Offroad-Express

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:51 pm**

vvega wrote:i dont think hes metioned at what rpm so i think its a little unfair to be making such asumption's
he might have 120kw @ 1000 rpm ....
i think the point of the threed was you told someone that there fume will make your truck blow up .. and right to now that simply untrue
its not the fume that makes it blow up its poor setup and poor tuning

If he's claiming 120kw, then that'll be peak and no that won't be at 1150rpm.

Putting down stock power levels is some pretty awesome setup and tuning.

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:54 pm**

smurf182 wrote:
wopass wrote:look at the humble bumble, he shouldnt be able to fly...but he does it with ease

Urban myth

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/5400/title/Flight_of_the_Bumblebee

Just like the 1000Nm cruiser engine. :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:56 pm**

hang fire how do you know were the power is ?
i cant see anywhere in the threed hes stated rpm .... or were hes actially stated anythign of the power .. i saw .. i think .. but that could be from thin air
no point making up stuff to abuse someone with and with no rpm or dyno figure produced yet .. thats what your actually doing
chill out please

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:00 pm**

vvega wrote:hang fire how do you know were the power is ?
i cant see anywhere in the threed hes stated rpm .... or were hes actially stated anythign of the power .. i saw .. i think .. but that could be from thin air
no point making up stuff to abuse someone with and with no rpm or dyno figure produced yet .. thats what your actually doing
chill out please

He started a thread to beat on me and did it with some blatantly bogus figures.
It backfired pretty spectacularly.

You can expect to be called on such things and you can expect the urine extraction to continue for some time.
Still waiting for the dyno charts, not sure we'll ever see them now.

wopass wrote:never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?)

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:09 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
vvega wrote:hang fire how do you know were the power is ?
i cant see anywhere in the threed hes stated rpm .... or were hes actially stated anythign of the power .. i saw .. i think .. but that could be from thin air
no point making up stuff to abuse someone with and with no rpm or dyno figure produced yet .. thats what your actually doing
chill out please

He started a thread to beat on me and did it with some blatantly bogus figures.
It backfired pretty spectacularly.

You can expect to be called on such things and you can expect the urine extraction to continue for some time.
Still waiting for the dyno charts, not sure we'll ever see them now.

wopass wrote:never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?)

no kiwi comon the only reason you got anything was because you yourself made a blatently incorect statement and now your getting nasty over it
i might be wrong and its just a opinion but right now your looking like a very sour person

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:14 pm**

Guys guys, if the MATHEMATICAL/GOOGLE master says you need 60psi to make 1000nm than that must be true :roll:

,real world experience dont mean shit unless it matches a mathematical equation on paper

come on guys think about.... :roll:

dont mess with a google master :lol:

Shane

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:20 pm**

With how long it has been around and how many companies sell kits with warranty, it amazes me that people still clam it will blow up the world. Yes it will kill your motor if done wrong, no one has ever said it won't. But it is like saying that a turbo is unreliable. Yes they use to be and all that but technology has a way of making things better.
Go and have a look at the Bully Dog site. This a big US company that has been doing these kits for new US vehicles for a long time. They were doing it about 4 or 5 years ago when I was looking at doing it on my winch truck. I didn't as I went V8 instead but with the right tuning it will work.

All I can say is propane fumigation (as it is called in the US) is not a trial and error thing and you can buy a kit like NOS ie 80hp etc.
So I say it isn't the LPG that causes detonation it is the tune. Tune it correctly and no problem. But that is like any performance motor. The goal is to balance between reliablity and performance. The more stressed amotor becomes the shorter it's life span. Detonation etc is a parramenter that you work within. Tuning detonation to audible levels is just plan stupid and claiming that as a practic is just the same. ANy good tuner will have a microphone as well as a wideband O2 sensor to use to set the tune. Just do the same with you LPY and no problem.

Also I bet that melted piston had an aftermarket turbo so that just proves that any aftermarket turbo kit will melt your motor! Or does it mean that a muppet tuned it with too high egt's?

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:52 pm**

darinz wrote:Also I bet that melted piston had an aftermarket turbo so that just proves that any aftermarket turbo kit will melt your motor! Or does it mean that a muppet tuned it with too high egt's?

Cummins 6, factory turbo.
The increase in EGT's was solely due to gas, the diesel system reportedly untouched.

Gas fumigation has been around for at least 25 years (there's a research paper dated 1986), the high fuel prices of recent years bought it back into popularity. Much like HHO and all the other devices which people hoped could save some fuel.

Audible detonation is indeed how many of these systems are tuned. Good to see you agree that's stupid.

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:54 pm**

Shane wrote:Guys guys, if the MATHEMATICAL/GOOGLE master says you need 60psi to make 1000nm than that must be true ,real world experience dont mean shit unless it matches a mathematical equation on paper come on guys think about....

dont mess with a google master

Shane

It has just been proven that BS alone can make 1000Nm. :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:57 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
vvega wrote:hang fire how do you know were the power is ?
i cant see anywhere in the threed hes stated rpm .... or were hes actially stated anythign of the power .. i saw .. i think .. but that could be from thin air
no point making up stuff to abuse someone with and with no rpm or dyno figure produced yet .. thats what your actually doing
chill out please

He started a thread to beat on me and did it with some blatantly bogus figures.
It backfired pretty spectacularly.

You can expect to be called on such things and you can expect the urine extraction to continue for some time.
Still waiting for the dyno charts, not sure we'll ever see them now.

wopass wrote:never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?)

actualy i started this thread to talk about fuming a diesel engine and if you do it right it works fine with good gains which is where it started in the tow wagon thread.

where are these blatantly bogus figures?? the only figures i have talked is what is printed on the dyno sheet which is in the glove box of the vehicle which is not mine so not accessable... the figures your making up out of thin air..or hot air i have no idea about :lol:

if i wanted to start a thread to beat on you i would have called it something much different :lol:

you want a piss take? ... what happened when you tried to fume???

theres a fail poster right there

FAIL

KiwiBacon wrote:Yep, run lpg into my diesel and it detonates violently.

thats a piss take :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:04 pm**

wopass wrote:never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?)

wopass wrote:actualy i started this thread to talk about fuming a diesel engine and if you do it right it works fine with good gains which is where it started in the tow wagon thread.

where are these blatantly bogus figures?? the only figures i have talked is what is printed on the dyno sheet which is in the glove box of the vehicle which is not mine so not accessable... the figures your making up out of thin air..or hot air i have no idea about

if i wanted to start a thread to beat on you i would have called it something much different

you want a piss take? ... what happened when you tried to fume???

theres a fail poster right there
thats a piss take

Show us your 1000Nm dyno chart. The one with 120kw.
You didn't say if that was with or without lpg fumigation?

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:06 pm**

PLAY NICELY BOYS

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:07 pm**

skid wrote:PLAY NICELY BOYS

It's all you need to drink

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:12 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
darinz wrote:Also I bet that melted piston had an aftermarket turbo so that just proves that any aftermarket turbo kit will melt your motor! Or does it mean that a muppet tuned it with too high egt's?

Cummins 6, factory turbo.
The increase in EGT's was solely due to gas, the diesel system reportedly untouched.

The failure to the piston was caused by excess egt's. Some muppet who didn't know how to tune lpg did it wrong and then blamed the gas rather than the lack of knowledge and ability. Adding gas just added to the fuel levels and so produced more power (and egt's) untill in melted. The fact that the fuel systme was untouched shows complete lack of understanding of how to make this work.

In a petrol what happens if you add NOS without adjusting the fuel. That;s right it melts the pistons as well. The comparisons are very close!

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:16 pm**

darinz wrote:With how long it has been around and how many companies sell kits with warranty, it amazes me that people still clam it will blow up the world. Yes it will kill your motor if done wrong, no one has ever said it won't. But it is like saying that a turbo is unreliable. Yes they use to be and all that but technology has a way of making things better.
Go and have a look at the Bully Dog site. This a big US company that has been doing these kits for new US vehicles for a long time. They were doing it about 4 or 5 years ago when I was looking at doing it on my winch truck. I didn't as I went V8 instead but with the right tuning it will work.

The bully-dog system is a "one size fits all" 80hp kit.

Sold as a kit, fitted by whoever. No tuning guide.
http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_ ... /10800.htm

So is that 80hp on a duramax or an olds 5.7?
Suitable for any turbo or non-turbo vehicle apparently.

Tuned on a dyno with a microphone to pick up detonation? Nope.

darinz wrote:The failure to the piston was caused by excess egt's. Some muppet who didn't know how to tune lpg did it wrong and then blamed the gas rather than the lack of knowledge and ability. Adding gas just added to the fuel levels and so produced more power (and egt's) untill in melted. The fact that the fuel systme was untouched shows complete lack of understanding of how to make this work.

In a petrol what happens if you add NOS without adjusting the fuel. That;s right it melts the pistons as well. The comparisons are very close!

The story is the system had several user selectable "power levels". Turns out the "most power" one wasn't so good for the engine. But the kit was sold and installed so that setting worked.
You'll be aware of the relationship between detonation and piston damage too. It's not EGT's alone.

Apparently the maker of the kit got their arsed sued off.

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:22 pm**

Mr Kiwibacon, take a chill pill.

Your making yourself look like a cock smack with a sore wrist.

Your initial claim was that LPG fumigation didn't work.

It has been proven that you are wrong.

Wopass quoted some figures from memory that may or may not be correct. I am sceptical also, but the actual numbers are besides the point, there are substantial Hp gains to be had.

Don't make your self look even worse in the eye of the 4wd public by trying to change the focus of the thread from diesel fumigation and whether it works, to whether or not Wopass has a good memory.

I know your gonna reply with a pile of negative crap, but try and restrain

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:39 pm**

DieselBoy wrote:Mr Kiwibacon, take a chill pill.

Your making yourself look like a cock smack with a sore wrist.

Your initial claim was that LPG fumigation didn't work.

It has been proven that you are wrong.

Wopass quoted some figures from memory that may or may not be correct. I am sceptical also, but the actual numbers are besides the point, there are substantial Hp gains to be had.

Don't make your self look even worse in the eye of the 4wd public by trying to change the focus of the thread from diesel fumigation and whether it works, to whether or not Wopass has a good memory.

I know your gonna reply with a pile of negative crap, but try and restrain

nice!

im so going to go grab/borrow/steal that bloody VX and try to find the sheet and show you man, its Orsum :mrgreen:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:42 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:The story is the system had several user selectable "power levels". Turns out the "most power" one wasn't so good for the engine.

So this is the same as having different boost levels and expecting everything else to cope. The whole point of a gas system is it puts in more fuel so unless you add more air the egt will go up. The detonation is caused by too much gas for the timing. The gas burns a lot faster than the desiel which is one of the benefits as long as there's enough air to allow it all to burn and that it doesn't pre-ignite due to poor timing etc.
It isn't rocket science and there was a very powerful TD42 running a Bully Dog system in 2004-5 in NZ winch comps. Gas has basically been canned on TD42's due to it not really providing anymore power than you can get from the normal pump, turbo and intercooler mods. It's like arguing that turbo's are better than superchargers. Yes turbo's are more efficient but SC still can make the same amount of power. So you can argue each way.

Now maybe we should start a thread on hydrogen fumigation and perpetual motion as these really are topics for this sort of BS discussion! :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:45 pm**

DieselBoy wrote:Mr Kiwibacon, take a chill pill.

Your making yourself look like a cock smack with a sore wrist.

Your initial claim was that LPG fumigation didn't work.

No it wasn't. :roll:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:49 pm**

darinz wrote:
KiwiBacon wrote:The story is the system had several user selectable "power levels". Turns out the "most power" one wasn't so good for the engine.

So this is the same as having different boost levels and expecting everything else to cope. The whole point of a gas system is it puts in more fuel so unless you add more air the egt will go up.

Yes, that's exactly it.

darinz wrote: The detonation is caused by too much gas for the timing.

No, unlike a petrol timing is not the cause of detonation. The detonation is caused by the cylinder temperatures and pressures being too high for the gas.
We can't simply retard the timing to cope like a petrol can.

darinz wrote:The gas burns a lot faster than the desiel which is one of the benefits as long as there's enough air to allow it all to burn and that it doesn't pre-ignite due to poor timing etc.

Agreed other than the timing. Interestingly many kit makers claim the lpg burns slower (bully dog is one of them). I have no idea why they think this happens.

darinz wrote:It isn't rocket science and there was a very powerful TD42 running a Bully Dog system in 2004-5 in NZ winch comps. Gas has basically been canned on TD42's due to it not really providing anymore power than you can get from the normal pump, turbo and intercooler mods. It's like arguing that turbo's are better than superchargers. Yes turbo's are more efficient but SC still can make the same amount of power. So you can argue each way.

This is another point I have been making. Diesel is a better source of power than gas fumigation, especially because there is no danger of detonation.

darinz wrote:Now maybe we should start a thread on hydrogen fumigation and perpetual motion as these really are topics for this sort of BS discussion!

Been done, try the search. :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:51 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
DieselBoy wrote:Mr Kiwibacon, take a chill pill.

Your making yourself look like a cock smack with a sore wrist.

Your initial claim was that LPG fumigation didn't work.

No it wasn't.

yes it was :roll:

KiwiBacon wrote:
UBZ wrote:(wonder how it would go with LPG injection.

It'd go bang.

LPG fumigation is bollocks and very hard on the engine for the power it delivers. Stick to diesel tuning, plenty of examples of hot-rod duramax on the net.

again

FAIL

KiwiBacon wrote:Yep, run lpg into my diesel and it detonates violently.

just admit defeat dude, if its done right it works fine :wink:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:54 pm**

wopass wrote:
KiwiBacon wrote:
DieselBoy wrote:Mr Kiwibacon, take a chill pill.

Your making yourself look like a cock smack with a sore wrist.

Your initial claim was that LPG fumigation didn't work.

No it wasn't.

yes it was

KiwiBacon wrote:
UBZ wrote:(wonder how it would go with LPG injection.

It'd go bang.

LPG fumigation is bollocks and very hard on the engine for the power it delivers. Stick to diesel tuning, plenty of examples of hot-rod duramax on the net.

You've shown you can quote it, but it appears you can't read it.

again

wopass wrote:FAIL
KiwiBacon wrote:Yep, run lpg into my diesel and it detonates violently.

Would you like a video showing the engine jumping up and down in violent protest?

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:56 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:Would you like a video showing the engine jumping up and down in violent protest?

HELL YEAH

vids are waaaay better than pics

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:58 pm**

that would be hilarious!!!

then i could watch and laugh at the same time :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:59 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
darinz wrote:
KiwiBacon wrote:The story is the system had several user selectable "power levels". Turns out the "most power" one wasn't so good for the engine.

So this is the same as having different boost levels and expecting everything else to cope. The whole point of a gas system is it puts in more fuel so unless you add more air the egt will go up.

Yes, that's exactly it.

darinz wrote: The detonation is caused by too much gas for the timing.

No, unlike a petrol timing is not the cause of detonation. The detonation is caused by the cylinder temperatures and pressures being too high for the gas.
We can't simply retard the timing to cope like a petrol can.

umm no
cylander presure is the reason for det in a petrol engine as well
and timing will not always fix it

run to lean ... you get det and burnt valves
run to rich .. you get bore wash
run to much timing you get det and burnt valves
run to little timing you get massive egt's
run to much compresson .. you get det
run to little compression.. it wont go
then we go onto cam phasing air intake temps the quality of your swirl and tumble boundry layer effects pulse tuning of the intake and the exhaust, valve material

there are so many reasons you get det its not funny in a petrol engine .. seriously
if all you have to do with a d is thrown in fuel and boost untill it goes bang then you have it easy
petrols and more specifically 2 strokes make d's look like kids playfrom a tuning aspect
so please ... dont make it sound like a petrol is eazy ... when its far from it

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:01 pm**

just flop them out and see whos is really bigger :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:03 pm**

You only get 1000nm? I've got 2000nm

:roll:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:04 pm**

haynzy wrote:just flop them out and see whos is really bigger

i have a tiny one, everyone knows that :lol:

this is why i have a massive winch a V8 and big tyres :wink:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:07 pm**

Andrew1706 wrote:You only get 1000nm? I've got 2000nm

ohh now youve done it :lol:

i was wondering when someone was gonna say that!!

love it, NM is cool, HP is for poofs :lol:

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:07 pm**

wopass wrote:
haynzy wrote:just flop them out and see whos is really bigger

i have a tiny one, everyone knows that this is why i have a massive winch a V8 and big tyres

my call, may be very small but makes me very happy :lol:

Offroad-Express

WAS fume'ing (now more of a flaming thread...)

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