does the air fuel ratio have any impact on the ability of the LPG to ignite?

[vvega]

Autoignition point is the concerning one. 450C.

Simple question. Does the air fuel ratio have any impact on the ability of the LPG to ignite?

yeap

PRODUCT NAME: LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS
UN Number: 1075
Other Names: LP GAS ; LPG ; Propane/Butane Mix
Hazchem Code: 2WE
Dangerous Goods Class: 2.1
Subsidiary Risk: None
Emergency Procedures Guide: 2A2
Poisons Schedule: none allocated
USE:
A flammable gas used as a fuel or propellant, normally stored under pressure in liquid form.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION/PROPERTIES:
Appearance: Rapidly evaporating liquid or gas with rotten cabbage - like smell.
Initial Boiling Point: - 42 to 0 deg C.
Melting Point: Not applicable
Specific Gravity: 0.49 to 0.57 (liquid)
Solubility in Water: Very slight
Vapour Pressure at 20 Deg C: 107 to 730 kpag
Flash Point: -104 to 60 deg C
Lower Flammability Limit: 1.9 % in air
Upper Flammability Limit: 9.5 % in air
Vapour density: 1.5 to 2.0 air = 1
% Volatiles: 100 %
OTHER PROPERTIES:
Evaporation Rate: Rapid
Auto ignition Point: 482 to 5820 deg C

Flammability Limit, in Air, % by Volume : LEL : 2.2 UEL : 9.5

as i said unless you use the correct figures .. you will get a incorect answer
below 1.9%-2.2% and lpg will not ignite in open air

source : http://www.gameco.com.au/index.php?mod=page&idp=25
: http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/NR/rdon ... ropane.pdf

[DaveM]

are we done yet >?
or are you still kicking the dead horse

The more you reply, the longer this drags on
Can't believe theres 5 pages more than when I read it last All I know is guys in oz use it, and while there is a subsidy from the government over there, it may not include diesel vehicles for much longer