Lock-Right Lockers vs ARB Lockers.

[tallsam66]

I would recommend your first locker being in the front end as this helps you to climb (to pull) over stuff, rather than be pushed over it.
I have yet to have CV problems (touches his head) but do only run the 32 x 10.5 Simexes.

Cheers John

Very interesting how you say this as its completely opposite what "Lock Right " recommend.

[Windsock]

you'd probably want to get some 33's as you've stated and see how ya go like that, then progress through possibly suspension mods and then perhaps lockers? i only say that if ya lock it up, lets say with 31's, you could do more harm than good in regards to rippin up tracks etc..

auto lockers are made for certain types of vehicle, hence the comment you may struggle..

either way, its your choice so go forth and have fun doin so!

Hi Niblik,

Just need to undersand this bit about locked 31s doing damage... I don't quite follow the mod process you've outlined, unlocked 33s, suspension, then lockers? Locked 31s doing damage? I am looking at selectably locking the front diff one day and getting 235/85/16s (32's?) simply to be able to better get through ruts left by vehicles using 33's and bigger, how can locked 31's do any more damage than other diameters locked (or unlocked)? Just needing to understand the concept behind the comment.

Good comments throughout this thread, useful to know a lot of this stuff before a decision.

[DaveM]

I would recommend your first locker being in the front end as this helps you to climb (to pull) over stuff, rather than be pushed over it.
I have yet to have CV problems (touches his head) but do only run the 32 x 10.5 Simexes.

Cheers John

Very interesting how you say this as its completely opposite what "Lock Right " recommend.

It all depends I guess, I'd go front locker in a IFS, or in a Safari etc, if you have a good rear lsd, but it depends on how you drive too. I'd mainly do it front first because on IFS and safaris, its usually the front that lifts a wheel first anyway

[IcedJohnno]

I would recommend your first locker being in the front end as this helps you to climb (to pull) over stuff, rather than be pushed over it.
I have yet to have CV problems (touches his head) but do only run the 32 x 10.5 Simexes.

Cheers John

Very interesting how you say this as its completely opposite what "Lock Right " recommend.

Never been interested in doing what others tell me is "Gospel or true"!
I always like to try things for myself and form my own opinions.
Having said that, the last time this part of the great L-R versus ARB or other debate was on here, DaveM or somebody found the Aussie link that I was talking about that proved my thoughts through experimentation. DaveM can you provide again?

My rig really likes the front locker as a L-R and I dont often need to bother with the rear E version.

[IcedJohnno]

A manual box and all wheels locked up is a huge advantage on really steep descents. It means you can stay in a higher gear and control speed with the brakes because no wheel can lock up.
If you start to slide, because you are in a higher gear you can floor it , accelerate and gain control. This is only possible with a manual locker. I always use both lockers for big downhill descents.

Cheers Richard

Am puzzled by these comments.
Part of the reason I got my front end Lock-Right was for steep descents down a peice of track called 'The Horror Stretch'.
Tis narrow, the top used to be clay, has a 1500 foot vertical drop off the RHS and has places where cross-axleing occurs. I have had issues with tractors dangling their front wheels over the edge here way back when I was learning the truth about real driving. Thankfully that happened whilst driving up so weighting the rear tray and a big right foot brake and sideswipe the clutch got the wheels back on terra firma.

As discussed before the L-R disengages due to sensing a differential in the torque being applied across the given axle, to or from the two tyres. How does this happen going down a steep track?

Richard, I see you talk about going from foot or engine braking straight back to engine driving. How will this change the torque differential across the axle? I know it changes the reaction from one wheel to the other but does that cause significant problems?
I too bought a manual for significantly steep descents, like this one. In deep snow (1 to three feet) I normally have both Lockers working coming down this.

In my experience on this and other steep slippery cross-axleing tracks the Lock-right always stays locked in on descent just like it does under climbing conditions. (where needed to be engaged) If the wheels are generating different torques through say turning a tight circle AND there is sufficient traction to warrent, then the Unlocker will disengage till the torques match.

Perhaps somebody is confusing Auto Unlockers with Auto Hubs? Quite a different kettle of fish.
The Auto Hubs do behave as U-Boat describes Richard as saying but I don't believe that Auto-Unlockers do.

[Bulletproof]

Am puzzled by these comments.
Part of the reason I got my front end Lock-Right was for steep descents down a peice of track called 'The Horror Stretch'.
Tis narrow, the top used to be clay, has a 1500 foot vertical drop off the RHS and has places where cross-axleing occurs. I have had issues with tractors dangling their front wheels over the edge here way back when I was learning the truth about real driving. Thankfully that happened whilst driving up so weighting the rear tray and a big right foot brake and sideswipe the clutch got the wheels back on terra firma.

As discussed before the L-R disengages due to sensing a differential in the torque being applied across the given axle, to or from the two tyres. How does this happen going down a steep track?

Richard, I see you talk about going from foot or engine braking straight back to engine driving. How will this change the torque differential across the axle? I know it changes the reaction from one wheel to the other but does that cause significant problems?
I too bought a manual for significantly steep descents, like this one. In deep snow (1 to three feet) I normally have both Lockers working coming down this.

In my experience on this and other steep slippery cross-axleing tracks the Lock-right always stays locked in on descent just like it does under climbing conditions. (where needed to be engaged) If the wheels are generating different torques through say turning a tight circle AND there is sufficient traction to warrent, then the Unlocker will disengage till the torques match.

Perhaps somebody is confusing Auto Unlockers with Auto Hubs? Quite a different kettle of fish.
The Auto Hubs do behave as U-Boat describes Richard as saying but I don't believe that Auto-Unlockers do.

I might be wrong about the lock-right lockers . Because I dont have any experience driving with them I personally dont know how they react in this situation.
Some of my friends have had some real bad experiences on ice to ski-fields and slippery hills where one wheel grabs unexpectedly and they have nearly gone over the edge but as I said I have no experience and in there case it might be driver error

One of the fundamentals of descending steep hills is not to touch the brakes but to rely on engine braking .To go slow enough a person has to select 1st gear. The problem with this is if you start to slide ,a person has to accelerate and in 1st gear this doesn't happen.
My argument is that with my manual lockers I can select 2nd gear which means I can accelerate out of a slide quickly if needed but because all wheels are locked I can safely use the brake to control the rate of descent because I can't lock an individual wheel and cause a slide .But at the time I know I am in a high enough gear to drive out of bad situation.

I would like to hear others experiences with lock-rights to see if they have had bad experiences.Because as I said I might be wrong in my view of them.

Cheers Richard

[NJV6]

Agreed. Both lockers when decending. For a start it keeps all wheels going in the right direction, particalarly on the back wheels which un weight on a desent and one can rotate backwards.

Yes using brakes is a said no no but there are many times even on steep descents brakes can be used to good effect. Problem arises if without lockers, one wheel locks up, the other goes twice as fast or you potentially stall. Neither desirable. To have both lockers in then as explained in Richards post is a benefit. You can happily descend at low rpm and use brakes, the engine will tell you how well you are managing to control everything.

Also can't comment about auto unlockers.

[Steve_t647]

I would suggest driver error or driver not understanding the locker and what it is doing for autolocker issues, I have one and occasionaly it will unload one wheel and transfer the drive to another but they are predictable if you understand them just some drivers panic.

I have seen a driver put his foot on the clutch because an autolocker was unloading (hopping) the inside wheel on a downhill corner, an arb would do the same (if engaged) but most of the time they are not. After the driver changed his pants and saw a couple of others drive the corner he went back up and drove it without the panic.

You can buy a monster offroader and what the vehicle can do will fas surpass what the drivers ability is.

[Steve_t647]

OK this is how the common traction aids work from my understanding(there are all sorts of Hybrids lsd to locker but here goes) If we get enough of this right Mike can make it a sticky anny corrections please post.

Traction aids in the front diff will increase the turning circle and make turning more difficult doesn't matter what they are.

Limited Slip Diff this is a diff with a series of clutch packs (usualy) designed to transfer some torque to the wheel with more traction this setup always drives the fastest wheel or wheel with the least grip with some torque going to the other side, they are better than an open diff but if buying one look at price and look at how much more it is to step up, the only real effect of lsd is a slightly larger turning circle and a some more traction they do work well in lighter 4wd's and are a lot easier on hardware.

Lokrite style locker as mentioned is not really a locked diff, it will unlock when one wheel has enough traction and is turning faster than the other unless you have some power into the diff, in other words you are always driving the slowest wheel or both with more power and you never know what it does because it does it all by itself. If it is in the front then it will drive at least the inside wheel of a corner but you never know when it is going to unload or transfer the drive to the other side (inside wheel going down a rock will transfer power to the slowest wheel). With driving them you can understand what it is doing (if not quite predict it) and will know what it is doing when it does something, I have one and for the money it was the right choice for me yes they click pop and bang but you get used to it and if you warn anyone driving the 4wd it is there it wont suprise anyone, the key difference is they need nothing other than themselves to unlock so you know it is there.

ARB or other selectable lockers are in one of two settings, Normaly they are open like most normal diffs and this gives them really nice road manners, but with electricity or air they lock up and are a spool or welded diff both wheels have to turn at the same speed, in the above situation a corner with a rock there is no transfer of drive from one wheel to another as at if locked they are both getting 100% of the drive or engine brake and no lurch or unusual bump click bang or anything else, the toyota electric locker is slower to engage and can occasionaly have problems engaging on the move or with tension on the diff(toyota say engages up to 15kmh in a straight line) unloading the driveline will help as will rocking the 4wd back and forward if unlocked it will operate as an open diff.

Spool or welded this is basicly a solid piece of metal or plates welded to teeth in a welded diff, it is very hard on all the running gear and will break things in good traction, used mainly in farm tractors and vehicles permanantly offroad where there is the ability to slip a wheel, it has really bad turning circles and almost always exclusive to the rear diff.

As far as what is better, being able to choose and having nicer driving habbits the ARB or electric can be turned on and off and no-one will feel anything different if your 4wd is driven by a lot of people or on the road a lot this would be a nice option. ARB or electric when unlocked causes less wear on tyres but comes at a price and needs an air compressor seals and lines to the diff to be in good condition (the electric the same with wires and relay's) both can blow fuses.

The lokka is cheaper but does have some habits to get used to but once used to them it is fine, interestingly the heavier the 4wd the less effect these have and the price is a lot better than ARB

LSD comes factory standard in some diffs so will cost the least (in most cases) and only has marginal driving effect . If you only want to make it up the gravel drive or the farm track in the wet go for a LSD (they are better than nothing but it depends on the amount of friction needed to over run the friction pads as to how well they go) but they are better than nothing and it is supprising to see where they can get to.

Spool if you have many spare parts or is a 4am finish to get to the coast on a trailer.

It is your choice as the driver and the one handing over the money at the end of the day it is all about choice and the type of driving you do and what you are willing to put up with. I have LSD (in the front to save CV's) and Lokka (in the back for traction) and for what I do and the money I wanted to spend it is fine, If I did more open road on expencive tyres or competition then an ARB makes more sence but it doesnt matter how much you spend on lockers, a winch or better driving style or better tyres can get you through a bog just as well and sometimes better than the ARB's etc so it is p to you to choose and re-learn the 4wd and its capabilities after the upgrade

[rokhound]

I run L-R's front and rear and the biggest issue with them is when climbing. If you are climbing on a slippery surface that has no rutting (grass paddock etc) and give her a bit welly, you break traction on both wheels on a certain axle. This then means (usually) that, which ever axle has broken traction, you will go SLIDEWAYS. If on open diffs, only one wheel spins up and this is not always enough to throw you off line.

Braking down hill. We all know that it is supposed to be a no-no, but I have never listened to that and always use my brakes. but like Richard, I then drive over them with the throttle, which when perfected gives you awesome control on decents. If you own an auto, this is a skill I believe you must master.

[niblik]

you'd probably want to get some 33's as you've stated and see how ya go like that, then progress through possibly suspension mods and then perhaps lockers? i only say that if ya lock it up, lets say with 31's, you could do more harm than good in regards to rippin up tracks etc..

auto lockers are made for certain types of vehicle, hence the comment you may struggle..

either way, its your choice so go forth and have fun doin so!

Hi Niblik,

Just need to undersand this bit about locked 31s doing damage... I don't quite follow the mod process you've outlined, unlocked 33s, suspension, then lockers? Locked 31s doing damage? I am looking at selectably locking the front diff one day and getting 235/85/16s (32's?) simply to be able to better get through ruts left by vehicles using 33's and bigger, how can locked 31's do any more damage than other diameters locked (or unlocked)? Just needing to understand the concept behind the comment.

Good comments throughout this thread, useful to know a lot of this stuff before a decision.

it was merely to mean that a bloke with open diffs and 33's may be able to drive through some obstacles and yet (due to ruts/diff clearances/approach-departure angles?) a chap on 31's and locked up will approach same hazard due to afore mentioned reasons, will spin tyres and cause more damage to track... of course its not a golden rule and is totally up to the individual and vehicle parameters like artic etc....

clear as... er...... mud?

[mudgripz]

Would not really agree with comment above that lsd has only marginal effect. Had open diffs for a couple of years, then another couple years with a lsd, then more time with front lokka added to last truck - 240 tracks in which to assess them. The lsd is definitely a useful traction aid and can be made much more so with addition of Redline Heavy Duty Shockproof gear oil, and if possible, tightening clutch paks. Redline is magic stuff for lsds - really makes them bite. Did maybe 100 tracks with the lsd and found it added about 40% more traction over standard after a little tweaking. Of course, still not as good or reliable as a lokka.

Just put lsd in rear of my newest truck - temporarily - and already much better and easily outperforms mate's same truck with open diffs. Have been on many a club trip when even standsard lsds help trucks through cross-axling and other situations which stopped the open diff vehicles.

It is true however that some lsds may have marginal effect as they lose their bite over time - in sometimes as little as 10,000ks after they've been tightened. And we notice with club trucks lsds on some makes of truck seem to last longer and perform better than others. The lsds on some isuzus and safaris are quite similar and do well, esp with Redline - though not as easy to work on eg to adjust backlash as hilux ones.

[Muzza]

My thoughts for what it's worth
Just installed a 4WD Systems LOKKA in the front of my SWB GQ ( very tight standard LSD in the rear ) and at this stage I am very happy with the LOKKA's performance.
I originally thought a manually operated front locker would be the ultimate but due to the cost involved and after doing lots of research into alternatives I decided to try an autolocker. It cost me $505.00 AU delivered to my door and less than 4 hours to install myself which is a relatively simple task.
For what it's worth here are my thoughts and comments.
I have not had a truck with locking diffs before but have had years of experience driving 4WD tractors with lockers on steep hill country and alot of the same principles apply. ie.
Don't use locked diffs ( use wheel brakes instead ) on sidelings otherwise you slide sideways, and a similar thing when climbing offcamber hills and tracks in that you can lose your front end real quick if you break traction, also that you cant turn very well when diffs are locked especially going down hill.
BUT
An autolocker is an entirely different beast to a manually locked diff and the newer designs allow them to engage and disengage alot more easily. Most of the time you are not even aware that they are there except for a greater tendancy for the steering to want to "return to centre".
Iff the front wheels have got traction they will disengage and turn even if going down hill. If a front wheel dosen't have traction then 99% of the time you would want them engaged anyhow. I can turn while comming down a hill and the front end (if not rushed ) will turn and pull the front up the hill again whereas an open diff would result in the top front wheel loseing traction and spinning and then locking the manualy operated diff would result in it sledging straight ahead. When turning on steep sidelings (if I take my time) by blipping the throttle it actually causes the backend to break traction and slide sideways, great for getting around those tight corners. I can climb a hill where you can only get up with locked diffs and as you come onto the track at the top you can turn because at that point they have traction and will allow themselves to disengage.
Some guys with manual lockers say they dont use then untill they really have to or are stuck. TO LATE !
OK there will be times that I may curse the fact that I cant turn them off but at this stage I feel this is more than compensated for by them working automatically maintaining traction all the time. Sort of like stability control in modern vehicles - sometimes a bitch, but most of the time allowing you to do more and easily.
AND if in time my experience with them turns out to be wrong and that what I have written is total bullsh!t, then I can allways take them out and sell them for half price and it won't have cost me much.

Cheers
PS
Just cleaning out the office and found this old clipping from the local paper.
Don't think it would make any difference if he had lockers or not!