Offroad-Express

It seems like everyone wants the rules based on what their own truck has...

We've had discussions that clubman class could even just run the tracks with no timed stages - just a DNF time. Remove the pressure to go fast and you reduce mistakes and liklihood of damage. It would then be a competition based on avoiding penalties, which would be a good emphasis for learning. Our Marlborough event will have night stages which are optional (and therefore non-scoring) for Clubman Class partly for that reason. Not wanting to endorse the PC attitudes of "no winners or losers", but it would also make it an unattractive class for big budget trucks or experienced drivers.

And one other aspect being ignored is the local situation for organisers. We have the use of a fantastic property with a huge variety of tracks. But it is private property and a working farm. If the rules allow 37in tyres and spectators MUST be allowed, then we have no event! That would hardly contribute to growth of the sport...

There are many places in Wellington that will build a roll cage for you, just 2 hours drive from Wanganui

Some interesting comments on this thread but some problems with a few of the ideas. The number of competitors in a winch challenge is usually limited by the stages (courses) and the way they are set. Since it is usually one vehicle on a stage at a time and that time needs to be a reasonable window to allow completion, there is a finite amount of time to get the competitors through that stage. Certainly the stages can be set to be completed in short times but most competitors want to actually drive for more than a couple of minutes. If short stages are your thing then consider entering the trials series.

This of course impacts on the idea of mixing "clubman" classes with the main competition. It can be done when entries are modest but will complicate things for a bigger field. More competition stages being run simultaneously to speed things up requires of course more manpower to manage the events.

The whole premise of the the present rules developed by 4x4 Challenges NZ http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz and its predecessors, is that safety is the over-riding policy. There is nothing to prevent an organiser identifying a particular specification for a vehicle class and awarding prizes for that. The overall safety rules should however remain, as a roll down a hill is still a roll, whether the vehicle was driving at 5kph or 100kph. To assume that a "clubman" competitor will not attempt to emulate a fully set up winch challenge vehicle is just foolish. If lower standards for roll protection are allowed for a particular class then there must be equivalent limits on the stages that they compete on. This would include things like safety harnesses/ seat belts too.

Spectators are important, but again the competition style is for longer driving stages and in many cases some of the best terrain is among trees/ scrub etc. The management of spectators becomes very difficult and yet they are still the organiser's responsibility. Again as one organiser points out too, the landowner also has liability and may not wish to increase that, along with the risk to their pasture from vehicle parking and foot traffic.

The tyre size debate goes in circles. The 4x4 Challenges NZ decision not to follow the Australian lead to bigger tyres is based on our softer soil types and the inevitability that the smaller vehicles would be increasingly disadvantaged. It also was a move to reduce the level of "cheque book" competition.

As has been pointed out by Jeremy, the idea of club type winch challenges run over a day, gives a good grounding for the aspiring competitors. They can still result in vehicle damage and associated risks but that's not uncommon on many club trips anyway.

Don't forget too that there is a discussion forum on the 4x4 Challenges NZ website.

What would be a big help is for people to put up suggestions, and their real names so that I can put something together based on some real and measurable feedback. The rest of this post is pretty long so I've posted it here but will start a new thread to get a big shit fight going over tyre size. I'll call in WC tyre size.

So one thing has been achieved. People want a second class, and being an opinionated prick has got a few more responses.

I think this is the best place to discuss the requirements as there are more people participating than anywhere else.

So if a production based class isn't the best option and people are just saying less rules are better, then what rules do you have?

Tyre size, what size. 33, 35?

Modification level, standard suspension is a must I think ie no twin shocks, no coil conversions, no wheel base mods.

Engine mods, so transplants are needed to allow Toyotas. But how do you police that. Do you restrict it to engine from same manufacturer to allow Lexus/Hiluxs but still retsrict it to no forced induction. Obviously this is because I don't see any place for 500hp Club class trucks without full rollcages. This is a safety thing mainly.

What about cab and chassis. I think they should be the same ie no Hilux on Prado etc. That rule was originally for the Rangie on a Disco chassis as the Disco used a the old Rangie chassis for many more years s it was essentially the same. The rules has now been abused away from the original intention.

Should there be a restriction on experience. ie First year competing or something similar.

To answer the tyre size question is very simple. In the 35" range there are no viable alternatives to either Simex or Silverstone. It is a rare size that is not well supported by manufacturers. If you want to encourage people to do something different then you need to include the tyre size that has alot of options. 37x12.5 is that size. There are some very good new types of tyres in this size. To allow them to be used and get a greater variety into the sport we need to allow the wheels ruts to be made 6mm deeper. Now as has been said many many times, a Hilux on 33's has the same diff clearance as a Patrol on 35's so a Hilux on 35's will make ruts as big as a Patrol on 37's. The big rut agument is a load of crap (in my opinion). If the size allowed it I would probably get a set of the new Maxxis Trepadors Competition that are only available in 37x12.5 (or 40's). It looks like a viable option to the ET. Isn't it boring having everyone using the same tyres? Oz was like that and then they opened the rule up and now they have a huge variety on tyres. Yes our terrain is different so therefore our tyre requirements are different. BUT within reason shouldn't we encourage diversity?
Also if you want to fit bigger brakes for SAFTEY, that means 17" wheels and there is no tyre on the market in 17" that is a viable option to an ET.

Cheque book racing is about big winches and suspension. The difference in cost between a 33 and a 37 is a few hundrew dollars over a set of tyres. We all know of a particular Suzuki that was running 32's an electric winch and had still had over $100k spent on it. What I have done motor wise is cheaper than rebuilding a TD42 and fitting an off the self turbo and intercooler kit.

darinz wrote:
Now as has been said many many times, a Hilux on 33's has the same diff clearance as a Patrol on 35's so a Hilux on 35's will make ruts as big as a Patrol on 37's. The big rut agument is a load of crap (in my opinion). If the size allowed it I would probably get a set of the new Maxxis Trepadors Competition that are only available in 37x12.5 (or 40's).

What a load of dribble.............
The bigger the tyre allowable the bigger the ruts no matter what vehicle. As soon as you allow 37's the hilux will be there with 37's and the ruts will be deeper. Unless you plan to regulate even further and say only Nissans can have bigger tyres because they have less ground clearance.
The bigger the tyre the bigger and deeper the ruts, and the bigger the cost.

One thing is for sure you will never get a consensus on a public forum like this.

darinz wrote:In the 35" range there are no viable alternatives to either Simex or Silverstone. It is a rare size that is not well supported by manufacturers.

Just had a quick search and these tyres are listed on their manufactures website's as being available in a 35x12.5" size:
- Maxxis M8060 Trepador in a 15", 16" and 17" wheel.
- Maxxis M8090 Creepy Crawler in a 15" and 16" wheel.
- BFG Krawler in a 15" wheel (although these are 13.5" wide)
- Pro Comp Xtreme MT in a 15" wheel
- Mickey Thompson MTZ in a 15" wheel
- Mickey Thompson Baja Claw Radial in a 15" and 17" wheel
- Mickey Thompson Baja Claw in a 15" wheel (13.5" wide)
- Super Swamper LTB in a 15" and 17" wheel
- Super Swamper SSR in a 15", 16", 16.5" and 17" wheel (both 12.5" and 10.5" wide)
- Super Swamper Bogger in a 15" and 16" wheel

...and then there's all the many other tyres that are slightly larger than 35" but still fit within our current 36.5" limit.

At a guess, maybe the reason everyone is running Simex or Silverstone tyres is not because there are no other options, but because they are the better options?

jeremy wrote:Just had a quick search and these tyres are listed on their manufactures website's as being available in a 35x12.5" size:

--- edited list ---

At a guess, maybe the reason everyone is running Simex or Silverstone tyres is not because there are no other options, but because they are the better options?

I was going to do the search from home tonight and post, but you have pretty much covered it anyway.

To me it seems like the objectives of the rules are being lost here. By restricting tyre size based on one manufacturer's size predominantly (for whatever reason, though the skeptic in me says Simex is also a sponsor of these events and might be clouding the judgement of the users/organisers) OR engine transplant rules to support Toyota running competitors is a strange approach.

If safety is the first criteria (as Peter said), then the rules should be based around the safety logic regardless of which class of competition is being governed.

I will put more thought to it when I get home tonight.

PS: I am not posting my real name because as a registered user of this forum, the operator/owner has little to no problems identifying or contacting me should there be a need. But if I am required to post my real to be taken seriously on this thread or the other thread, then thats another form of "regulation" and I have issues with over regulation. You are welcome to take my comments at face value and judge them on their merit and logic, not by identifying who the author is. If you still have issues with it, send me a PM and I'll give you my email/phone number.

I think in clubmans class, engine swaps should be allowed, so long as they are from the same manufacturer. If you have a NA petrol patrol, you can stick a turbo diesel in it if ya want, if you have a Hilux you can drop in a Lexus, or a Supra six , if ya run a Zook ya can drop in a swift or something. Make it so you have to run a STOCK engine tho. at most you are gonna drop in an engine that has what 250hp at the most?, with open diffs, and 33 inch tires, bulk horsepower isnt gonna be what gets you to the finish. There are plenty of club trucks that will be outlawed if you insist on no engine swaps. I think your safety items need to be top of the list, ie no 4 point cage, then no racey!! ludicrous to play at motor sport, especially off road, without roll protection!, same with synthetic winch rope, its cheap enough now..

my 3c worth

Jafa

My personal opinion is why not just leave the rules as they are? - at least for a few more years ,the clubman class would be better catered for/nurtured at a club level as the Rotorua/tauranga clubs have been doing with there club days, with compulsary winching and stages that are set more to focus on team work and safety rather than speed.
At the moment the rules are flexible enough to let any one build a truck and race it - why change it?
I

My 3.5 cents

When I said (refering to clubmans class) that we should keep the rules as loose as possible, i meant;
employ all safety rules (four point cage, 6 point cage what ever) but so far as performance mods go, if that person has not raced before, then i see no real reason to stop them from having lockers, twin shocks etc etc.

Jafa, why should the engine be from the same make? I would rather have a lexus in my lux, but it has a holden. why should i not be allowed to compete? the lexus weighs less and makes more ponies. but i fully agree with your "standard motor idea"
(now to figure out how i can afford and fit a viper motor in my lux, hehehe )

Just so you know, i have no personal interest in these clubmans rules (same with many others here). No, I have not yet competed, but i want to play with the big boys. my interest here is academic, i would like this sport to be as easy as possible to begin. had the rules not been changed when they were, to the 6 point cage rule, then i would have entered the rotorua challenge in 07 (or was it 06). and as it turned out rotorua allowed 4 point cages in that event.
Note: I fully support the 6 point cage rule.

I am aware spetators is a prick, and im sure it would be harder for a winch challenge, but the trials guys manage. I wont preach as I dont not have the motivation to organise an event. Spectators or not I am extremely greatfull to event organisers and marshalls.

Darin, I hear you on your six mm, but the line has to be drawn some where. It would seem to me that there is indeed enough choice at 36.5 inches.

Arron.

I've been pondering this some more.

For what its worth I'd go with

Challenge Class
As it is, perhaps with the changes in tyre size.

Clubman Class
Minimal mods -33's, small suspension lift, max 2" body lift, engine swaps from same model line (petrol to diesel, non turbo to turbo etc) 50mm each end wheel base mod (to assist with gaurd clearance) guard clearancing but no body chops. standard drive line, diffs ratio swaps allowed, 1 locker, standard winch, Certed (if required) and current WOF (your basic club truck)

Usual safety mods roll cage haresses etc (safety first)

Then
A rookie section in each class.

First timers with driver doing 1 season or max of 5(?) events over 2 years. Would need to be based on a national licence type system to ensure compliance. finishing in top three ovr all in class voids rookie status.

This would allow for those who are now looking at setting up trucks to do winch events but dont want to go to huge expense and also let those that have previously modded vehicle without winch events in mind have a crack with what they have with the knowledge they can play for a season before making any big leaps.

No allowance to do rookie in Clubman for a year then be rookie again in challenge or vice versa but maybe out of comps totally for 5 plus years and you can be a rookie again.

This would mean only 2 classes but allow for 4 levels of competion.

I do not currently compete but hope to as the kids get a bit older and free up some more of my time (and money). I would like the option of running a resonably standard vehicle and being able to do it season in, season out. It was the lack of this sort of class that has seen me building a trailer queen toy suitable for club stuff and a bit of trials stuff. I would rather do the winch events but the costs involved in Challenge class rule it out for a few years to come.

Dan (you or John should have my No.)

It occours to me that madaz is on to something.

If a clubman were to be required to have a 6 point cage, and little to no performance mod regulations as I have suggested, then what seperates him from the big boys?

damn i wish i had consederd that before posting my last post.

Arron.

worthog wrote:There are many places in Wellington that will build a roll cage for you, just 2 hours drive from Wanganui

Yup, might have to go pay a visit to a few I know, will be down this weekend actually.

shortylux wrote:Jafa, why should the engine be from the same make? I would rather have a lexus in my lux, but it has a holden. why should i not be allowed to compete? the lexus weighs less and makes more ponies. but i fully agree with your "standard motor idea"
(now to figure out how i can afford and fit a viper motor in my lux, hehehe )

Arron.

This is a good point, whats wrong with another brand engine...nothing at all , so go for it, allow any brand of engine, HP is still not going to be the be all and end all

Another point to consider is the fact that the top half a dozen trucks in the country are at the top of the competion for one reason , and its not money, or tyre size or horsepower - (and while it might all help) - its because of the teamwork and the sheer way they drive the living crap out of there vechicles.
Creating more rules or classes isnt going to change this?
If your a nubie how are you ever going to measure you own skills unless your racing against the best we have?
Personally myself and others that I know have not spent the last few years building trucks to race in a clubman class, and when we get our butts whipped by the old boys of the sport isnt that part of the learning cycle?

(Thats another 2 cents worth)

By having rules that seriosly limit the modifications you can do the people who are probably gonna want to enter the comps with their well set up club trucks will be forced to watch from the side line to watch near standard trucks struggle through a piss easy track rather than allowing serious guys a chance to get a taste of competition before they go get messy with the big boys. Me personaly, I would rather wait till I can comply with the challenge class than fart around with guys in their daily drivers.
I think thats about 10$ worth to much of dribble from me
Dave Haynes

in my opinion the last two posts have hit it on the head,

Madaz wrote:its because of the teamwork and the sheer way they drive the living crap out of there vechicles.quote]

haynzy wrote:Me personaly, I would rather wait till I can comply with the challenge class than fart around with guys in their daily drivers.

at norwest we did have clubmans trucks entered but through fate it did not eventuate, at least one could not have there cage done in time and another has a fully compliant challenge truck but could not compete as he could not get the insurance required as he was only 18! these guys are the future of the sport and they are building trucks to comply with racing against the big boys.as darin has found out by running an event not requiring a cage, a roll cage is a minimum safty requirment, i do not know how the orginisers of the offroad racing events can sleep at night when they allow quads with 16 year olds to go balls out and end up airlifted out in a bad way!
im starting to think that "clubman class" may need to be re-focused to be more a rookie type class as has been suggested, i dont think we have enough competitors as yet to create a class such as kermit has done in aussie and in the club scene we have a great many trucks with non-standard setups that are more likely to want to compete than your average club truck, if you are going to the effort to put in a cage it means you are doing harder club trips therefore more likely to have experiance with the likely situations you will come across in a challenge event and have more than likely modifyed your truck to such an extent to be non complient in the club class as the suggested rules state.
i think that we need to provide specific entry level events that are only one day and one or two night stages. this is of course up to the clubs to orginise and for the current clubs to get behind and provide support in any way they can to support entry level events. the latest event in the south island being a prime example, quote:
" This challenge is a great 'entry level' where people have a lot of fun, basically get to drive hard if you wish, play in mud, rip up someone else's paddock, use your winch etc. To those that were considering entering, you would not have regretted it, you'll learn alot. All the rules are clearly explained before the event, to the point someone who is green but had their head screwed on could do well. There is not people jeering at how poorly you did, but a lot of laughs and people helping people so that most people come away pretty happy and keen to have another go."( i fail to see how bruce h could be called the best in the country after 1 days and 1 night stage as suggested on another thread though ??? )
on the spectator side of things as a orginiser it is very had to accomodate them when the tracks are much longer than in the trials situation, we also use much different terrian than the trials guys so you cannot see all the track at once, unless the orginisers have some very accomodating land, tracks can be more than walking distance apart, forest owners stipulations and spectators driving there own trucks on farms etc also becomes the orginisers problem and the last thing we want is damage to the property or an accident by a spectator to be on our plates as well! having said that whangarai's event has been spectator friendly because the property has allowed it. the best way to spectate is to become a marshal for a day and be granted access that way, (be carefull tho as then youll want to support a team, compete, and then end up helping orginise, run and support your own clubs and the others challenges)! keep the comments coming through as its through these discussions that we can pave the way forward for all.
cheers Rob Chisholm.
Norwest OHV club

Great feedback guys!
I hear what you are saying Jeremy as far as 35" tyre selection goes but I disagree. For one thing Super Swamper and Mickey Thompson do not have NZ agents. Maxxis does and 4wd Bits is testing the waters to see if the Maxxis 8060 trepador Competion has a demand. This is a tyre that I think has very good potential in NZ. The MT version in 37x12.5 is only 36.5 so fits the rule but the Competition version is a full 37". Again the rule actually has a hole is if this tyre was half worn it would fit the rule and that is completely ridiculous. The same is for the 37x12.5 BFG Krawler. Half worn it fits the rule.
I am talking about new tyre types that have come on the market in the past 2 or 3 years. These are tyres that suit what we do. We at pesent have control tyre for the simple reason it is very very good, and with what fits the rules there isn't really a competitor. The 37" idea is one about changing with the times, if there is no support for the idea then it won't happen. I'll keep talking to people as I think it has merit and it appears other do to. If more think it is good then the rule will change, if more odn't then the rule will stay the same. And that is how it should be!

It would appear from the coments that a club class with some restrictions but something that will allow most standard mods is what is wanted. What I understand is
Limit body mods, ie no ute conversions
engine transplants open, but I still think untill full cages are there that petrols should be NA.
Tyres as per rules
suspension and chassis as per factory specs.
winches to be standard performance.

So far this sounds pretty easy to build to and doesn't restrict to much. Also this is pretty easy to police as a class.

One thing I'm unsure of is the body and chassis type. Should it be as per the current rule or should it be kept to the same body and chassis? I favour keeping body and chassis from the same model as again it is keeping the costs down. ie If it has a Hilux body it has a Hilux chassis (but mabe not from the same year). My reason for saying this is if you are going to the time and expense of doing a body swap then you can also put in a 6 point cage and take your chances at the top level.

As a few others have said I have no intention or desire to compete in this class as I am already racing but I know of quite few guys who would race in this class as it should be quite cheap and will give guys a chance to have a go without having to do much more than fit a rollbar.

Keep the ideas coming!!!!!!

Darin

Darin, out of interest, are the Trepador competition tyres the super sticky compound tyres as used in rock crawling comps? Do you think they would work in our conditions? Having seen some pics of the various sticky compound tyres you can get in the states, these compounds are seriously soft.

Also, have you looked into the whether they would be road legal. I've heard the BFG red labels arn't dot rated.

Edit: Check out this link for some pics of just how soft the pro comp sticky compound tyres are:
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=635334

jeremy wrote:Also, have you looked into the whether they would be road legal. I've heard the BFG red labels arn't dot rated.

Are tyres in New Zealand required to be US Department of Transport rated? Just curious.

TJ wrote:

jeremy wrote:Also, have you looked into the whether they would be road legal. I've heard the BFG red labels arn't dot rated.

Are tyres in New Zealand required to be US Department of Transport rated? Just curious.

For road use, they need either the DOT mark or E stamp.

GQTROL wrote:For road use, they need either the DOT mark or E stamp.

So NZ has no local standard for compliance. Thats interesting.

jeremy wrote:are the Trepador competition tyres the super sticky compound tyres as used in rock crawling comps? Do you think they would work in our conditions?

The Trepadors listed http://www.4wdbits.co.nz/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=18&selection=6 are the soft compound tyres used for rock crawling in the US. There is another bias ply Trepador (will be on our web site soon) which uses the same Trepador tread pattern but a harder compound similar to the Creepy Crawlers which will be more suitable for mud plugging.

jeremy wrote:Also, have you looked into the whether they would be road legal. I've heard the BFG red labels arn't dot rated.

I've been told by Maxxis all the Trepadors meet a standard for on road use in New Zealand, but would you want to?

4WDbits wrote:I've been told by Maxxis all the Trepadors meet a standard for on road use in New Zealand, but would you want to?

Nope, I'm sure they'd wear in a big hurry! Was just curious if they were road legal as Darin mentioned using them for winch challenge use.

Has anyone put one of those comp spec trepadors on a rim and measured the actual diameter?
Are they a true 37inch tyre or are they slightly smaller?

Cheers

They are supposed to measure 37" on a 10" wheel. The radial 37" Tredador is only 36.5 so is an option under the current law. Where the current rule falls downs is that the type of tyres we use all have upwards of 1/2" of tread so once they are partly worn they then fit the specs. This was also a reason the CCDA changed the rules as at an OBC a competitor turned up with 37 BFG Krawlers and they didn't fit the gauge. So a couple of burn outs later the tyre went though but had less tread. Doesn't make a lot of sense really.

darinz wrote:This was also a reason the CCDA changed the rules as at an OBC a competitor turned up with 37 BFG Krawlers and they didn't fit the gauge. So a couple of burn outs later the tyre went though but had less tread. Doesn't make a lot of sense really.

just as some background to this..... Wormy was the guy in question and was sponsored by BFG. He got a set of 37's, and did burnouts in his driveway to get them down enough to fit through the gauge. It didn't work, so they gave him another set (37's) which were turned down by hand, as Aussie rules allowed intentionally modifiying tyres. He lost half the tread depth, but got the diameter he wanted. Trent Leen couldn't be arsed, so just used 35's. While Wormy won OBC 2005, I don't think anyone would doubt Trent's ability either, so Wormy's success certainly didn't have anything to do with an extra 1/2" tyre diameter.....he drives like a loonatic, plain and simple.

Pete Mahilof was running 37" Maxxis Creepy's in OBC 2006. He drove the truck up from Melbourne so with the wear the tyres were well within the gauge, but his spare wasn't and failed scrutineering by a few mm. He bolted on his spare, did a few burnouts and was good to go.

If CCDA wanted to make things simpler, they should have banned modifying tyres instead.

If someone wants to buy a set of tue 37's, there is nothing to stop you from wearing them down legitamitely so they fit the 36.5" gauge.

It would be mint if BFG would import those krawler tyres into N.Z.!

who out there actually wants a 37" trye when i built my truck last year to complete in the winch challange series one of the biggest costs was the tryes and rims, if we go changing rules again to 37" it means if you can get competitive tryes in that size everybody is going to have to change up to stay in the race.

The other excellent point made previously is NZ soils especially in the north island are alluviual and sedimentry which makes them soft soils and going up anouther tyre size is only going to dig deeper holes, which when we go out playing up thompsons track or any where else is only going to make us more enemies when the average guy tries to drive the track on his 33 or 35' tryes and gets stuck on his diffs.

I guess as Darin said there needs to be a discussion in general on tyre sizes but to me it just seems to be anouther item to push the budget up and make it harder for first timers to get into the sport, which is what we should be considering more so than assuie classes where on that side of the ditch guys seem to in general have much larger budgets.

In terms of cages i think you need em i have seen a truck without cage go over a couple of time and the occupants where lucky to be alive in the end how can you place a value on your life ? i think min 4 points what ever the class should be the go you can easy make a four point that bolts in and out.

In the end the truck with the best team works and driving will win no matter what the value of the truck as can be seen by many of the previous winch challange events.

Cheers

terranonut wrote:who out there actually wants a 37" trye when i built my truck last year to complete in the winch challange series one of the biggest costs was the tryes and rims, if we go changing rules again to 37" it means if you can get competitive tryes in that size everybody is going to have to change up to stay in the race.

The other excellent point made previously is NZ soils especially in the north island are alluviual and sedimentry which makes them soft soils and going up anouther tyre size is only going to dig deeper holes, which when we go out playing up thompsons track or any where else is only going to make us more enemies when the average guy tries to drive the track on his 33 or 35' tryes and gets stuck on his diffs.

I guess as Darin said there needs to be a discussion in general on tyre sizes but to me it just seems to be anouther item to push the budget up and make it harder for first timers to get into the sport, which is what we should be considering more so than assuie classes where on that side of the ditch guys seem to in general have much larger budgets.
Cheers

1)there are several 37" tyres out there that are cheaper than the big simex's(see above link from 4wdbits) and I dear say that if more were brought in then the price would drop even more,might even bring the price of simex's down.

2)some people want to make max tyre size 37"(is 36.5 now)that's 1/2 inch bigger tyre or 1/4 inch at diff head,do you really think that a 36.5" simex(which is legal now)that can dig like forty f*#ks is going to make any differance than a tyre with 1/4 inch more diff clearance to the size of ruts/holes.......I say give'm there 37"s,I still beleave the simex ET's well be the tyre to beat that wont change but lets give some other brands at least a chance.....go the 37s

Shane