Nth. Canterbury Waipara Gorge Access Update

[Gareth]

ok cool thanks for the comments, so am i right in thinking at you don't have any issues with people driving in to go fishing, for a swim or a family picnic etc assuming they only drive where they have to and tread lightly?
Speaking only for myself but i wouldn't have an issue if they were your requirements..

Well, no fisherman I know would drive up the Waipara. Once one vehicle has been up, criss-crossing the river regularly (there's no option to do anything else), fishing is effectively over for hours (same goes for swimming, or any wildlife). There are good sized trout in many of the larger holes, and fun fly-fishing to be had - provided there's peace and quiet, and you walk upstream.

So, unfortunately, I do think that the gorge is a special environment where 4WD use may be inappropriate. I think the same is true for the lagoon. Steve_t's suggestion of access for limited trips is interesting, but then you have to decide who will administer such a scheme - who decides what trips are OK, and what enforcement? The HDC will no doubt consider all that before reaching any decision.

But I repeat my original offer: if anyone wants to park near me and cross my land to walk up to the gorge, you only have to ask. It's a nice trip - about 45 minutes paddling through a warm river, with a swim at the gorge when you get there.

Cheers

[hosehustler]

the Waipara River is prone to long periods with low flow - summer or winter

Can I ask Gareth, do you source your water from the Waipara for your buisness venture/truffles/winery/home
is the low flow a problem for you and does the silt that is dislodged by vehicle movement pose a problem for your water supply/quality for your paying guests

[Gareth]

Gareth, surely you're not suggesting that the vehicle was the cause of the river being murky/brown. The water is brown for ages in front of it, and couldn't possibly have been caused by this vehicle driving through the gorge.

Looks to me as if he's been through once and is making his return trip.

Also, you mention that people are free to do what they like on their land. Are you also saying that if peoples land runs to the river centre line, then it is OK for the landowner to drive in the river, but not the general public? Surely that is going to damage the river just as much as a member of the publics 4WD.

Claremont runs a 4WD excursion for their guests (they don't offer it to anyone who isn't staying there), and they have many routes they use around the property. It's believe it's possible for them to see most - if not all of the sights around the gorge without crossing or driving in the river. Anyway, it's not my job to defend Claremont - they can do that themselves - but I should point out that they have only got one LandRover, and don't do trips every day.

If I need to access the river next to my property for any reason (chasing stock, dealing to dangerous trees, whatever), I should be able to do it - but that's very different to driving up and down the length of the river.

Cheers

[Steve_t647]

As I understand it the river is not your land, you do not own it you own to the clifftop's but may have some management or responsability for the river to the centre of the main stream in some sections.

Just curious what times of year historicaly do you have the best river flows and how much water? Also on that day I understand the club in the image did swim in the gorge over their lunch.

Also is the paper road able to be traveled?

[wjw]

Gareth,

First I'd like to say, good on ya for coming on here and setting a few things straight. If as you say the Waipara River needs controlled access so be it. I have all the docs from the council but haven't had time to read them to see if this is justified.

I would like to see any control in a form that me as an individual, with a mate, who is also an individual and not involved in a club, still being able to get access. This is something we as 4wders are going to have to get used to when accessing sensitive areas. I think Macetown will go this way in the very near future.

Lastly, we are all trying to educate the 'hoons' they will always be there, I just hope that Offroad Express continues to educate them in a good way as it has in the past.

Cheers,

Bill

[tallsam66]

There are two main points. The first is that the Waipara River is prone to long periods with low flow - summer or winter. The sort of fresh required to remove vehicle tracks is relatively uncommon. The current flow is (as I write) about 1 cumec, down from a peak of 1.5 or so over the weekend. If you look back over the last six months, you'll find that's the highest it's been. It has cleaned up only the main stream - there are still vehicle tracks up the river bed, up banks etc. To get a really good clean up, you need a flow of about 20-30 cumecs, which is about enough to open up the river mouth. (The highest I've seen was well over 300 cumecs, but that was probably a 1 in 100 year event). So - the driver who went through the gorge did it at low flow (sensibly, from his perspective), but his tyre marks and track would almost certainly have remained behind for weeks, possibly months. Every subsequent visitor to the gorge (prior to a good fresh) would have seen evidence of his activity. The Waipara is different to, say, the Ashley (which always has more water in it) or the Waimak, which gets a fresh every time a good front hits the West Coast. 4WD drivers need to bear that in mind when they drive the river.

Im not sure where on the ecan website you got the info..but when i had a look it was a bit different...the one i found shows more water unless im reading it wrong.

Trev
Ecan water link

[Gareth]

Can I ask Gareth, do you source your water from the Waipara for your buisness venture/truffles/winery/home
is the low flow a problem for you and does the silt that is dislodged by vehicle movement pose a problem for your water supply/quality for your paying guests

Last reply before I get on with some work...

We're on the Ashley rural scheme for drinking water, and have a well down by the river that we use for the crops. Disturbance of the bed is not an issue for water extraction from my perspective. The low flow is more a problem for recreational use, because the water becomes clogged with weed.

On the other hand, didymo might be a real concern for wineries. It's been found clogging up some big irrigation rigs, I'm told, and would play havoc with drippers in the average vineyard.

As I understand it the river is not your land, you do not own it you own to the clifftop's but may have some management or responsability for the river to the centre of the main stream in some sections.

Strictly speaking, if there are AMF rights, then the riverbed is part of the title. I have cliff tops and flat land at river level (that floods from time to time).

Just curious what times of year historicaly do you have the best river flows and how much water? Also on that day I understand the club in the image did swim in the gorge over their lunch.

There's no real pattern to the river flow - rainfall is spread out fairly evenly through the year (but wet months can happen any time of year). That said, flows in summer are on average lower than in winter because of evaporation, extraction and loads of willows.

Also is the paper road able to be traveled?

Not that I know of. It crosses several properties on the north bank of the Waipara above Stringers Bridge, and has never been used to my knowledge.

And Goose (and wjw), thanks for the comment. Appreciated.

Cheers

[edited to add wjw]

[Gareth]

[

Im not sure where on the ecan website you got the info..but when i had a look it was a bit different...the one i found shows more water unless im reading it wrong.

Trev

That's interesting! The link I have in my browser gives the 1.5 cumec, but if I follow yours I get 30 odd. I must have been looking at the stage data (though that's not what it says). I'll have to update my bookmark. Thanks!

Doesn't change my basic point though, just the numbers - you need a good fresh (probably more like 50 odd) to give the river a clean out. We've had nothing big enough to remove young willows, for instance, for several years.

Cheers

[tallsam66]

With some of the Farmers claiming they have AMF rights...should they not be removing young willows etc...after all they say its there land !!!!

Not trying ot be smart..but just a thought.

[Steve_t647]

Thanks for your time, and I appreciate your efforts and the fact you have come on board and made contact to get more of an idea of our thoughts and let us see your point of view.

I believe you are doing this as an individual with river boundry currently, but are also a member of the Waipra river protection group, would you introduce my suggestions to the rest of the waipra river protection group for discussion on my behalf.

Thank you in advance

Steve

[Petemcc]

Claremont runs a 4WD excursion for their guests (they don't offer it to anyone who isn't staying there), and they have many routes they use around the property. but I should point out that they have only got one LandRover, and don't do trips every day.

Cheers

As you said you are not here to defend them. But I only have one vehicle and I would probably be interested in doing two or three trips up there a year. Therefore I would be causing less damage than them? Maybe there should be more focus on stopping them than me? Seems hipocritical. I haven't looked into all the fine detail that some of the other have. I have just read what is on here and it seems that this is a topic oF focus just thought I'd add my 2c

Regards
Pete McClean

[kiwipete]

Let me ask a question: do you think this is acceptable behaviour?



I think it is wholly inappropriate to treat a beauty spot in this way.

The picture is hosted at this site, and is available for anyone with a web browser to see. And there are others.



This one shows someone's vehicle parked up on the rocks on the right hand side of the gorge. The rubber marks left by that vehicle are still there. Those pics are marked "Waipara Social Trip". Is that considered acceptable behaviour by ORE or posters here?.

I appreciate I may have done wrong in the past, but I have been "educated" too!

Yes that is my vehicle and no those marks are not just from my vehicle. There was already marks there before i drove my truck on that palteu for a photo shot.
That day we had a pleasant picnic lunch under the willows and watched another group venture through the gorge and continue on down stream.
None of us on that day would have swum in that stagnent water.

As you can see, if you care to do some propper research, I have been a member here since 01 Apr '05 and that photo was taken in March 05. My very first post, as best I can tell was; "Posted: Sat Apr 16"
I have left it there as a reminder to myself as I was "educated" by another member here about my wrong doings. Besides I have nothing to hide from.

To correct you again Gareth, the said photo is actualy labelled "Social Club trip, Waipara Gorge, end of the line, Mar 05", not as you mis quoted "Those pics are marked "Waipara Social Trip"..

Social Club Trip; having nothing at all to do with ORE at the time.

Gareth, is there any more dirt/mud you want to fling in my face?

[albundy]

My understanding of AMF rights is that if a landowner wanted to claim them, they would have had to of done so when claiming the title when purchased. To do so after the event requires the landowner to then go and have the boundary resurveyed to claim the AMF rights.
Al

[SupraLux]

Ok, I don't want any more "he said she said" bullshit in this thread, nor do I want any more discussion on the finer legal points of AMF. I think those points have been made now. If there is a lwyer among us, let him/her start a thread about it and eligten us all.

In fact, I suspect this thread has run its course.

Gareth, I thank you for joining the site and contributing your thoughts and opinions - and despite the less than warm reception you have received I do hope you'll stay and provide some balance to the access issues.

To those who are pissed off, you're welcome to be. Face it, you're pissed at them, they're pissed at you... but we need to get over it and move on to the next stage. There needs to be talk, and that's unlikely to achieve anything with people continually chipping in with inflammatory comments or beating over the same old ground. I would also remind you that Gareth is one man from the Waipara River Protection Group, and not necessarily its appointed spokesman (are you?) - he came here to clear up some issues around one of his blog posts that was copied here.

As for some of the things said about 'us' in that paperwork I think some of you need to look back over some of the things that have been said here about 'them' - This is a 2 way thing and both sides are responsible saying things that are just plainly emotive and untrue.

If this thread can move forward in a sensible way with good dialogue then I'll leave it alone, but if I have to start warning and moderating I will.

Steve

[madaz068]

Ok, I don't want any more "he said she said" bullshit in this thread, nor do I want any more discussion on the finer legal points of AMF. I think those points have been made now. If there is a lwyer among us, let him/her start a thread about it and eligten us all.

In fact, I suspect this thread has run its course.

Gareth, I thank you for joining the site and contributing your thoughts and opinions - and despite the less than warm reception you have received I do hope you'll stay and provide some balance to the access issues.

To those who are pissed off, you're welcome to be. Face it, you're pissed at them, they're pissed at you... but we need to get over it and move on to the next stage. There needs to be talk, and that's unlikely to achieve anything with people continually chipping in with inflammatory comments or beating over the same old ground. I would also remind you that Gareth is one man from the Waipara River Protection Group, and not necessarily its appointed spokesman (are you?) - he came here to clear up some issues around one of his blog posts that was copied here.

As for some of the things said about 'us' in that paperwork I think some of you need to look back over some of the things that have been said here about 'them' - This is a 2 way thing and both sides are responsible saying things that are just plainly emotive and untrue.

If this thread can move forward in a sensible way with good dialogue then I'll leave it alone, but if I have to start warning and moderating I will.

Steve

Steve Is it true that peoples posts are being removed from this tread?

[SupraLux]

Not that I am aware of - unless you mean posts people are removing of their own accord.

There are posts that I believe SHOULD be removed, but at this stage the thread has not been altered in any way by myself.

Why do you ask?

[mike]

Ok, I don't want any more "he said she said" bullshit in this thread, nor do I want any more discussion on the finer legal points of AMF. I think those points have been made now. If there is a lwyer among us, let him/her start a thread about it and eligten us all.

In fact, I suspect this thread has run its course.

Gareth, I thank you for joining the site and contributing your thoughts and opinions - and despite the less than warm reception you have received I do hope you'll stay and provide some balance to the access issues.

To those who are pissed off, you're welcome to be. Face it, you're pissed at them, they're pissed at you... but we need to get over it and move on to the next stage. There needs to be talk, and that's unlikely to achieve anything with people continually chipping in with inflammatory comments or beating over the same old ground. I would also remind you that Gareth is one man from the Waipara River Protection Group, and not necessarily its appointed spokesman (are you?) - he came here to clear up some issues around one of his blog posts that was copied here.

As for some of the things said about 'us' in that paperwork I think some of you need to look back over some of the things that have been said here about 'them' - This is a 2 way thing and both sides are responsible saying things that are just plainly emotive and untrue.

If this thread can move forward in a sensible way with good dialogue then I'll leave it alone, but if I have to start warning and moderating I will.

Steve

Steve Is it true that peoples posts are being removed from this tread?

Sorry but I removed Al's post because it was offtopic, had nothing to do with this thread and was an attempt to wind a moderator up who was trying to keep things under control, because without them then this thread would most likely turn into a big shit slinging fight and then wind up with someone wanting the whole thing deleted, people leaving the site. So dont't mind me whilst I remove any piss takes on the moderators who are trying to keep things under control Back to the topic

Mike

[kiwipete]

Have a look at this post for some more information on this topic.

http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=93361#93361

[Jerry]

That program is on in a few mins ie 7:00 - 7:30

[hosehustler]

anyone have any further updates/personal experience on the gorge, my kids were going through the photo albumn yesterday morning when we were deciding where to go for a swim, came to the pics of the gorge and my eldest said, "lets go back there", I said no...he cried ..and I mean there were tears, and said why not???, I had to explain that we couldn't go there without the possiability of being abused.
Shame really, went to another relatively private gorge in Cant, and they loved it.

[red-devil]

yes any news.

as i would like to take the wife up there again it's been 9 months since she was 4x4in and really misses it, plus my little one needs to learn the bumps of 4x4in slowly an this is a nice easy trip for lunch at the top.


Gareth thank you for the offer to cross your land, but i dont think the wife and little baby will be able to walk or me push the buggie nicey over the fields.

[tallsam66]

I cant see why a few vehicles couldnt go there & spend a few hours enjying the sights & kids having a swim...if we dont go there they have won with out a fight from us.
They dont own the gorge..it belongs to us ALL..as long as we tread lightly I cant see why we cant go there.

[rangimotors]

i have heard of a couple of people going in there recently for a family swim, non ore related and there were no issues they kept to the track, were responsible had a great family day out and from all reports loved it and will be going back.
ps .they said nothing about any signs or gates and were unaware of any access issues that may or may not be gpoing on.
By no means am i giving anyone the go ahead or giving anyone any official information this is just what i have heard.

[spankmeister]

A group of people I work with went up there last weekend also. No problems either. I was a little jealous. Maybe we should organise an ORE picnic up there while the weather is still good.

[tallsam66]

Im keen to go sometime..but i dont think we should post on here when were are going...do it all via personal messaging

[Leithfield]

Subsequent to prosecution for assault, the principal antisocial offender, and member of the Waipara River Protection Group (WRPG), has moderated his behaviour. The prosecution also served to provide a salutory lesson to those who neighbour the Waipara River that abuse/threats/attempts at intimidation, etc, will not be tolerated. Although a paper road exists, land ownership, and thus access, remain in dispute. Rest assured, for personal motive, some members of the WRPG are eager for you to transgress; others, and indeed a contributor to this thread, appear wholly concientious in their goal of environment conservation, and have kindly offered to provide walking access via their own private property.

If you make a personal decision to traverse the vehicle route, I strongly advise that you respect the well established track, TREAD LIGHTLY, and take a camera/video cam, to evidence for POLICE any antisocial behaviour.

[hiriklux]

i gather there was a public meeting about this last wednesday i was unable to attend as i only found out about it the evenining before and was working away for a few days the next day
just wondered what the outcome of the meeting was?????
rik

[Leithfield]

The public meeting you refer to was in respect of the Northern Pegasus Bay Draft Costal Action Plan; this also has significant potential implication for vehicular access:
http://www.ecan.govt.nz/Our+Environment ... gasus+Bay/

This weblink also provides detail of prospective public meetings.


Those who wish to stay abreast of developments regarding access to the Waipara Gorge, can do so here:
http://www.hurunui.govt.nz/News/PublicN ... es&ID=6853

Kev

[fweddy]

North Canty News of Tuesday March 11. Front page article

"Group wants 4wds out of Waipara River - Hurunui council hopes to navigate resolution of access issues"

Major portion of front page and also largest article on page 2 taken up with it and two photos.

Interesting read.

[kiwipete]

Anyone able to scan and email me a copy of this article please?