WAS fume'ing (now more of a flaming thread...)

[vvega]

Like your other cheerleaders, I suggest you take defeat like a man. If indeed you know how.

i was just about to say the same thing to you
but as has been pmed t and said in this threed itself
your wellknown for not been able to accept your incorrect .. even when you have stated it yourself
and reality is
all your experiminet does is proves conclusively that you dont have the ability to make a system work that 1000's of others both privatly and publically have had no issues with

really that speeks volumes
how you do explain you inability to preform

oh and just a tidbit of why your calcs are wrong ... most engines are only about 20 efficant at idle
they lack the piston speed and valve timing is not optomised for it

but im sure youll do some wacky arse experiment involing a ferrit and a plastic bag to prove that the earth revolves backwards

lol
wayne

[mudzilla]

My 2c worth, May not be worth even that much,, But .. 1.5% lpg to air volume is waaaay to much , Isnt it 1.5% of Fuel volume ? My kit takes About 100 ltrs of Diesel to use a 9 kg bottle of lpg . I havnt got a degree in maths , so can one of you work that theory out ?

[KiwiBacon]

I dont see how you can compare a properly designed and controlled system with prior R&D with a 5 minute 'shove a hose up the intake' experiment.

You already seemed like a dick, but to try and do something like that and then to go on defending yourself and asking people to admit defeat (like it's actually a fight?) just goes to proves it.

Dude, putting insults in your post just really sets the tone doesn't it?

Regardless of how properly designed and controlled your system is, it's still adding lpg to the intake air. Hence the point of discussion with flammability limits etc.
If you can run a better experiment then please do.

[vvega]

9kg of lpg gives you 17.82 liters of evaped gas

[vvega]

I dont see how you can compare a properly designed and controlled system with prior R&D with a 5 minute 'shove a hose up the intake' experiment.

You already seemed like a dick, but to try and do something like that and then to go on defending yourself and asking people to admit defeat (like it's actually a fight?) just goes to proves it.

Dude, putting insults in your post just really sets the tone doesn't it?

Regardless of how properly designed and controlled your system is, it's still adding lpg to the intake air. Hence the point of discussion with flammability limits etc.
If you can run a better experiment then please do.

why there are thousands of working "experiments" out there
i still want you to explain why you can acomplash the same

[KiwiBacon]

My 2c worth, May not be worth even that much,, But .. 1.5% lpg to air volume is waaaay to much , Isnt it 1.5% of Fuel volume ? My kit takes About 100 ltrs of Diesel to use a 9 kg bottle of lpg . I havnt got a degree in maths , so can one of you work that theory out ?

100 litres of diesel is about 85kg. 9:85 is just over 10% lpg by weight.
By volume it's a higher fraction of lpg as lpg is lighter.

[KiwiBacon]

why there are thousands of working "experiments" out there
i still want you to explain why you can acomplash the same

I believe lpg is detonating inside most if not all of the diesel engines running it.

Today I've shown you detonation on video and I've measured the volume that was used to do that. That volume is under the lower flammability limit which shows that autoignition is not controlled by the flammability limits of lpg in cool air.

You suggested that 1.5% (by volume) would be a safe limit, I found detonation running even leaner than that. At 0.4% (+/-0.2%).

And for that I get abused, well done.

[vvega]

My 2c worth, May not be worth even that much,, But .. 1.5% lpg to air volume is waaaay to much , Isnt it 1.5% of Fuel volume ? My kit takes About 100 ltrs of Diesel to use a 9 kg bottle of lpg . I havnt got a degree in maths , so can one of you work that theory out ?

lol but really your truck cant be running because well then the world would spin backwards and kiwi woudl be wrong .. and we cant have that

[vvega]

why there are thousands of working "experiments" out there
i still want you to explain why you can acomplash the same

I believe lpg is detonating inside most if not all of the diesel engines running it.

Today I've shown you detonation on video and I've measured the volume that was used to do that. That volume is under the lower flammability limit which shows that autoignition is not controlled by the flammability limits of lpg in cool air.

You suggested that 1.5% (by volume) would be a safe limit, I found detonation running even leaner than that. At 0.4% (+/-0.2%).

And for that I get abused, well done.

kiwi as a man of engineering you muct understand that there are fixed rules than cant be broken
one of those is that autoignition cannot happen at below the lower limit
i mean seriously.. it cant happen

and what it proves is that ethier your testing is flawed in someway ... or that science is wrong ... 100's of years of acumulated knolage is poven wrong by a kiwi fulla in his back yard

seriously ... what do you expect

and its not abuse .. im just poking fun because your been stupid .....
hell if i stuck my head in a meat grinder and turned the switch id expect to get ridcuiled as well... as i did when i lost my patance with you last time

[Steve_t647]

http://www.overlander.com.au/equipment/index.php?id=89

[GQTROL]

Not disputing that LPG injection can give useful HP gains, (at questionable reliability) but after 7 pages of waffle and still no dyno sheet showing 970Nm from a 4.2 diesel 6cyl.....

Someone needs to put-up or shut-up.

The numbers ain't the point!!!!!!
Who give's a f3ck what the dyno figures where???

To me, the numbers are the point, so I give a f3ck. Someone said they've got 970Nm from their 6cyl 4.2 cruiser motor...I wanna see it, because unless they're running compound turbos and are getting 500HP etc, I'd say they've made a mistake with their calcs.

[KiwiBacon]

kiwi as a man of engineering you muct understand that there are fixed rules than cant be broken
one of those is that autoignition cannot happen at below the lower limit
i mean seriously.. it cant happen

You don't understand what autoignition is. It's the gas itself being heated until it self-combusts.
This is completely different to being ignited by an external flame.

The upper and lower flammability limits only apply to external ignition, not autoigntion. I've written this many times now, I'd hope you'd read it at least once.

The science isn't wrong, I agree completely with it. It's your interpretation that's wrong.

Read this over and over:
Flammability requires a flame and flammability limits apply.
Autoignition does not require a flame, so flammability limits are irrelevant.

[Andrew1706]

Dude, putting insults in your post just really sets the tone doesn't it?

Regardless of how properly designed and controlled your system is, it's still adding lpg to the intake air. Hence the point of discussion with flammability limits etc.
If you can run a better experiment then please do.

Pot kettle black...

I've read my way through this thread and the way you present yourself leaves a lot to be desired, hence the reputation you have which seems is already widespread?

Since the subject of the 970nm 4.2 6cyl diesel has popped back up - does tyre size have an effective on torque measured at the wheels or is that another variable that the dyno operator must compensate for?

[mudzilla]

My 2c worth, May not be worth even that much,, But .. 1.5% lpg to air volume is waaaay to much , Isnt it 1.5% of Fuel volume ? My kit takes About 100 ltrs of Diesel to use a 9 kg bottle of lpg . I havnt got a degree in maths , so can one of you work that theory out ?

100 litres of diesel is about 85kg. 9:85 is just over 10% lpg by weight.
By volume it's a higher fraction of lpg as lpg is lighter.

I must be wrong again, It takes a long time to use a 9kg bottle of lpg..Must be more refills of diesel than I thought..Maybe 4x 50ltrs..how does that work out ? I thought the kit alowed about 3% lpg / Diesel , I Know it's not much,, And does that work for your burn rate/combustion temp/what ever ?? 1.5% air volume can't be right because you would be going thru more lpg than diesel. ?? And KB, It doesn't Use any at Idle, If you turn the adjuster in you can get an increase in idle rpm, keep turning it and you get the rattle, So I think your still putting in to much LPG. Mine dosnt let lpg in untill there is vacume in the intake.

[darinz]

Everything that effects gearing etc effects the torque figure whic is why it is so hard to get a reliable torque figure on a wheel or hud dyno. You really need an engine dyno to do it unless you can calculate every variable including tyre pressure, slippage etc.
If you saw the rubber that was on the ground behind the dyno after tuning my truck you would seriously question the reading as there was plenty of tyre slip happening.
Dyno results are only good for a comparitive reading. So you really should be using the same dyno the figure to compare results. Besides which dyno results are really just an ego stroke (says the guy with dyno figure in his signature) and don't mean sweet FA! At the end of the day it is performance that is important and if it does what you want then all you use the dyno for is to have a bench mark so that you can judge whether you are making things better or worse.

[vvega]

kiwi as a man of engineering you muct understand that there are fixed rules than cant be broken
one of those is that autoignition cannot happen at below the lower limit
i mean seriously.. it cant happen

You don't understand what autoignition is. It's the gas itself being heated until it self-combusts.
This is completely different to being ignited by an external flame.

The upper and lower flammability limits only apply to external ignition, not autoigntion. I've written this many times now, I'd hope you'd read it at least once.

The science isn't wrong, I agree completely with it. It's your interpretation that's wrong.

Read this over and over:
Flammability requires a flame and flammability limits apply.
Autoignition does not require a flame, so flammability limits are irrelevant.

im sorry mate but you dont even understand a flashpoint i dont see how i coudl have any confidance that you know what your talking about
and really is probably the issue with your lack of achevement
you simply dont have the understanding of what your tring to do

[vvega]

My 2c worth, May not be worth even that much,, But .. 1.5% lpg to air volume is waaaay to much , Isnt it 1.5% of Fuel volume ? My kit takes About 100 ltrs of Diesel to use a 9 kg bottle of lpg . I havnt got a degree in maths , so can one of you work that theory out ?

100 litres of diesel is about 85kg. 9:85 is just over 10% lpg by weight.
By volume it's a higher fraction of lpg as lpg is lighter.

I must be wrong again, It takes a long time to use a 9kg bottle of lpg..Must be more refills of diesel than I thought..Maybe 4x 50ltrs..how does that work out ? I thought the kit alowed about 3% lpg / Diesel , I Know it's not much,, And does that work for your burn rate/combustion temp/what ever ?? 1.5% air volume can't be right because you would be going thru more lpg than diesel. ?? And KB, It doesn't Use any at Idle, If you turn the adjuster in you can get an increase in idle rpm, keep turning it and you get the rattle, So I think your still putting in to much LPG. Mine dosnt let lpg in untill there is vacume in the intake.

again that simply cant be happening you must be getting rattle as soon as you introduce lpg
keen to have a good look at your setup

[KiwiBacon]

im sorry mate but you dont even understand a flashpoint i dont see how i coudl have any confidance that you know what your talking about
and really is probably the issue with your lack of achevement
you simply dont have the understanding of what your tring to do

Okay, lets go back to flashpoint.
It's listed in the MSDS as being -104C for LPG.
That's the temperature at which liquid flashes to gas at atmospheric pressure.

Your version is what?

It takes a big rattle to be heard outside a cast-iron diesel block. By the time you can hear it, it's getting pretty nasty.
My engine is 400kg, think about how easy it is to shake that around as shown in the video.

[KiwiBacon]

Pot kettle black...

I've read my way through this thread and the way you present yourself leaves a lot to be desired, hence the reputation you have which seems is already widespread?

Since the subject of the 970nm 4.2 6cyl diesel has popped back up - does tyre size have an effective on torque measured at the wheels or is that another variable that the dyno operator must compensate for?

You'll have to forgive me, It's a little difficult to be impartial and polite when you have a group of cheerleaders from the waikato insulting you at every chance they get. Especially when they don't understand the topic of discussion.

As Darinz has said, yes tyre size influences measured torque, a good dyno operator has a handle on that.
Take a look at the dyno plots on http://www.diesel-tec.com.au/ for an example of correction done properly so the torque figures are correct.

[vvega]

boiling point

A saturated liquid contains as much thermal energy as it can without boiling (or conversely a saturated vapor contains as little thermal energy as it can without condensing).

Saturation temperature means boiling point. The saturation temperature is the temperature for a corresponding saturation pressure at which a liquid boils into its vapor phase. The liquid can be said to be saturated with thermal energy. Any addition of thermal energy results in a phase transition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point

Boiling Point
Definition

* Boiling point is the temperature at which a liquid changes to a gas (vapor) at normal atmospheric pressure.

A more specific definition of boiling point is the temperature at which the vapor pressure of a liquid is equal to the external pressure.

* The normal boiling point is the temperature at which the liquid boils when the external pressure is one atmosphere (760 torr = 760 mm Hg = 1 atm = 101.3 kPa = 14.7 psi).

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/boilingpoint.html

The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. At this temperature the vapour may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. A slightly higher temperature, the fire point, is defined as the temperature at which the vapour continues to burn after being ignited. Neither of these parameters is related to the temperatures of the ignition source or of the burning liquid, which are much higher. The flash point is often used as one descriptive characteristic of liquid fuel, but it is also used to describe liquids that are not used intentionally as fuels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

* Flash point is the lowest temperature at which a liquid can form an ignitable mixture in air near the surface of the liquid. The lower the flash point, the easier it is to ignite the material.

For example, gasoline has a flash point of -40 degrees C (-40 F) and is more flammable than ethylene glycol (antifreeze) which has a flash point of 111 degrees C (232 F).

* A closely related and less common term is fire point, the temperature at which the flame becomes self-sustained so as to continue burning the liquid (at the flash point, the flame does not need to be sustained). The fire point is usually a few degrees above the flash point.

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/flashpoint.html

honestly I was waiting for that
and really that is completely your game over

hell ive even given your the glossery for the document your quoting so there cannot be any dispute
love you long time big boy :d

[sig]

geez guys do we need a boxing ring so we can settle this once and for all

[KiwiBacon]

boiling point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/boilingpoint.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/flashpoint.html

honestly I was waiting for that
and really that is completely your game over

hell ive even given your the glossery for the document your quoting so there cannot be any dispute
love you long time big boy :d

Okay I'll admit I screwed that up.
I should have said the temperature that liquid starts to form gas at atmospheric pressure.

Since we're dealing with a straight gas, how does that change anything?

[smurf182]

To think that when I posted up late last night the thread was only at a measly 7 pages.. !

Electronics is my area, thermodynamics is not, so I won't comment on the topic of discussion.

Someone here mentioned that a certain member had too much time on their hands..

It is because of these people with 'too much time on their hands' that we have such a technologically advanced world to enjoy.. People that dare to question 'why' not just live in a world of superstition and ignorance... After all, our engines run on science not black magic. That's why this debate is so interesting.

So can we continue this discussion in a non-personal manner, the two main posters have a lot of knowledge to bring to the table, it would be a shame for either of you to [further] throw your toys over this..

[KiwiBacon]

http://www.overlander.com.au/equipment/index.php?id=89

Just had a chance to read through that.
This one was interesting:

LPG fumigation in diesel engines uses a concentration of about one-half of one percent. If a match was struck in such an atmosphere, there might be a slight noticeable flair in the matches flame, but certainly not any explosive burn.

So the lpg ratio I found in my experiment was very close to the real deal. I had 0.4%, they said 0.5%.

[vvega]

you have to have a ignitable mixure to have a autoignition
if its below the lower flashpoints limit then its not ignitable

think about it like this ... air has hydrogen in it
BUT when you crank up a oxy torch all the air around you dose not spontaiously conbust under autoignition
this is the reason why
the concentration is below the lower limits of flashpoint and so .. cannot ignite
this is what saves our arses from been toast everytime someone cranks up a match or a blotorch .. or crashs a plane

the whole point ive tried to make this whole time is that
if you keep it below the flashpoint .. then it will be burned as part of the process like the air you also have in there

hence why .. to much concentration you get preignition ... you are above the concentration

honestly i really hope you get a understanding of this cause im honestly running out of patiance

[vvega]

http://www.overlander.com.au/equipment/index.php?id=89

Just had a chance to read through that.
This one was interesting:

LPG fumigation in diesel engines uses a concentration of about one-half of one percent. If a match was struck in such an atmosphere, there might be a slight noticeable flair in the matches flame, but certainly not any explosive burn.

So the lpg ratio I found in my experiment was very close to the real deal. I had 0.4%, they said 0.5%.

there is a big differeance between a explosiona and a flare
detination is when the speed of the flame front buring though the mixture exceeds the speed of sound
what makes the bang is the sound barrier been broken ....

pre ignition is somethign completely different

[wopass]

To me, the numbers are the point, so I give a f3ck. Someone said they've got 970Nm from their 6cyl 4.2 cruiser motor...I wanna see it, because unless they're running compound turbos and are getting 500HP etc, I'd say they've made a mistake with their calcs.

the thread is aimed at the viable option of fumigation in diesel engines not wether the dyno results are correct or not, they well may be wrong!! and really i dont give a flying rats cock if they are as its just a good way to measure the gains, i cant remember exact numbers but the original dyno run was about 65kw and 350nm?? then the second run was 120?kw and 970?nm so the outcome was very good gains.

you can piss and moan all you like but untill i can get the dyno sheets there is no evidence other than driving the bloody thing to your house laying a big fat skid on your driveway and towing your house down the road... with the LPG ON!!!
if the trans diddnt blow up
(not getting nasty, just an example...and no im not going to do it to my own house )


the vehicle was run on the dyno prior to having an overhaul, turbo mod, pump mod, intercooler etc then dyno again after this was done to see the benefits gained, same dyno, same guy, same settings. it has not had its 3rd dyno run yet with the fume kit installed ( http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au ) as the trans has issues with slippage and needs to be nursed for a while ( too much grunt for the standard trans, oops ) when the trans has had its make over it will go over the same dyno again to see the results. but the drive test which so far is around 6000km towing a bloody great offroad camper all around the south island and some of the north with the gas on is fairly conclusive that it does actually work and fairly well to.

now can we get back to the actual topic please???

fume f&king works!!!

jeeeeezzzzeeeeeeuuuuuzzzzzz

[KiwiBacon]

you have to have a ignitable mixure to have a autoignition
if its below the lower flashpoints limit then its not ignitable

This is not true. Flammable and capable of auto-ignition are not the same thing.

Do you have any references to back up this concept?
How does the observed detonation at concentrations below the LFL fit with this theory?

think about it like this ... air has hydrogen in it
BUT when you crank up a oxy torch all the air around you dose not spontaiously conbust under autoignition
this is the reason why
the concentration is below the lower limits of flashpoint and so .. cannot ignite
this is what saves our arses from been toast everytime someone cranks up a match or a blotorch .. or crashs a plane

You're talking about flammability. Flammability is not autoignition.

Autoignition is heating up a gas gently until it self-ignites. The air around your torch is still close to the ambient temp.

the whole point ive tried to make this whole time is that
if you keep it below the flashpoint .. then it will be burned as part of the process like the air you also have in there

hence why .. to much concentration you get preignition ... you are above the concentration

honestly i really hope you get a understanding of this cause im honestly running out of patiance

The flash point is -104C, you can't stay below that in an engine.
I know you're losing patience, it's obvious in the way you write. Sit down, calm down and read this carefully. It's not a difficult concept.

Auto-ignition is not flammability. They are two different (but related) properties.
If you've got an ignition source (like a spark) then flammability is a concern. But we're not.

[haynzy]

To think that when I posted up late last night the thread was only at a measly 7 pages.. !

Electronics is my area, thermodynamics is not, so I won't comment on the topic of discussion.

Someone here mentioned that a certain member had too much time on their hands..

It is because of these people with 'too much time on their hands' that we have such a technologically advanced world to enjoy.. People that dare to question 'why' not just live in a world of superstition and ignorance... After all, our engines run on science not black magic. That's why this debate is so interesting.

So can we continue this discussion in a non-personal manner, the two main posters have a lot of knowledge to bring to the table, it would be a shame for either of you to [further] throw your toys over this..

a tad dramatic when they arguing over something that has already been done not something that is mearly an idea.

[flyingbrick]

lol.

That is all.

-Nathan