Offroad-Express

Bulletproof wrote:For some Club Captain in a 4 wheel drive club to give Authority to a lifted truck when they haven't got a clue about design and handling is a different issue because of safety on the road.

You're still not getting it are you Richard, the authority card is to prove that you are a "4 wheeler" not just some muppet that wants a jacked up truck to look cool. The club captain is not making a judgment call on the safety of the vehicle, he wont even have to see the vehicle.

Bulletproof wrote:All lifted trucks whether they belong to a club or not should carry on being tested by a Certifier as is presently done.

Thats exactly what will happen, Then you show your authority card at WOF time to prove your not a mall crawler.

The authority card is not a club sanctioned substitute for certification, like you seem to think.

LOLYF wrote:

Bulletproof wrote:For some Club Captain in a 4 wheel drive club to give Authority to a lifted truck when they haven't got a clue about design and handling is a different issue because of safety on the road.

You're still not getting it are you Richard, the authority card is to prove that you are a "4 wheeler" not just some muppet that wants a jacked up truck to look cool. The club captain is not making a judgment call on the safety of the vehicle, he wont even have to see the vehicle.

Bulletproof wrote:All lifted trucks whether they belong to a club or not should carry on being tested by a Certifier as is presently done.

Thats exactly what will happen, Then you show your authority card at WOF time to prove your not a mall crawler.

The authority card is not a club sanctioned substitute for certification, like you seem to think.

x2

Motorsport New Zealand's Authority Cards are for the vehicle NOT the driver.

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/lvv-motorsport-authority-cards

I can't see what is wrong with a jacked up truck to go to the mall as long as it has been tested as road worthy. It is no different to someone who drives a hot rod.

Why should they be outlawed as long as they are safe. Everyone to their own is what I say.

It has nothing to do with the NZFWDA

Cheers Richard

Blair_ wrote:Motorsport New Zealand's Authority Cards are for the vehicle NOT the driver.

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/lvv-motorsport-authority-cards

To quote from Trail Torque March 2012:
'apply for an Authority card, allowing Lifts above what will be permitted by the general public, and to have full harness belts in road legal vehicles.'

And from Tonys' previous post:

Mudde1 wrote:Authority card is Neither a law change or a rule change, simply making use of rules that have been in place for many years.
if you vehicle is subject to an Authority card, it will need to shown to get a Wof or when stopped by Police. No need to be the person named on the card, simply that it has a current card which should be carried in the vehicle.
Tony Burgess
President NZFWDA

I haven't seen the full document, but this appears to be more than just the driver to me.

Bulletproof wrote:I can't see what is wrong with a jacked up truck to go to the mall as long as it has been tested as road worthy. It is no different to someone who drives a hot rod.

Why should they be outlawed as long as they are safe. Everyone to their own is what I say.

It has nothing to do with the NZFWDA

Cheers Richard

Gee you guys are so stuck up youselves, you just don't get it.

1/. LTSA looked at banning ALL lifts in 4WD vehicles on basis that they are unsafe, unstable on teh road etc.
2/. A group of enthusiasts said hang on there is a need for these vehicles to be lifted when using off road.
3/. So LTSA asked for a system to ensure only those who really need such lifts, i.e. members of 4WD clubs and genuine off road users, to have the use of lifted vehicles.
4/. NZFWDA have come up with proposals along the lines of what LTSA requested, that is the proposed authority card, that is acceptable to LTSA and LVVTA.
5/. Why NZFWDA?, because it is the largest recognised 4WD group within NZ that actually gets off its arse and gets involved for the benefit of 4WD'ers in NZ.

This is a quick and brief summary, get it into your heads that without some input from NZFWDA then we maybe facing an even worse situation and a complete ban of body lifted, suspension lifted vehicles that we all want to drive off road.

If you don't like it, move to Australia or somewhere else where the regulations are even tougher.

and finally stop having a dig at the NZFWDA and their representatives over this matter and face up to reality. Its not their preference to do this but something that had to be done to allow us to continually modifiy our vehicles in the way we wish.

Better still join them and help in the fights for rights to own, use 4WD vehicles and the places to go.

Ralfie wrote:
1/. LTSA looked at banning ALL lifts in 4WD vehicles on basis that they are unsafe, unstable on teh road etc.

Everyone keeps repeating these words so can someone produce the official document that LTSA was looking at banning all lifts.

Or is it just hear say with no substance ? Where is the proof ?

Because I have a lifted truck I am not going to let this die until I know the facts. And another thing for sure I will not be joining the Ass. to keep my truck on the road to get a WOF


Cheers Richard

Bulletproof wrote:

Ralfie wrote:
1/. LTSA looked at banning ALL lifts in 4WD vehicles on basis that they are unsafe, unstable on teh road etc.

Everyone keeps repeating these words so can someone produce the official document that LTSA was looking at banning all lifts.

Or is it just hear say with no substance ? Where is the proof ?

Because I have a lifted truck I am not going to let this die until I know the facts. And another thing for sure I will not be joining the Ass. to keep my truck on the road to get a WOF


Cheers Richard

So Tony, where are the facts?? Sick of you posting and not backing up with facts. Post away but back up your arguement

do i need a card for my range rover??? i can gain 120mm of lift by pushing a button.
and how do u police a rule when there is no standard for hight (eg nz new 80,s are different from imported 80s).
also i thought manz had cards for cages and harness's as theses required a little eduction on using.
not every one can just hop in and drive due to non standard safty restrant. this falling back on the owner to educate others in using said road going race car.
seems a little sus that it is not a nzfwda inspired rule but they will not shear who is creating it.
what about the poor farmer who need a lift and larger tyres just to get around his farm and to go to the shops.
Why dose he have to join just to use the card he dosnt need there insurance he has his own.

I'm not attacking NZFWDA, just trying to find facts.

So ... question... as long as said "muppet" pays said fee, joins a NZFWDA affiliated club, he can still drive his certified lifted truck to the mall???
What about the hunter, fisherman, farmer etc... oh... they have to pay said fee, join a NZFWDA affiliated club, to carry on driving there already certified vehicle on the road???

Again, who proposed the "no lifted 4wd" on our roads concept??? Just point me in the right direction, I've been hunting and can't find who.
Jeremy

So Tony, where are the facts?? Sick of you posting and not backing up with facts. Post away but back up your arguement

And???

So Tony, where are the facts?? Sick of you posting and not backing up with facts. Post away but back up your arguement

And???

tallsam66 wrote:Im going to the next combined meeting next week... Going to see what they know and how the clubs feel about thngs and to get something going.....from what ive head so far from the members there are alot of pissed off people.

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

[/quote]


Tallsam - great idea please do...I think it should be tabled at Combined and some serious enquiries initiated at our end to establish the credibility of it. Furthermore if the planned policy is as flawed as it seems then we can challenge or consult positively and hopefully improve on the proposed changes.

Look what Combined achieved with DOC recently...DOC saw 4wd's as muppet vehicles with muppet drivers (and there are some muppet cases to be honest), DOC and their minister came away from that Hanmer trip with a whole different attitude to club 4wds and how they manage themselves.
They were very very impressed.

Here is a another question for the NZFWDA members who will be the only ones allowed a lifted road legal truck by having an Authority Card.

What happens when you sell that truck ?

Is your market limited to the 2100 other members ?

Do you have to lower the truck again to sell to ordinary people who don't belong to the NZFWDA ?

A lot of lift jobs are not reversible like my one with a Nissan front end under a hilux

The Authority Card can't be sold with the truck because you have to buy that every year by being in the NZFWDA

Cheers Richard

Bulletproof wrote:Here is a another question for the NZFWDA members who will be the only ones allowed a lifted road legal truck by having an Authority Card.

What happens when you sell that truck ?

Is your market limited to the 2100 other members ?

Do you have to lower the truck again to sell to ordinary people who don't belong to the NZFWDA ?

A lot of lift jobs are not reversible like my one with a Nissan front end under a hilux

The Authority Card can't be sold with the truck because you have to buy that every year by being in the NZFWDA

Cheers Richard

The same way people with MANZ authority cards and NZHRA cards sell there cars
This system is nothing new it has just been adopted from other working systems.

LOLYF wrote:

The same way people with MANZ authority cards and NZHRA cards sell there cars
This system is nothing new it has just been adopted from other working systems.

That is what I thought. A very small market of a couple of thousand people in NZFWDA clubs

Cheers Richard

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/consultation/LVV%20code%20-%20Issue%208%20-%201%20August%202012.pdf

Latest version of DRAFT LVV code. Section 2.12(1) is about the Authority Card, basically states the vehicle is clearly identified by the Auth card, changes are clearly identified by Auth card AND the Auth card clearly identifies the individual requiring use of the vehicle for the specific purpose.

I suggest you read the whole document rather than just specific bits.

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/consultation/LVV%20code%20-%20Issue%208%20-%201%20August%202012.pdf

Latest version of DRAFT LVV code. Section 2.12(1) is about the Authority Card, basically states the vehicle is clearly identified by the Auth card, changes are clearly identified by Auth card AND the Auth card clearly identifies the individual requiring use of the vehicle for the specific purpose.

I suggest you read the whole document rather than just specific bits.

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of an Authority Card was to allow as an example

A Rally type car to drive on the road to an Event or a Hot Rod to attend a meeting but not to be used as a daily vehicle for everyday use.

If this is true a lot of 4 wheel drivers would be left without transport because their 4 wheel drive is also their daily truck.

Cheers Richard

Bulletproof wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of an Authority Card was to allow as an example

A Rally type car to drive on the road to an Event or a Hot Rod to attend a meeting but not to be used as a daily vehicle for everyday use.

If this is true a lot of 4 wheel drivers would be left without transport because their 4 wheel drive is also their daily truck.

Cheers Richard

you are wrong again. Again You are again making things up that are not there. who ever is giving you this information is clearly some one on the very fringes who has only a very little idea of reality.
In regards to wanting to see all the documents related to this, i have done some checks and have the following to say.
The history of stronger control of lifted vehicles by transport agency goes back at least 15 years and the history of LVVTA and Authority cards goes back at least 1/4 century. It involves a massive amount of effort by a massive number of people and thousands and thousands of documents over a long period of time. very few of the documents are in electronic form as this predates mass email. If you want to see all the documents involved i am prepared to make them available to you to study, however I estimate that just putting the documents in one place will take between 200 and 300 hours. less than 1% of the hours required to produce them. given that we are a volunteer organization and this is not something anyone normally undertakes for free I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that you pay for the time involved.are you prepared to do that?
You seem to think that you will be able to achieve something by attending a single meeting and laying a complaint. last time this was discussed on this forum you complained a lot, but did nothing. you are about 15 years too late getting involved.
If you have any reasonable questions feel free to contact me so i can give you the true facts. but i will no longer respond to ranting and raving from someone who refuses to listen to reason.
Tony.

Mudde1 wrote:

Bulletproof wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of an Authority Card was to allow as an example

A Rally type car to drive on the road to an Event or a Hot Rod to attend a meeting but not to be used as a daily vehicle for everyday use.

If this is true a lot of 4 wheel drivers would be left without transport because their 4 wheel drive is also their daily truck.

Cheers Richard

you are wrong again. Again You are again making things up that are not there. who ever is giving you this information is clearly some one on the very fringes who has only a very little idea of reality.
In regards to wanting to see all the documents related to this, i have done some checks and have the following to say.
The history of stronger control of lifted vehicles by transport agency goes back at least 15 years and the history of LVVTA and Authority cards goes back at least 1/4 century. It involves a massive amount of effort by a massive number of people and thousands and thousands of documents over a long period of time. very few of the documents are in electronic form as this predates mass email. If you want to see all the documents involved i am prepared to make them available to you to study, however I estimate that just putting the documents in one place will take between 200 and 300 hours. less than 1% of the hours required to produce them. given that we are a volunteer organization and this is not something anyone normally undertakes for free I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that you pay for the time involved.are you prepared to do that?
You seem to think that you will be able to achieve something by attending a single meeting and laying a complaint. last time this was discussed on this forum you complained a lot, but did nothing. you are about 15 years too late getting involved.
If you have any reasonable questions feel free to contact me so i can give you the true facts. but i will no longer respond to ranting and raving from someone who refuses to listen to reason.
Tony.

I am not interested in hundred of pages of the Documents that the NZFWDA has from 25years ago.

I am only interested in the official government papers on the law change as it currently stands and how it is going to affect me from a certain date and that is why I have Emailed for this last week

So I will just wait and see what turns up before doing a few phone calls.

Cheers Richard

Bulletproof wrote:
I am not interested in hundred of pages of the Documents that the NZFWDA has from 25years ago.

I am only interested in the official government papers on the law change as it currently stands and how it is going to affect me from a certain date and that is why I have Emailed for this last week

So I will just wait and see what turns up before doing a few phone calls.

Cheers Richard

you are wasting yours and other peoples time. if you had read my posts you would know that there is no change to the law and there is no fixed date and transport agency are not required to consult with you personally.
,

Mudde1 wrote:you are wasting yours and other peoples time. if you had read my posts you would know that there is no change to the law and there is no fixed date and transport agency are not required to consult with you personally.

This is what bugs me about the whole authority card.
If there has been no law change to instigate this, then what government department, MP, Lawmaker or Policymaker or whoever/whatever has made a situation change that required the NZFWDA to HAVE to step in and arque a compromise on their members behalf?
What situation occured that bought this chain of events into play.
Someone somewhere had to do something to start it, otherwise there would have been no need for the NZ4WDA have to step up and work out a deal to allow their members to still be allowed to have their 100mm+ lifted vehicles on the road.

I have found this document written by Peter Vahry in April 2003 and it is quite clear where the idea came from.



TRP REPORT - April 2003
to create a manual to provide recommendations and guidance about modifying or building 4WD vehicles

The original reason for the formation of what we now call the 4WD Technical Review Panel (TRP) was to create a manual to provide recommendations and guidance about modifying or building 4WD vehicles. This was to parallel equivalent reference manuals of other vehicle enthusiast groups such as Hot Rods, sports cars, trikes etc. As the TRP worked on this project it became obvious that so many issues were common. It was decided to create one reference manual with the working title of "The NZ Hobbycar Manual", in conjunction with the other Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association (LVVTA) groups and where necessary recognise specific applications.

It's been a long process of over 2 years so far but it is hoped this year will see a first complete draft emerge. Delaying the process has been the development of low volume vehicle "standards" as required by the Land Transport Safety Authority (LTSA). A low volume vehicle is one that has been modified from original specification in certain component areas. LTSA have developed a guide for WoF inspectors, of "limits" for modifications to vehicles.
(http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/publications/vi ... tents.html) If the WoF inspector is not happy they may require the vehicle to be inspected by a certifier and have a special plate attached, listing any approved modifications.

The manual needs to address the LVV Standards requirements but those standards are still being developed in several categories. The TRP is contributing to the writing of the standards.

A "standard" category just submitted to LTSA for final approval is "wheels and tyres". LVVTA standards provide the guidance for the low volume vehicle certifiers when they inspect modified vehicles or one-off vehicle construction. Within that wheels and tyres standard the TRP managed to have included a bead-lock wheel construction, after months of consultation with local manufacturers and reviewing overseas material. Wheels built to the standard still need to be certified on the vehicle they were intended for but the process is now clear. An eventual ideal is to establish a "type approval" system for a vehicle component made to a standard by a reputable manufacturer.

In regard to wheel and tyre size changes we understand that LTSA have recently set a maximum variation of 5% in rolling circumference from "factory standard" (whatever that is on some makes and models!) before the vehicle must be certified. This may mean having evidence available of the compliance of your non-standard diameter wheels and tyres when you visit the WoF man in future. It may pay to remove the manufacturer's tyre specification sticker off your vehicle to start with!

There is no question that big wheels and tyres do change the handling of a vehicle and the effects on braking can be dangerous. The NZFWDA advocated a maximum of 15% variation. LTSA have argued on speedometer accuracy effects too. I don't think they're trying to save us from speeding fines but are looking at diesel road tax.

For many years, MotorSport NZ has been the only organisation allowed to issue "Authority Cards" recognising some modifications to vehicles used for competition, which would otherwise prevent their use on public roads. Components such as certain seat belt types, roll cages etc. are acknowledged by an authority card that is recognised by WoF inspectors. The LTSA have now identified that there are other motoring contests outside of Motorsport NZ and are allowing other administering bodies to also issue authority cards. The process is complex and must be well managed. NZ Hot Rod Association has indicated they might be able to work with the NZFWDA to provide a scheme if there is a requirement by competitive four wheelers. I'd be interested to hear from members on that.

There is still a lot of work for the 4WD TRP this year, as several standards are still to be completed, or even started. One area of interest is a bull bar policy that is still on the shelf. A "noise and emissions" rule and standard has been given urgency by LTSA with emphasis on the noise part. Creating a workable standard and test parameters will be a challenge! A "seat and seat anchorage standard" final draft is soon to be circulated to contributors for comment. This may affect some four wheelers who swap seats from other vehicles or install aftermarket units.

So, you can see many things influence the production of the manual, but the aim is to at least reflect the intentions of the standards in good engineering practice. In the meantime the team will keep monitoring regulations in association with the LVVTA.

The role of the NZFWDA delegate to the LVVTA is to represent our organisation's interests through attendance at about three meetings a year, advocate for 4WD and monitor the draft standards and other documents circulated for comment. LVVTA are presently restructuring their staff positions pending the retirement of Glenn Johnston who has done a great job as Executive Officer in clarifying the role of LVVTA within the LTSA and setting up processes to administer LVVTA. The present Management Committee of LVVTA comprises 2 elected members plus the President, currently President Neil Fraser, Steve Keys (NZHRA) and Ian Snellgrove (MotorSport NZ).

Peter Vahry

Bulletproof wrote:

LOLYF wrote:The same way people with MANZ authority cards and NZHRA cards sell there cars
This system is nothing new it has just been adopted from other working systems.

That is what I thought. A very small market of a couple of thousand people in NZFWDA clubs

Cheers Richard

Im not a member of either MSNZ(have been in the past) or NZHRA or any club. But that cant stop me buying a car that has to have an authority card, just means I cant drive it on the road/track/strip legally. Same thing as buying a light truck, if you dont have a class 2 or higher you cant drive it on the road legally.

There is nothing in the current laws to stop anyone buying any type of vehicle they want too, but the laws are there to stop you driving it legally on road or on the track/strip or light/heavy trucks or something that has wheels/tracks or rollers.

If someone whats to sell there 4X4 with that has an authority card, they can sell it to anyone else they want to. Its up to the new owner to get an authority card, so they can then drive it. Just a case of buyer beware.

If you sit down and think about it, there are ways and means around the authority card for a 4X4.

Mudde1 wrote:
you are wasting yours and other peoples time. if you had read my posts you would know that there is no change to the law and there is no fixed date and transport agency are not required to consult with you personally.
,

Thanks Tony for a precise clear answer.

By people on the forum here stating as fact what the Government is saying about lifts etc, they are their own worse enemies because because it will only feed it into the governments mind and become self fulfilling and bring restrictions on themselves.

Regarding any government agency they can't do things in secret and have to answer to the New Zealand public . I had a run in with "Building and Housing" about leaking homes and through the minister of housing talked to the CEO so everyone has to answer. LVVTA is no different. I don't mess around and go straight to the top.

Cheers Richard

Smurf wrote:

Mudde1 wrote:

What situation occured that bought this chain of events into play.
Someone somewhere had to do something to start it, .

I offered to give you the information, but you didn't want to know what occurred 25 years ago. and has been underway ever since.

By people on the forum here stating as fact what the Government is saying about lifts etc, they are their own worse enemies because because it will only feed it into the governments mind and become self fulfilling and bring restrictions on themselves.

Regarding any government agency they can't do things in secret and have to answer to the New Zealand public . I had a run in with "Building and Housing" about leaking homes and through the minister of housing talked to the CEO so everyone has to answer. LVVTA is no different. I don't mess around and go straight to the top.

Cheers Richard[/quote]

think your going to have a run in with everyone you attack bulletproof as you did me dont know you not sure i have ever really met you ? but you came out guns blazing

DA RAM wrote:By people on the forum here stating as fact what the Government is saying about lifts etc, they are their own worse enemies because because it will only feed it into the governments mind and become self fulfilling and bring restrictions on themselves.

Regarding any government agency they can't do things in secret and have to answer to the New Zealand public . I had a run in with "Building and Housing" about leaking homes and through the minister of housing talked to the CEO so everyone has to answer. LVVTA is no different. I don't mess around and go straight to the top.

Cheers Richard

think your going to have a run in with everyone you attack bulletproof as you did me dont know you not sure i have ever really met you ? but you came out guns blazing
[/quote]

I don't recall attacking any individuals on the forum here about this issue.

All I want is truth and facts

Cheers Richard

Bulletproof wrote:I don't recall attacking any individuals on the forum here about this issue.

All I want is truth and facts

Cheers Richard

This original topic was about one person failing a WoF due to modifications and you have turned it into an attack on an organisation and the people in it.

You come across as very anti to the NZFWDA and the people trying to make a difference and no matter what is said you find exception.

You have had the facts put in front of you but you have chosen to ignore them.

Instead your constant bickering and hounding is seen as attacking and its time for you to go find some other bone to chew on.

I for one have had enough and I very much doubt you will get any further with your current attitude.