Rotorua Winch Challenge 2009 (RWC 09)

[haynzy]

so is there gonna be a club class?

[wopass]

so is there gonna be a club class?

if you have a wof and reg and all the saftey requirements are met and its all legit then you can compete... but un the same class as the rest of everybody, as far as i can see there is no club class so to speak.

the RWC is a stand alone event and by the looks of the last few years pics of the event that i can find it looks ORSUM!!

will be looking real long and hard at the possiblity of running in this event myself

[Madaz]

Sweet as if its ran as a stand alone event,

BUT,,,,

Maybe 4x4 Challenges should be looking at awarding points to its members relative to their finishing positions to keep its National point standings correct.

Just a thought

[4WDbits]

Sweet as if its ran as a stand alone event,

BUT,,,,

Maybe 4x4 Challenges should be looking at awarding points to its members relative to their finishing positions to keep its National point standings correct.

Just a thought

Its up to the organisers of the event to decide if they want to be aligned with the points series. Personally I would expect more more entries if they are.

[Jungle]

I better add some more to the topic.

I can see a way through this. It would work a bit like this.

We could still run two classes and be affiliated with 4x4 challenges so points could be taken for this North Island series.
All trucks would need to meet our criteria and all trucks will race the same tracks and be mixed in with the the other class. So basically it would work like the old tyre class we used to run. 35 inch and 32 inch class. They all did the same event and we just split the results at the end.

Does that makes sense to anyone.

Obviously our 28 day WOF and Rego would still apply.

May be a bit late though. Cut off date is 12th of April. So unless there is a hoard of entrants over the next day or so we wont have an event.

Cheers

Jungle

[diffsx2]

hey jungle, i doubt if youll fill those entrys this far out from the comp, the challenge guys are a bunch of slack arses and only want to enter a couple of weeks before hand. the norwest was on and off again and only went ahead on account of phoning the competitors and getting assurances that they would be there, they aint big on paperwork and sure as hell dont realise the pressure on the orginisers who dont know who is turning up if at all! nor do they realise all the work securing sponsors and land/tracks etc that goes into a event of this sort and the damage that can be done to sponsor relations when you have to cancel due to lack of entries. on a positve note though i have heard of plenty of talk by guys up here that they are going but it dont mean much without the confirmation ay! good luck and i hope it does go ahead cause its always a primo comp!

Cheers Rob,

[monstr]

Hi George ,i have asked this question on 4x4 challenges web site a week or so ago but no reply so ill try here .If the RWC is running 4x4 challenges rules and vehical specs etc then why do we need a new WOF ? one of the selling point for people to join 4x4 challenges was if you join and get a log book you would only need a current wof to race ,this was the case with Norwest and is going to be the same for Northland ,why is Rotorua different ,surely the land owners dont require a brand new wof .Steve

[Jungle]

Hey Steve.

The RWC committee has made a decision to ask for a WOF that is less than a month old.

Thats it!!!

Cheers

George

[danger mouse racing]

gene and justen the danger mouse boys will be entering club class cheers

[smiddy]

if you guys have made a decision about the warrants then fair enough, but you said previously that there was the possibility of running in conjunction in 4x4 challenges with the tyre limit thing. This meaning if it is run in conjunction with 4x4challenges surely we could still use the 'benefits' of the logbook? I think if you want to attract competitiors then you need to consider running with 4x4challenges, It was thought up by several people with the intention to grow the sport within NZ.
and another topic ... The tracks that you are going to be using, are they similiar to last years event with cut down pine forests that kick off fan belts and supercharger belts?? this question has already been asked by seems to have been avoided.

most competitiors i think wont make a decision to compete at rotora until they have ascessed the damage (if any) from whangarei.

[shortylux]

Im going to get myself in trouble here.

RWC09 have said you need a warrant that is less than 28 days old. They have said it is a condition of the land owner. They have made it clear that this is something they are not going to negotiate on.

I would rather not have to get a fresh warrant myself, but lets just leave it eh. If you want to compete, a warrant is not going to to be a big part of your time or cost.

Here's hoping the event goes ahead.

Arron.

[mudhaw]

No offence to anyone but "WOFs" for many of the comps past and present are a (bleep) joke.
As i have a current WOF licence, I can tell you that even without doing a complete check on most of the vehicals that enter, they are not up to standard for road use.
As for scrutineering, they should only need to be checking safety issues eg. roll cages, winch ropes, recovery gear, helmets, non WOF items.
As for checking steering and brakes, lights etc... does that not then make the scrutineer liable???
I think this should be looked at in greater detail at the next 4x4 challangers meeting.

As for WOFs for RWC, if the land owner specifies you have to have a WOF, and wear a pink tutu, that's how it has to be! It is their land, if you don't want to follow their rules, don't be on their land. Even club runs abide by the landowners wishes.

[Jafa]

and another topic ... The tracks that you are going to be using, are they similiar to last years event with cut down pine forests that kick off fan belts and supercharger belts?? this question has already been asked by seems to have been avoided.

If you already know about this problem, build your truck to allow for it, prevent the problem from occuring

[mudhaw]

PS. Nice mo, Ben!!!

[mudzilla]

, and wear a pink tutu, that's how it has to be!

Gees, Come on one trip to the Waikato and ya want to be a cheerleader

[darinz]

No offence to anyone but "WOFs" for many of the comps past and present are a (bleep) joke.
As i have a current WOF licence, I can tell you that even without doing a complete check on most of the vehicals that enter, they are not up to standard for road use.
As for scrutineering, they should only need to be checking safety issues eg. roll cages, winch ropes, recovery gear, helmets, non WOF items.
As for checking steering and brakes, lights etc... does that not then make the scrutineer liable???
I think this should be looked at in greater detail at the next 4x4 challangers meeting.

This has been gone over a lot at meetings which is why the Logbook system has been introduced.
No offence to anyone in particlar but it is extremely difficult when people use bits and peices of the rules to suit themselves. They do this without understanding why rules have been made and why they have been changed. As pointed out above, the old scrutineering system puts a lot of liability on the scrutineer and their public liability will not cover them for this. This is why we changed the rule. It has nothing to do with changing the safety standard and everything about making the running of events easier and so encourage more people to do it.

The reason a 28 day WOF was required is about vehicle modification NOT vehicle worthiness. What was happening is guys would get a WOF and then go and modify the truck. It then techically has a WOF so can compete even though it isn't legal. So the 28 day WOF reduced the time guys had to make changes.
The logbook has photo's and more detail around LVVTA certs so when combined with a current WOF it controls the modification issue much better.
The problem with the logbook at present is it doesn't have an adequate safety inspection proceedure and this is the reason RWC is requiring a 28 day WOF.
So it is quite obvious that because the reason for the rule isn't understood (in this case) then a rule has been modified but for the wrong reason and so doesn't achieve what was desired. This doesn't change the fact that they (RWC) have the right to require competitors to do anything at all. As a competitor you have to decide whether you want to go and if you do, then comply with the rules and turn up.

[vvega]

darrin its a very overly complicated system and in all honesty the 28 day wof item will not absolve anyone if the shit hits the fan
basically every vehical should have there cert papers there with a current wof and the scruit need to do his job properly
basically what hes checking is
saftey shit ... roll bar med kit helmets that fit properly etc etc
if you want to start concerning yourself with cert compliance ... its a whole different ball game and honestly you dont even come close to meeting those requirements as a motorsport

there is no valid reason for asking for a 28 day wof .. once you have a wof you have legally meet the requirements for driving that vehical on the road .. its that simple ..

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:H8l ... =firefox-a

have a read of that and modle your system off that

that is a even were people are doing 200 + km/h on the roads .. have had accdents including death and public liability
why try to reinvent the wheel ... this system is far better than the current winch challange rules is proven to cover all aspects of liablity AND allows pre scrut

dunno
IMO compared to a current motorsport nz event .. the rules there are in place seam silly because they dont protect anyone from liability .. and that in itself completely compramises the point of having them

so why not bring yourself into alignment with motorsport nz .. and enjoy the ease and the proven liability protection these rules offer ??

Presentation

Your car must be presented for competition in immaculate condition. Cars not meeting the standards we expect will not be able to start. For instance scruffy paintwork (chipped, dirty, dull or damaged), scruffy wheels and interiors likewise won’t be accepted. Sorry gravel chaps - you will have some work to do! Rally type mud-flaps must be removed, however the smaller original mudflaps are acceptable

FOR DOCUMENTATION / SCRUTINEERING

* Civil Licence
* Motorsport Licence
* Proof of current MNZ or CAMS Affiliated

Club Membership. Join Club Targa now if not.

* Log Book
* Motorsport Authority Card, (NZ Only)
* Roll Cage Homologation Number
* Warrant of Fitness and Registration
* Proof of 3rd Party Insurance
* Helmet, flameproof overalls and gloves
* Safety Triangle, First Aid Kit, Fire

Extinguisher, Tow rope.

* Money for Car Wash, ($5.00 per day)

and passage control $2.00 per stop

* 1 Spare wheel
* RACE CAR!
* DRIVER AND CO-DRIVER!
* Go to Drivers / Co-drivers briefing

[PeterVahry]

4x4 Challenges NZ have looked at the Motorsport NZ rules and Targa etc and believe that we have a useful balance. The process of checking competing vehicles follows MSNZ, in that it is an 'audit' to check that the vehicle agrees with the statement by the driver/owner that it conforms to the rules.

A WoF is only as good as the vehicle condition and the NZ Police can put a vehicle off the road for non-compliance even if it has a current sticker. We always have realised that competition will probably result in non-compliance but the rules also state that it is the driver's responsibility to observe NZ law.

The WoF and certification requirement is simply to identify that a professional inspector has done a check of the safety features of a vehicle. Beyond that, the event organisers can chose to run a full or partial audit on any vehicle both before and during a competition to check compliance with the event rules.

To adopt the Motorsport NZ process and protocol by aligning with that body creates a whole array of organisational challenges including insurance cover, event scheduling, cost, etc.

The 4x4 Challenges NZ rules have evolved since 2000 and in the main parallel those used in Australia to allow interaction with events. So far the rules have worked for many events, even allowing for local specifics and some variation.

[vvega]

4x4 Challenges NZ have looked at the Motorsport NZ rules and Targa etc and believe that we have a useful balance. The process of checking competing vehicles follows MSNZ, in that it is an ‘audit’ to check that the vehicle agrees with the statement by the driver/owner that it conforms to the rules.

A WoF is only as good as the vehicle condition and the NZ Police can put a vehicle off the road for non-compliance even if it has a current sticker. We always have realised that competition will probably result in non-compliance but the rules also state that it is the driver's responsibility to observe NZ law.

2 points
If this is your conditions then why are vehicles that have been damaged in a way that means they would be unwarrantable why do you allow them to continue to race?
If it was targa your car would be deemed unfit to compete
So really that is just is a double standered that isn’t even enforced so why require it in the first place?
I mean really if a copper decided to take offence to this walk in and pink sticker your trucks what woudl happen then
And if someone got accidentally killed buy or in such a vehicle who do you think would roll for that?

If you make something a mandate for a event then at anytime you no longer comply with that mandate you are disqualified for lack of eligibility

I’ll put it another way to make it easier

Little sonny winch truck gets his WoF and compliance... drives up to compete gets though scrut and then rolls his truck ripps of a guard smash's his screen .. Has no light left on the truck after the first hazard?
he then fix's his truck up and continues competing.....even though the truck no longer could pass a WoF

Mean while
Older Bessie winch truck is a well built purpose machine
Is just as safe to the drivers and public would breeze though sruit but because it’s not a registed vehicle can’t compete for whatever reason

How is that any different?
First you admit that it will probably result in non compliance... then you say its the drivers responsibility / descresion to continue ... why not ust give that descresion fromt he get go and have a better audit

the reason the msnz system works is that if another competitor thinks one of the other cars is breaking the rules they get a full audit done on their truck and disqualified for it + a fine
How many times do you think that would happen before competitors would realise that honesty is the best policy

To adopt the Motorsport NZ process and protocol by aligning with that body creates a whole array of organisational challenges including insurance cover, event scheduling, cost, etc.

This sort of says to me that you do this because you think that making trucks have a WoF will indemnify the organisers from fault in the case of accident
They thought that in targa as well ...... and had to change their rules after a very nasty accident many years back

im not trying to start a fight or be a #### but it makes no sence to enforce somethign that is condition of entry when you dont even eforce it after the fact
it just seams like instead of rules tha make sence it sounds like a our way or the high way type deal
i have no doubt the reasoning for these things and the the intentions are good i just think that asking for a wof is stupid when 5 mins later half the trucks are un wofable ... except steve cause that fulla is awsome

[monstr]

Hi Wayne just one or two points ,If a truck roll during a winch challenge .it has to be rechecked before it can continue to compete ,this has happened many times in the past and as long as the truck is deemed safe its allowed to continue ,i think i speak for many of the competitors when i say the last thing we want is more rules and to see trucks pulled from comps for missing lights etc ,By the very nature of the sport we compete in it would be very hard to keep a truck up to pristine condition during an entire event .and i personally think the rules we have been running under for the last 6 or so years work fine for what we do .
as a side note correct me if im wrong but as i understand them if we were to follow the rules you suggest it would mean that after last years RWC the Northland WC and this years Norwest if you were to follow LTSA rules to the letter every vehical that competed should be taken of the road as they all had there chassis submerged under water ?
Steve

[vvega]

lol steve i know exactly what your saying and i agree completely
but thats the point .. why not just have a proper scrut to check for complaince and stuff the wof
i dont doubt at all the intentions are for saftey and they you guys are professional comepditors( talking to you first hand shows me that )
so why ask for a 28 wof .. when you could just have a good scrut .. that could even be done the day before ..
Then the liability rests with the drive as the organisers have completed there obligations
i agree they have to be usefull and workable for the sport .. but why have a rule that isnt a requirement to compete .. but is a requirement to enter
there are ways to close roads so that wofs are not required .....

and yes .. from my understanding .. if you submurge your chassis .. its spose to be a serious issue one that requires a engineers report
if your truck had abs or a airbag and you submerge your air bag wiring .. you acutually required to replace it ..
spent a little bit of time complying sumbermarines in chch for a importer ...

cheers for you time mate ...

[darinz]

I agree with basically everything you've said in principle but it isn't quite that easy unfortunately.

Also you are arguing about something that you don't fully understand. A 28 day WOF has nothing to do with vehicle legality. Never has and never will. That is also why we changed the rule. Like you said it doesn't achieve a thing, but you have missed the point. The RWC are implementing and old rule that we changed. If you read what I have said you will see that it is a voulantary organisation. IT is up to the NZFWDA to force rules upon us not 4x4 Ch. We are here to provide best practice and do it is such a way that people want to abide by the rules. The 28 day WOF was there so that in theory there wasn't enough time to do mods requiring an LVVTA cert between the WOF and the event. It was there as a form of compliance rather than a safety measure. What you are saying is correct and we are totally on the same page as we have already done what you are saying!

Take this as it is intended which is not a personal insult or attack but you haven't been around the sport for long and don't know the history and how things have developed and are developing still. Yes we need tighter safety regs, inspections etc but basically we have a bunch of guys who are very independant, build what they want and how they want. We have no presedent to force change (or mandant) so we have to do it via logical and reasonable arguement. And changes are fought very strongly by a lot of people so if we try and do too much at anyone time then it will be a complete waste of time.
Waving a big stick will be a complete waste of time. This is a voulantary organisation that is trying to direct the sport with everyone in support. To do that we must be careful in the approach and be certain that what we are doing is safe etc. Our current record does support itself in that there have been no major injuries and basically the rules have kept pace with vehicle developments etc. A couple of years ago it was discussed whether winch challenges would be better served by another organisation ie MSNZ or ORANZ but doe to many reasons no was the answer.

The MSNZ process is so close to our logbook system that I can't believe you say ours is complicated?
You apply for a logbook and that records the vehicle specs, mods and rollcage compliance forms.
You turn up to race with

Safety gear
Log book
WOF
Reg
LVVTA cert plate (if required)
Driver license
club membership
insurance

If at anytime someone thinks your truck doesn't comply with the rules then they can protest and if it doesn't comply the truck is disqualified. This happened in the 2006 Kiwi Challenge and the shitfight from that was mind blowing. There is still hang ups and political bullshit floating aroung from that and it was 3 years ago!!!

So while you have made a lot of very relevant points, they are ones we are completely aware of and are working through. You have also made coment about things that you haven't done you full homework upon and made statements that are very emotional but aren't 100% acurate. They maybe from the MSNZ side of things but not from ours.
Like Peter said we have modeled our system on MSNZ, ORANZ and CCDA. The whole process is actually quite easy.

Mate you have a lot of experience and getting that knowledge to be of assistance to us to improve things would great but you need to be aware of the history otherwise we end going over the same things time and again and we have other things that are more urgent. I've also said this before but you need to be aware of why rules are there as that has a lot of bearing upon the how.
Give me a call to discuss it further as I know our attitudes are the same and you are actually just saying alot of what I've been though and are either working towards or have discounted due to other reasons.
The more people who will actually get involved in improving things the better. People who just stirr things up are a pain in the arse as they actually slow down the improvement by putting the focus on things that nothing can be done about. ie we need action not best intentions!!

[vvega]

cheers darinz my post is and was a bit toung in cheek as i dont know anything about the sport as a compeditor or as a organiser
tbh i think the wof comments wete more aimed at the rwc than 4x4 challanges

regaudless ive taken what youve said onboard and will give you a call later to discuss
i realise both you and steve are not silly and i hope nethier have taken anything out of it bar a good discussion :d

cheers guys

[darinz]

Mate we know you are a stirrer!!!!!!! But one with a wee bit of an idea!

[vvega]

ohhh joooooo lubzzz me :d
lol

[Madaz]

Are there any updates on if the event is going ahead?

Cheers

[team-camz]

Hi all!

First and foremost thank you all for your interest in the RWC09 event!

I have been asked by Jungle to post on this forum in regard to the questions raised about if the event is going ahead. This will be the only time that I will personally post so will try to make this as helpful as possible.

As per the "Application for Entry" information made available, a cut off date of Sunday 12th April 2009 was given for entrys and deposits to be returned. 16 entrys were requested to run the event. I understand that there were some concerns and issues that needed to be addressed which was time consuming, being resolved very close to the cut off date.

Next week the RWC09 Committee will be meeting to assess where we are placed in a number of areas, at which I will have to advise on the number of "confirmed" applications "received". I have personally spoken to competitors as too have other members of the RWC09 Committee, and we well and truely have the numbers to run the event without a doubt, BUT, we need to get the registration forms and deposits returned as soon as possible, (preferably before Wednesday 29th April 2009, next week).

Ideally, I would like to present to the RWC09 Committee next week all the required admin they have asked for from competitors.

I would like to extend a HUGE thank you to those who have returned their forms and deposits thus far. At time of writing I have had forms and deposits received from the following:

Gene Batty
Tony Differ
Aaron Eades
Tim Fensom
Stan Goodman
Wayne Lovejoy
Stephen Reed
Nigel Reid
Christopher Smith
Aaron Smythe

To satisfy the RWC09 Committee, I need a minimum of six more applications returned. The forms can be sent to any of the following:

Email - Cam@team-camz.co.nz

Fax - (07) 346 1411

Post - RWC09
Geyserland 4WD Club
PO Box 2085
ROTORUA 3040

Deposits can be made by cheque to the address above or by direct credit to the following account:

Geyserland 4WD Club
Westpac Rotorua
03-1552-0203644-000

If you have any questions in regard to the "Application For Entry" and deposits, please feel free to contact me direct on (07) 346 1411 or 021 205 0761 and I will try to assist. As a reminder, this link will take you to a downloadable PDF of the "Application For Entry" form:

http://www.geyserland4wd.co.nz/download ... ration.pdf

Kindest regards,
Cameron Burrows
Event Administrator

[wopass]

better not be bloody snowing

best i get a few things sorted out on the bus eh... some more late nights ahead i think

[monstr]

Hi Ben ,Have you entered this year? Who"s the poor bugger thats going to get cold and wet in the Co drivers seat ..steve

[wopass]

yeap...gawd were gonna freeeeeezzzeeee

and at this stage i have no idea

but probly Jungle George or Cam the Man as they have offered to be runner if i get there and still need a navi

have a few things to sort by then like...where the hell am i gonna stick my spare so i dont have to pull it off to get into the bloody reco gear box might be rear bar work makin time i think