Just Another Winch Thread

[vvega]

Diahatsu using every last drop of power to run the winch....

crank driven ?
by the sounds of it .. if you dropped back the cc's of the pump a little more you will loose ultimate pump flow and NO LOAD speed ... but you woudl gain shaft hp over the entire rev rage and thus actually go faster under load
thats why when you size a pump you size it so max flow is at max rpm so that if you do begin to bog the flow drops and with that the hp required to drive it kinda self govening its not a ideal setup but im guessing you have no relief valve

ratio's is everything with hydraulics you only have to be a tiny bit out to get it alll wrong :d
that is some impressive speed though ... the other option is making more power

how it shoudl be setup is so that at relief pressure the motor is still able to drive the pump well .... because that is the maximum load it can ever see you wont get it slowwing untill ethier the winch actually stalls or the line snaps

please remember i dont know a lot about 4wding .... but i do have a very good understanding of fluid power systems

hope that helps

[NJV6]

Its not mine, I was jsut the camera man - someone here may know it better, but it is factory Gearbox PTO before it goes to the pump then powering the hyd motor.

Yes it has some great speed, with the turbo diesel it should be getting some impressive torque at that engine speed

[vvega]

arh yeap
why the step up though ?? you just resize the pump to suit the rpm
maybe they just used what they had ?

torque is basiclly everything
i say hp because it makes it easier to understand (people dont normally know that hp is a calculated number derrived from torque)
there are 2 ways to make 14 hp

HP = rpm x T(torque) 5252(constant)
so from that we can work out that
if you have 9.8 Pound Foot @7500 rpm you have 14 hp there to drive your pump

were as if you need to run @ 1000 rpm max then you will need 73 Pound Foot to get your 14 hp
and you pump would need to be sized differently for both applications to get 60 liters at that rating


i prolly just made it worse... sorry

[mercutio]

not at all this is interesting i am looking at setting up a hydraulic winch on my wagon was going to see what i could make out of what yorick has in his shed
he has a few different pumps and motors and valve banks and tanks and coolers lying around and some rams as well but they are no use on a winch

[vvega]

no but the woudl make a asome ejector seat... it might be a little slow to throw them out but i guess they would get the idea

if you have some numbers i may be able to help you with sizeings (no promises sooo many varents)

[darinz]

i dont know a lot about 4wding
BUT i do know that engineering and hydraulics ... pto winches are not stronger and they have more driven loss than a hydraulic system
hydralics are 100% reliable proving they are setup well in the first place
and you can buy off the shelf varible flow pumps
as for cost .. send me a list of the bits you want and ill price them for you.. sounds like your getting a bum deal

you make some good points with track makers and its important to have the right setup for the right application and that by itself is good reason to look at electric

just tring to help not offend

No offence taken or intended and I don't question what you are saying.
And if you can setup a cheap hydraulic system that works then you'll make a killing as no one has been able to yet!!
I agree with what you say about PTO vs Hydraulics etc, there is no question about it.
But here is a couple of questions for you.
If I want the winch to run at 1000rpm (engine speed) have peak power at 2000rpm and still be able to run at 3000rpm and the engine also run to 7500rpm, how would you suggest that this is achieved? And this is required to be crank driven as there is no PTO. From what I worked out it needs at least 50hp to drive it, but I was working on 70hp.
Also we need to be able to creep the winch to take up the load and sometimes you want max torque with low speed!
We also want to be able run it for extended duration but don't want to carry 2x the oil flow in a tank. From the calcs I've looked at to get the speed and power we want you need a flow over around 60 to 120 l per min and around 2000 psi to 3000 psi to get the torque. I'm not sure of motor and pump sizes of the top of my head sorry.

From what I've figured out, alot of the principle used for normal hydraulic systems don't seem to apply and some very smart hydraulic guys have gotten this wrong.

ifr a 80cc winch..15,000punder
to get 60 liters a minuite of flow 7500rpm @ 2000 psi (winch max)
you need 14.5hp to drive it

now granted as you slow the engine down your fpm rate will drop ... but @60 liters a minuite you will be fair rocketing along at about 400 fpm
you will still have 2000 osi avalible at 1000 rpm yuol just wont have 60 liters per min and to get 60 liters per min you really need 3/4 inch hose
this pumps is worth about 400 bucks the winch is a 15000 pound one from 4x4 fibreglass and worth about 2300 and comes with the valve bank switch's a flow divider but no relief valve (your ps pump will have one) but in our case you would need to buy one with a block for about 170 bucks

then just any extra hosing and the cost of mounting the pump and winch

...... they can also be run off your p/s pump .... but again you will have the pressure .... but not 60 liters per min

the motor on the winch is a danfos one so it is high quality.(but it could be a chinese copy....) but in saying that you could get a direct fit danfoss one off the shelf if your skeptical
if you did want to run 60 liters per min you would need about a 10 liter reserve and a decent high flow oil cooler and fan

pump rotation is not a issue though you may want a on off coupling so your not running it all the time


there is another option
throw away your diffs and put hydraulic motors on all your wheels .... use a decent motor and pump and run everything hydraulicl

but thats another topic
hop that helps

wayne

Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was talking about max engine speed while winching is 3000rpm. The 7500rpm is just an engine speed so either the pump needs to be disengaged or be able to with stand running at whatever speed 7500 rpm will cause and not flow oil as that will cause heat buildup etc. Most assumptions have been based on a 1:1 engine to pump speed but it doesn't have to be.

Most guys have been using the 8000lb Superwinch and then changing motors etc on it to get more speed and power. They are running up to 3000psi and are running up to 120 l/min. 2000psi is the 'normal' pressure but they do go higher when really needed! The tank sizes are about 20l.

The problem I have is I don't buy the 14.5 hp as being a true figure for winch power. I assume there has to be some sort of gearing there to increase this figure otherwise my electric winch has more power! eg 15.6hp 24v and 136:1 gearing to get 8000lbs line pull. So if you take 14.5hp from the motor and gear it to get more power to the winch then the speed will drop?

Check out this as an idea and they are saying 100hp to get 100fpm. http://www.4x4winches.com/type_r.htm

And look at the top winches and they are running at least 3/4 pipe, possibly bigger as I haven't actually checked the size but it looks like it is bigger than 1".

I know most winches state about 60l/min and 2000psi to get rated speed and power but this gets you less than 100fpm (96 for Superwinch and 84 for Come-Up). I think your 400fpm calculation at 60lpm is slightly out. What line pull does this equate to? ie motor torque. I would think that as you increase the speed of the winch then the power required is going to go up a huge amount if you keep the line pull the same. I can't remember exactly but if you double the speed doesn't it take 4x the power?

A P/S pump hydraulic winch is slow!! Very very slow in fact. They may have a lot of power but the speed is incredibly slow! The Milemarker 9000 has a rated speed of 6.16 frpm when run by a p/s pump.

Like I said I'm just saying what I've seen and making some observations, and I know this isn't as simple as it seems.

Sorry for all the questions but these are questions that seem to be very difficult to get the answers to! Also you have come up with some answers that are different to the research I've done. They are much better answers (almost to good to be true so to speak) which is why I want to know more!

[vvega]

ill give you some calculators... just changing computers

[vvega]

HP=PSIxGPM/1714
hp calculation for flow and presure
GPM@1800 RPM=47*W*(2D-L)*

gear pump and motor displacement

couple of quick notes i dont have to much time
pipe is rated on internat diam ... and that can be 1/4 inch per side so your 3/4 pipe woudl like well over a inch externally .... in saying that ... that was the minimum size

my calcs were based off the 5th row of winding at max pressure and flow as per the little spec paper i have

the hp figure was based off max presure at max flow ... so hp wont increase that is it
remeber flow is speed of movment and psi is resistance if your flowing 60 lpm and your hitting 1500 or what ever psi your at your peak .. it wont get any better
if you lad it anymore the presure will go higher...except that the relief valve will open and the winch will smiply drop speed intill ti can fin a flow vrs psi that it can maintain... it is easiely possible to stall a winch and still have you pump moving 60 l per min and 1500 psi

IF you do want to main tain that speen then you have to basically change the motor to one that can handle more pressure and in turn put out more shaft hp and than in turn requires a bigger winch with stronger internals

building a system is not simply slap it all togethier and make it work
you have to have requirements and then build it from there
thats why i asked for what size winch you wanted and its requirements .. then i can give you details that will help and what requirements you will need to then run the system you desire

hydraulics is a very complicated subject and its very hard to explain over the net , it replys on every detail been correct to get your perfect match leave out anything and it will always be sub par

i can tell you what you need to make it work from the input of the pump to the shaft output ... but then you need to have a winch that wont just eat itself when you stick that much shaft hp though it

im happy to help you as much as i can but you need to give me details
hope that helps

oh
i think the idea of useing the p/s pump allows you to buy the initially expensive winch and use it while you sort the rest
i mean you dont really need a high speed winch for club stuff do you ?

wayne

[suzolla]

Yes this is a very interesting thread.

Hi Darin,

Check out this as an idea and they are saying 100hp to get 100fpm. http://www.4x4winches.com/type_r.htm

I think what they are actually trying to say is that with a engine driven hydraulic winch there is 100 hp available to drive it not that it needs 100 hp.

Hi Wayne,
Couple of comments / questions.

With regard to speed control, hydraulic would seem quite good as you can vary engine speed to control winch speed, you could also have an adjustable bypass valve so that only some of the flow goes to the winch.

I have got a winch with a 100cc motor, manufacturers suggest a 35cc pump is used, what pumps are available about this size or slightly bigger, what sort of cost are they.

Also I want to run it off the front of my motor, are there dog clutches available in NZ that i could use.

Also what filter would you recomend is installed in front of the pump.

Have already got the solenoids and relief valve.

Thanks
Tim

[vvega]

Yes this is a very interesting thread.

Hi Darin,

Check out this as an idea and they are saying 100hp to get 100fpm. http://www.4x4winches.com/type_r.htm

I think what they are actually trying to say is that with a engine driven hydraulic winch there is 100 hp available to drive it not that it needs 100 hp.

Hi Wayne,
Couple of comments / questions.

With regard to speed control, hydraulic would seem quite good as you can vary engine speed to control winch speed, you could also have an adjustable bypass valve so that only some of the flow goes to the winch.

I have got a winch with a 100cc motor, manufacturers suggest a 35cc pump is used, what pumps are available about this size or slightly bigger, what sort of cost are they.

Also I want to run it off the front of my motor, are there dog clutches available in NZ that i could use.

Also what filter would you recomend is installed in front of the pump.

Have already got the solenoids and relief valve.

Thanks
Tim

The Type R winch says the internals of the winch can have 100 hp thrown at it and not brake
its more of a ratign than a requirement . Interesting that they have fitted a better motor to it ...
Basically they have found a winch with a strong gearset and drum and fitted the biggest highest pressure motor they could find....its how i woudl do it if i was in settign one up for a comp..custom all the way
hydraulics cannot give you more power than you have to start with
its the laws of physics you canny break em
hydraulics will let you take the power you have and convert it to what you need to do the the purpose you requre...i.e up the tourqe and lower the rotating rpm or, lower the tourqe and up the rpm

if you want 100 hp to run a winch then you need a engine that out out at least 100 hp + whatever to drive the gearbox wheels etc , The example i gave at the top was for this winch i had here ... i COULD change the motor for a 8000 psi (its a danfos so you there are many options) model and shove 100 HP up its bum ..though i think the winch might like apreciated that and could create its own black hole and suck me down with it...such is what happens when you break the laws of physics
i think this is turning into a roundabout and we shoudl talk specs .. or were not really making any progress


Hey tim
need to know what operating rage you want to run at but the beforementioned prive is a good ballpark figure

i havent done anything yet in reguards to sorting a clutch of sorts but i can look into it for you if you wish
your more than welcome to pop in and see me today at work i can make some time point you in the direction you want to be going :d 116 ellis street ... hamilton

normally you run the filter ont he suction side of the pump(its way cheaper and protects the pump)
for a 13 micron filter and a block with 1.5" fittings .. 60 is bucks i know wer have a box of untapped ones could probably tri to get one thrown one in with the pump sorta deal but there not expensive
as for lines ...... united flexible in town is DAM cheap they have fittings as well , TBH there stuff is NOT the highest quality ... but it will do the job and it is relable....just make sure you blow there hoses out before use...

hope that helps

wayne

[suzolla]

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the reply, would like to come and have a chat at some stage, bit short of time at the moment as i am working 6 days 10 hrs.
So if you give me your ph no will give a ring to arrange a time some time, if you want you can email me.
tim.randall@genesisenergy.co.nz
Thanks
Tim

[Madaz]

Hi Madaz,

What sort of pump are you using and how are you driving it.

Thanks
Tim

Im using a gear pump driven off the pto

Cheers

[darinz]

This is just great stuff! Open discussion like this is what gets shit sorted!
I'll go through the info I've gathered and come back with some spec's to see what can be done.

I have a quite a few ideas on converting my winch to hydraulic but it must maintain the current versatility as I can't see running 2 winches as being the perfect solution. So I'll work out gear ratio, drum size, line pull, engine rpm and drum rpm. From that hp to drive the pump can be calculated and then I can sort out clutch system that will work. If that can be done then I'll go hydraulic. Selling the electric stuff I have will pay for it. particclary when you see how many motor's, solenoids, batteries etc I have lying around! And an alternator etc.

[vvega]

lol
ive been looking at options for direct drive off the pully ...not really keen on a dog setup (eould judt be nasty so just tring to find a magnetic coupling that will handle the jandle i think most of the problem is gunna be finding a coupling that will be mud friendly .... unless you seal it up

[suzolla]

Hi,
4X4Winches suggested a dog clutch such as on here http://www.grouphes.com/hes/catalogue/h ... clutch.htm
The GP-CLT-RL-1P
Don't know what sort of cost.
Would only be engaging and disengaging unloaded.

Thanks
Tim

[vvega]

ok here we go
this is for club stuff .. not comp rated gear to give you a idea on costings (well its relable just not to the speed spome of you are asking)
For the 15k winch i have here
this is what i woudl spec for it

A ALP2 D40 T3 ep
28cc pump 200 bar max presure and in limited (hydrodynamic bearings) to 2500 rpm
giveing you 70 lpm
70nm to drive
$537 list price

you cannot side load the shaft SO
you need a
load adapter
p/n omtsp2 188 pal shaft
$315
and a adapting drive sleve
p/n 0mtbtu
$39
now the electric coupling
if you deside to go this way instead of the load adapter (has the load adapter built in) for the unit and it will hold 99nm
so there is spec to move up to a bigger pump
$1400 the manuel ones wil hold more power up to 500 nm BUT they can only be inguaged at under 300 rpm and they are considerable more expensive

you can run this off a gilmore or vbelt drive or even a chain drive if desired to match the required pump speed to the max motor speed

this will run that 15k winch at the best it will go ... but its not a compition winch
it also gets around the issue of having to have a very large heavy expensive large volume pump on your 300 rpm pto

just need to figue a way to stop dirt getting into the clutch

As a comparasion a 8000 dollar propertionaly conrolled piston pump with swach plate that will do 6000 rpm and will ajust flow to suit max pressure(so you always have max presure avalilble) , il also means that you will not run continoisly on your relief vavle (very very very veyr veyrvyevyrvyrv bad for it) is the size of a 4k engine
BUT it will pump almost 500lpm @6000 psi and will require a 3.5 " internal suction tube and 500 liters of oil and will require 200kw to run it
but that would be a 30k winch setup
and in all honesty with the right sized motor you would probaby be able to winch yourself faster that you would be keen to drive the terran... providing it doesn't rip what your winching off out of the ground or rip the front of your truck off

hope that helps

[darinz]

lol
ive been looking at options for direct drive off the pully ...not really keen on a dog setup (eould judt be nasty so just tring to find a magnetic coupling that will handle the jandle i think most of the problem is gunna be finding a coupling that will be mud friendly .... unless you seal it up

I've found a tooth magnetic clutch ie it uses teeth insnstead of friction material to transfer the drive. Very small and compact but don't know of a NZ agent. one about 4" diameter will do 200nm! Basically a magnetic dog clutch!

Sealing is not an option for reliablity. I've lookin at this for a long time and standard magnetic clutchs aren't going to do the job.
There are guy's using dog clutches and they have proven reliable but I'm not convinced. Just a personal thing.

[vvega]

yeah nethier that why im not to down with them
im gunna look into perhaps what i can do to make one that's sealed in the clamp
maybe we need to make a wet pack clutch setup...like a bike clutch .. multi plate etc

i mean reality club wise... if you dont submerse your engine in mud youll be fine
the problem with anythign do is they dont like been enguarde at engine speed... 300 rpm is bout teh max there happy with ... so unless your willing to turn off your engine to enguage your winch .. its not really IMO a acceptable option
i know there is a way around this and im sure well figure it out

[vvega]

actually... could just run the pump full time... it is just a bigger p/s pump so while your dring in town or around etc you just pull a pin out so no drive and when you 4wding you just leave it running ... your p/s pump runs all the time
just need to have good size diverter valve

[mercutio]

actually... could just run the pump full time... it is just a bigger p/s pump so while your dring in town or around etc you just pull a pin out so no drive and when you 4wding you just leave it running ... your p/s pump runs all the time
just need to have good size diverter valve

yeah i was thinking something along those lines so you only engage the clutch for the pump once for the day really

[vvega]

that swoudl work fine ... they dont have alike a service life really as long as they get good oil and its clean... they just will keep going
will need a oil cooler though

i think this idea simple easy so it will work to be reliable

ok well i need see what i can do to get a demo/winch pump and put it on a truck to see how well it goes
do some tests etc

[DieselBoy]

My hands up for trialing the demo

As for clutches, thought i might throw a centrifugal clutch into the mix.

The idea being, at idle the driven part of the clutch would have no torque being applied to it and technically be sationary, that would alow you to engage the dog clutch, then as engine rev's increased, the clutch engages like an ordinary centrifugal clutch does, and your then supplying power to the pump.

When the dog is not engaged, the centrifugal clutch will still be opperating when the engine rev's, but as it will not be under anyload, it won't be a big deal???

Oh, and they are simple and very easy to encase and seal

[mercutio]

My hands up for trialing the demo

As for clutches, thought i might throw a centrifugal clutch into the mix.

The idea being, at idle the driven part of the clutch would have no torque being applied to it and technically be sationary, that would alow you to engage the dog clutch, then as engine rev's increased, the clutch engages like an ordinary centrifugal clutch does, and your then supplying power to the pump.

When the dog is not engaged, the centrifugal clutch will still be opperating when the engine rev's, but as it will not be under anyload, it won't be a big deal???

Oh, and they are simple and very easy to encase and seal

now that isn't a silly idea either pete see what happens when everybody puts their heads together we get some great ideas

[vvega]

well we can give it a go BUT
i have build a few nitro bikes( turn a nifty fifty motor into a glowplug nitro motor) anf ive always had slip issues

again thouh,,,,, wahat happeneds when it gets water in it ?

what i need to do is get a winch .. mount it and then work on the drive systems from there
im going to go have a close look at see if these winches can take a 3000 psi motor and well just have to see how it works and rate's
still down to gunna have to test this shit out

[tgaguy1]

what i need to do is get a winch .. mount it and then work on the drive systems from there
im going to go have a close look at see if these winches can take a 3000 psi motor and well just have to see how it works and rate's
still down to gunna have to test this shit out

I can loan you a truck for as long as you want it. I have a few spare trucks in the shed. I can also loan you a brand new runva 12000 electric winch which you could remove the electric motor from and fit a hyd motor to prove the system. All I would ask in return would be a sharp price when i buy the finshed/tested system. I am coming over to Hamilton in 3 weeks, I can deliver it then if you like.

Jase

[vvega]

its funny you say that '
other than the different ratio planitary there really is no difference to a hydraulic winch to a electric one
but i really think that is the key i want to remove the planitary and do the ratio though the motor

ive been looking at a few of these ... can anyone show me some of the top rathed winches please ? need to see some more specs

[darinz]

It is important that the brake isn't in the drum so that there isn't heat buildup which will cause issues with running rope.

The winch I'm looking at using will have a 6:1 ratio and all I need of the motor is a chain drive. All the winch stuff is sorted. So I have a 3.5" drum that I want at least 5000kgs pull at the drum. Line speed of at least 40m/min at the drum. The drive for the pump must come off the crank pulley. The clutch etc must be able to work 100% when fully sub merged in mud and water.

I had been discussing when an hydro guy about continuous drive but the concern was that the pump would be geared for max power at 2-3000rpm and yet it would be required to run to over 7000rpm (no load of course) and this would generate a lot of heat in the fluid. So the solution was to use either a variable rate pump (expensive) or a clutch.
So how much heat would really build up if run continuously? During competitions as obviously a manual engage system can be used for the rest of the time.

[vvega]

your system is a little special... well a lot
i belive for you we really need to change from a gyrota motor to a bent axis or raidal piston to keep the sizes of things down and 5000kg on the bottom of the spool dosent really give you stuff all on your top run are you sure this is what you want ?
you wanna pm me a contact number and ill give you a yell need to be sure your on the same lines of thinking as me or vice versa

cheers

[DieselBoy]

So this is all very interesting so far.

I would like to take it back a peg, and look at it from a different angle.

The reason why i would like a hydro winch is due to the fact that it can run on a system independant of any other vehicle systems.

For example your electric winch relys on your vehicles electrical system to operate, and any fault in either has an effect on the other. We all know that the electrical system is the weakest link in a vehicle.

So Hydro winch for reliability is my thoughts.

For club class stuff, its no different to needing a good strong reliable winch for doing hardcore bush trips.

Thats the kind of Hydro winch i would like to set up. One thats not necceserily fast, but will keep going all day at a steady pace, with minimal fuss and issues.

It sounds to me like the P/S pump systems are good in that they don't flow huge quantities of oil and are going to be slow, but are able to be run connected to the engine all of the time with out cooking the oil. No need for the fancy clutches that we were all talking about earlier.

So you could set your self up with a big P/S pump, a couple of litres resivour, good oil cooler and a half decent winch, infact even a cheapy winch like VVega was talking about, especially if they run a Danfos replica motor, thats easy replacements. Other wise one of the Ramsey winches would be fine.

That would give you a simple hydro winch, that although not super fast, is fast enough, and would be simple and reliable and leave the vehicles electrical system alone so it can concentrate on keeping the motor running ??

[vvega]

oh yeah no worries .. even the p/s pump that would normally be used will give you the same pull all day long .. the only things that will cause issues are the brake heat and the winch line

you can buy a much bigger p/s pump .. like off a truck and that will give you more flow but there is only a limit to what you can make a belt do when its wet and convered in mud

in saying all that in such a case were your motor cant be used for about 1400 you can buy a little backup electric over hydro pump that would get you back on your wheels
TBH hydro winch's ATM are well over priced they are made from the same parts as a electri version .. IF how ever you were going to convert your electric to a hydro setup you woul dhave to spend a little more to get a higher speed motor
somethign like a bent axis piston pump

ive been today to see a man that is infinatly more knowlageable with pumps and motors today to discuss options for the dream comp system as well and something for the bush/club truck that can be used

db you have the right idea and it will take some time but there will be a answer there for it