Norwest Club class winch challenge

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darinz
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

Yes and no!
That is why I asked what spec the cage is built to. We don't tell you the exact spec for the cage as it has been done by so many other organisations why re-invent the wheel. For winch challenges my preference is ORANZ rules as they are the most relevant. ie offroad, a bit of speed, comparable vehicle types. ORANZ cages are designed to deform in a high speed crash and save your life, not save vehicle damage. This is the same for MANZ and CCDA (Oz) spec's. This is where I personally think the NZFWDA rollcage rules are not quite right for us. Those cages are more about rolling over and being able to keep running. Sure the cage is strong but it is actually too strong so in a higher speed crash there will be no deformation to absorb the 'G' forces so it will all be transferred to the crew.
Note: the NZFWDA cage coment is a personal opinion, not an official 4x4 Challenges position.

So if you look at any of the above rules, any cage whether 4 or 6 point requires diagonal bracing. Just because it has been accepted in the past doesn't make it right! Through no real fault some things that have happened in the past weren't 100% correct or safe and we want to make this as safe as possible.

So your idea about changing back stays and including a diagonal is spot on, but I would also look at changing the bar above the door. I would shift that so that it runs at the top of the bend and then your back stay will be higher up the main hoop. This will also support the ali sheet you are planning to put on the roof. The rules all state that the back stays should be as close as practical to the top of the main hoop. (does all that make sense?)

When it comes time to get rollcage compliance for a log book, you will need to tell us what spec the cage is built to, what it is built out of, who designed it and who built it. We'll be at Nor-West to sort this out if ou want. It will cost $26 to join 4x4 Challenges and get your logbook. It will then cost $6 per year membership ie $20 joining fee that for the next few months will include your logbook.

Ultimately it is your life and we are just trying to help you guys help yourselves.

As for your door idea, that is what I would do and as far as I understand the rules it perfectly acceptable.

Finally your guys attitude towards this is shit hot and is exactly what this sport is about and what we are trying to keep while growing the sport! :wink: The best thing about WC is the attitude of the competitors and you guys seem to have it spot on. So we want to watch you guys give it absolute shit on Saturday night as you are our entertainment while we have a couple of cold refreshing beverages!!!!!! :mrgreen: I promise to provide some entertainment of Friday night for you as well!!
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DieselBoy
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

I just got back from talking to one of the guys that built the cage back in the day.

It was built to the NZ4WDA spec's of the time and used to compete in the National series centuries ago. These reg's have changed slightly.

Where did you get the 60* angle for the back stays from?? Can't find it in the National Trials rules??

We have come up with a plan to bring it back in line with the current regs based on the minimum requirements. Its a shame i dont have a pic of the cage with out the top on, the stays between the front and main hoop don't follow the lines of the canopy/roof, they are horizontal, and the rear stays will be as high as possible.

What i want to know is straight up, are you going to REQUIRE a diagonal or not for this event??

My personal opinion, and i don't want to get into the in's and out's of it, are that a diagonal is more harmfull to ocupant safty as it prevents deformation of the cage, therefore reducing its ability to absorb the shock of the roll over, the shock being that which has caused a multitude of back and neck injuries, and has seen the growing popularity of neck braces.

If you roll and your cage is buggered, then your out, but at least you might be able to walk away with out a buggered neck or worse :D

To be perfectly honest, the reason why i am resisting just slapping the diag in, is that it will be hard to do and will compromise the space of the rear tray a bit. It can be done, but i would rather not if i don't have to just yet :D
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monstr
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Hi Just a thought ,as far as i know there is nothing in the rules that say it cant be removeable ,Darin or Jeremy can correct me if im wrong :) Re the cargo barrier (or lack of) we will not be turning anyone away that doesnt have one provided all the gear in the back remains totaly secure ,I would suggest a toolbox bolted to the floor for winch block spare shackles etc ,These MAY be checked during the comp as a few years ago there was a case of a competitor competeing without a cargo barrier who after doing a 2 to 1 winch did not secure the block in the rear as it should of been they did a big nose dive and it flew between the driver co/driver on its way through the windscreen ,This is but one of the reasons this rule is in place..Steve
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DieselBoy
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

The plan is to make it bolt in, when it gets to the point that I HAVE to have one.

Simple question, will i be turned away at scruitineering from this particular event this time round, if i don't have the brace in??

Cheers,
Pete.
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monstr
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Quite Honestly Simple answer Yes..Steve
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DieselBoy
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

Cheers :D

We still talkin about the club class here eh??

The club class that doesn't require hardtop vehicles to have any king of roll over protection what so ever??

Anyways, will do as you say, cheers for the straight answer :D
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darinz
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

DieselBoy wrote:I just got back from talking to one of the guys that built the cage back in the day.

It was built to the NZ4WDA spec's of the time and used to compete in the National series centuries ago. These reg's have changed slightly.

Where did you get the 60* angle for the back stays from?? Can't find it in the National Trials rules??

We have come up with a plan to bring it back in line with the current regs based on the minimum requirements. Its a shame i dont have a pic of the cage with out the top on, the stays between the front and main hoop don't follow the lines of the canopy/roof, they are horizontal, and the rear stays will be as high as possible.

What i want to know is straight up, are you going to REQUIRE a diagonal or not for this event??

My personal opinion, and i don't want to get into the in's and out's of it, are that a diagonal is more harmfull to ocupant safty as it prevents deformation of the cage, therefore reducing its ability to absorb the shock of the roll over, the shock being that which has caused a multitude of back and neck injuries, and has seen the growing popularity of neck braces.

If you roll and your cage is buggered, then your out, but at least you might be able to walk away with out a buggered neck or worse :D

To be perfectly honest, the reason why i am resisting just slapping the diag in, is that it will be hard to do and will compromise the space of the rear tray a bit. It can be done, but i would rather not if i don't have to just yet :D


I can see the problem you've got and finding a workable solution might take a bit of thought. A removable one is acceptable and a good way of keeping the truck more practical and is why removeable conections are allowed. (for most specs) Check with the NZFWDA rollcage specs as to what sort of conection you can use and if they don't allow for it ORANZ does and it should be too hard comply with those.
Also the one place that you want NO deformation is the main hoop! That is the things that protects your head!

The 60* angle is the back stay angle required by most specs and I assumed the NZFWDA rules would be the same. I'm sure there is an angle in there somewhere but I've just tried to read the NZFWDA rules but they are a secret document that you have to pay for! :evil:

Don't get the wrong idea, we aren't trying to stop you and these aren't rules we make, so if you can prove what you have complies with one of the rollcage specs, then you can race.
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darinz
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

DieselBoy wrote:Cheers :D

We still talkin about the club class here eh??

The club class that doesn't require hardtop vehicles to have any king of roll over protection what so ever??

Anyways, will do as you say, cheers for the straight answer :D


Yeah club class but yours is soft top so must have roll over protection.

Also next year club class will require 4 point roll bar and for my comp in April club class will require 4 point as you will be doing the exact same tracks, but we may cut a couple out if it takes too long!

A 4 point rollbar is just a full cage minus the 'A' pillar hoop and door bars/ hoop (depending on how you design the cage.
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DieselBoy
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

Totally understand the reasons for the requirments. You guys are obviously going to be checking things more thoroughly at scruitineering this time round :wink:

I just checked through my copy of the NZ4WDA rules and there is no mention of a 60* angle on the back stays, nore had our ex club president ever heard of such a requirement when i was speaking to him today about it.

I will come armed with my NZ4WDA rules to scruitineering :lol:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

You've got the idea!
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monstr
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Bugger that means i will have to have someone there who can read :) :)
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DieselBoy
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

monstr wrote:Bugger that means i will have to have someone there who can read :) :)


Here's to hoping that the cage doesn't attract any undue attention in the first place once the diagonal and stays have been replaced, so there will be no reason for any one to go over it with a magnifiying glass, rule book in hand :lol:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Hi Mate with the mods you are doing i cant see you having any problems what so ever,,Can i also say the attitute shown on this forum and emails i have had from people intending to compete is Great and is just what this sport needs..Steve
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

monstr wrote:Hi Mate with the mods you are doing i cant see you having any problems what so ever,,Can i also say the attitute shown on this forum and emails i have had from people intending to compete is Great and is just what this sport needs..Steve


Hell yeah!!! But they had better have the right attitude on Saturday night as I want a show!! :lol:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by wopass »

darinz wrote:
monstr wrote:Hi Mate with the mods you are doing i cant see you having any problems what so ever,,Can i also say the attitute shown on this forum and emails i have had from people intending to compete is Great and is just what this sport needs..Steve


Hell yeah!!! But they had better have the right attitude on Saturday night as I want a show!! :lol:


i like night stages 8) even won one once... :mrgreen:

really hope to have the truck up and running and reliable for this comp, Just have to get a good winch man...

im transplanting a National trials trucks roll cage ( cheers BLACKCRUISER!!!) into the missile as well so my cage will be sweeeet :mrgreen: and will be making a pretty serious spare wheel braket in there somewhere and permenant tool box for gear etc if i have room...

you guys will be able to check my cage and stuff via my build thread pictures :wink: and the cage will be getting put in for test fit this week some time then out for main hoop chassis mount brackets and rear stays chassis mounts and front legs sandwich plate...etc then when its in i can start the rear tray then spare wheel braket and tool box etc so gimme a couple weeks :lol: but check for pictures of it after this weekend :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by diffsx2 »

hehehe, someones got the bug, :D :D
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by wopass »

diffsx2 wrote:hehehe, someones got the bug, :D :D


if your meaning me, ive had the bug for a long time :lol:

and this upgrade is the big one so im doing a lot of stuff that ive been thinking about for a long time, including making my winch on a removable cradle so i can take it off and have my wheels sticking out the front for trials work and bolt the cradle and winch back on for bush trips and winch comps 8) thats some cool shit right there :mrgreen: ...still nutting it out tho so i dont have to do an allignment on my PTO shaft everytime i put the winch on... work in progress :lol:

be better if i wasnt stuck at work so much!! :x
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by darinz »

wopass wrote:
darinz wrote:
monstr wrote:Hi Mate with the mods you are doing i cant see you having any problems what so ever,,Can i also say the attitute shown on this forum and emails i have had from people intending to compete is Great and is just what this sport needs..Steve


Hell yeah!!! But they had better have the right attitude on Saturday night as I want a show!! :lol:


i like night stages 8) even won one once... :mrgreen:

really hope to have the truck up and running and reliable for this comp, Just have to get a good winch man...

im transplanting a National trials trucks roll cage ( cheers BLACKCRUISER!!!) into the missile as well so my cage will be sweeeet :mrgreen: and will be making a pretty serious spare wheel braket in there somewhere and permenant tool box for gear etc if i have room...

you guys will be able to check my cage and stuff via my build thread pictures :wink: and the cage will be getting put in for test fit this week some time then out for main hoop chassis mount brackets and rear stays chassis mounts and front legs sandwich plate...etc then when its in i can start the rear tray then spare wheel braket and tool box etc so gimme a couple weeks :lol: but check for pictures of it after this weekend :mrgreen:


The main concern as above!! Trust me I know how frustrating it is to have little things cause problems after a rebuild!!
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by wopass »

is this cage ok with you guys ?

Image

:wink:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Just re reading the entry form and and as i read it, it suggests that you have to provide your own door number this is not the case we will be providing the door numbers and a windsreen sticker for your support truck ,these will be the only vehicals allowed entry to the compitition site ...Steve

Ps on the weekend of Feb 6th (Waitangi weekend) a few of us will be up at the park pegging out the stages,this is an open invitation for any one to come up and help out ,PM me if your interested .Cheers
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by wopass »

so does my cage look ok to you mate ? :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

Hi Ben PM sent.Steve
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by Madaz »

I bet they wont like your rear stays, cause of the bend at the top.
Still fits in the nzfwda rules though.
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by monstr »

When youve finished with it can i borrow your Chrystal Ball :P :P


Madaz wrote:I bet they wont like your rear stays, cause of the bend at the top.
Still fits in the nzfwda rules though.
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by DieselBoy »

Madaz wrote:I bet they wont like your rear stays, cause of the bend at the top.
Still fits in the nzfwda rules though.



Same deal with the rear stays on the Guts, they conform to the NZ4WDA rules. Still gonna change em though.
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by BlackCruiser »

wopass wrote:is this cage ok with you guys ?

Image

:wink:


Looks familar, wonder where that came from? The rear stays worked!! :D
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by wopass »

Bwahahhaha!!!

whats wrong with the back stays? too steep an angle ? they have to be or they will be hanging in mid air! :lol:

my cool new donated cage is awesum!

and that cage will provide occupants more protection than a lot of others ive seen competing in challenge's after i put a lid on it of cource :wink:

BlackCruiser wrote:
wopass wrote:is this cage ok with you guys ?

Image

:wink:


Looks familar, wonder where that came from? The rear stays worked!! :D


damn right it worked and its still primo! cheers dude :wink:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by Madaz »

monstr wrote:When youve finished with it can i borrow your Chrystal Ball :P :P


Madaz wrote:I bet they wont like your rear stays, cause of the bend at the top.
Still fits in the nzfwda rules though.


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by vvega »

if that gets a good hit in the a pillar with the rear stays like that it will fold
aside from the roof and the main hoop i see no trangulation that will prevent it
it it was me would

cut off the rear bars and put stright ones on it and pyt 2 diagonal bars on it
a diagonal bar ther the roof to the a pillar same in the roof to main hoop seions ... fitt a bar abotu 100mm long in there .. notch both ends

also run a link from the a pilla to the front bar....well just behind it
Image
kinda like that

just a opinon mate not ring to knock anything ive built a fe cages over the years and had them homologated .. also i guess it not ment to save you AT 200+ km a hour just ment to take the slow rolover type accident so im prolly just spamming
some winch chlange site wrote:The NZFWDA rules are the least suitable as it is designed for low speed repetitive rollovers not hig speed impact which is what our cages are for

sorry mate was just doing reasurch while posting

on a side note
what a shit day
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Re: Norwest Club class winch challenge

Post by diffsx2 »

monstr wrote:Just re reading the entry form and and as i read it, it suggests that you have to provide your own door number this is not the case we will be providing the door numbers and a windsreen sticker for your support truck ,these will be the only vehicals allowed entry to the compitition site ...Steve


sorry steve, that section is ment to be for challenge class only as quite a few all ready have their National (north island) numbers painted on their trucks.
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