Full Throttle at Manukau City at Labour Weekend

[BrentC]

SPEED - Definition: distance travelled per unit time

[Sadam_Husain]

Still a lot of work to do yet Marty - in this instance Speed won't necessarily mean Fast, the venue is your typical wet Auckland clay goop.

However the organisers have a collective 100 years of organizing 4wd and sporting events - they won't skimp on safety.

Dont get me wrong Brent I recognise that you guys and your clubs up there are pretty active in the thankless task of organising and running events for the bennefit of everyone else and I take my hat off to you guys coz we dont get much of that sort of stuff down here but to me the "voluntary" helmet requirement for a "competition" seems to be sending the wrong message, all it takes is the stroke of a pen and helmets are compulsary, it dosent take any more time or effort to do that and then your not only promoting basic motor sport safety and practises but also covering everyones arses if there is an accident and injury

I hope the helmet requirement is still under consideration for the event

[BrentC]

I hope the helmet requirement is still under consideration for the event

I am sure it is - all depends upon what the digger driver is able to create in the limited space etc

Out the back of the events centre

[Pedro]

SPEED - Definition: distance travelled per unit time

or

SPEED - Defintion: dictated by stopwatch and drivers one up-manship!!!!

I am pretty sure if helmets are not used and some one is injured requiring hospital treatment then 100 years experience will mean squat in a court of law and the first question from prosecution will be "why were helmets not used!!!!?"



You want to run a safe event, then helmets must be used, particularly in a competition style event against a clock,

[jeremy]

The original idea was to also have a track where the public could test out their 4wd, but that's no longer on the cards. So now we are just focusing on the side-by-side race track, which of-course will require helmets (I call it a race but speeds will be low due to the nature of the track).

The track design will be based fairly closely on the Winch Challenge demo we did at the Pukekohe V8 Supercars in 2004 (for those of you who were there). The idea is to not require any winching, but a co-driver will be needed for some 'other' task.

There is potential to run another track for shiny's and club trucks to go for a causal drive ('play') in-between race sessions.

When not in use, the vehicles will be on display in the car park for the public to get a close-up look.

I went out yesterday to check out the plot of land we've been allocated, and we should be able to put on a good show with good spectator viewing. It could be quite swampy in places if this rain keeps up! No-doubt it's a great opportunity to get plenty of exposure for your sponsors, and to promote our sport and recreation.

As I understand it, anyone who's a member of a NZFWDA club, can take part if they register with Peter. Email the address listed at http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/news/252 if you're interested in taking part in the race, the casual drive bit, or just to have your vehicle on display.

[Pedro]

The original idea was to also have a track where the public could test out their 4wd, but that's no longer on the cards. So now we are just focusing on the side-by-side race track, which of-course will require helmets (I call it a race but speeds will be low due to the nature of the track).

Hallelujah some one with common sense, thanks for that, I personally don't really care if it is nzfwda members or public, but a helmet should be used regardless of event , particularly if a stop watch is in use.

Pedro

[skid]

its all right boys, they're doing a low speed event, so the helmets won't be needed unless someone turns up in one of these super duper offroad machines.........

[Pedro]

its all right boys, they're doing a low speed event, so the helmets won't be needed unless someone turns up in one of these super duper offroad machines.........

that will be the latest Remuera tractor i take it

[BrentC]

which of-course will require helmets .

Jeez Jeremy - why did you tell them that? - Laurel and Hardy (with their helmets on) were having so much fun

[jeremy]

Sorry for spoiling your fun Brent

[TJ]

Now that the helmet brigade has moved in, you better make it clear what type of helmet is acceptable. Someone might consider bicycle helmet to be sufficient protection. We all know, if you are in trouble enough helmets only go so far.

We should probably make it mandatory for everyone to wear fire and race suits, after all 4x4 run on fuel and fuel can catch fire.....

How about airbags for spectators.

I am seriously disappointed with this attitude. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and being in control and drive to conditions (under a stop watch or not).

[Sadam_Husain]

Now that the helmet brigade has moved in, you better make it clear what type of helmet is acceptable. Someone might consider bicycle helmet to be sufficient protection. We all know, if you are in trouble enough helmets only go so far.

We should probably make it mandatory for everyone to wear fire and race suits, after all 4x4 run on fuel and fuel can catch fire.....

How about airbags for spectators.

I am seriously disappointed with this attitude. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and being in control and drive to conditions (under a stop watch or not).

Helmets in a competition is personal responsibility

[TJ]

Helmets in a competition is personal responsibility

Okay, now that the event is now deemed to be a serious enough competition with high enough speeds that helmet is a safety item, what about a proper roll cage and safety harness? Aren't they then personal responsibility as well? Don't tell me you seriously believe a normal seat belt is sufficient in a roll over situation to properly restraint occupants.

[Sadam_Husain]

Okay, now that the event is now deemed to be a serious enough competition with high enough speeds that helmet is a safety item, what about a proper roll cage and safety harness? Aren't they then personal responsibility as well? Don't tell me you seriously believe a normal seat belt is sufficient in a roll over situation to properly restraint occupants.

I'm guessing you've got your nose out of joint the way you've started posting but they are valid points you've raised that should be taken into concideration and assessed by the competition organisers

But what I dont understand is why you seem to have a problem with helmets being required for the event?

[BrentC]

The man in charge is coming for Lunch tomorrow - I will ask him what has been decided


No doubt he (Pedro and Skids arch enemy), Peter and Jeremy will have been planning safety for the event.

[jeremy]

I am seriously disappointed with this attitude. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and being in control and drive to conditions (under a stop watch or not).

TJ, Helmets are not an unusual request - they are normal safety equipment for competition. Remember that this is a public event to promote our sport, and running such a race without helmets would not reflect well on us.

[TJ]

I'm guessing you've got your nose out of joint the way you've started posting but they are valid points you've raised that should be taken into concideration and assessed by the competition organisers

But what I dont understand is why you seem to have a problem with helmets being required for the event?

My problem is not helmets, it is the definition of competition and purpose / objectives of this event. It started out as a open to public for participation fun short run course where I would not expect man on the street with a 4x4 to have much experience. Expecting public to have a helmet available to participate would have been impractical. Inherently the course design would have made sure these aspects were considered thereby mitigating any potential problems.

Now in the next scenario, same event but with helmets required. The organiser would have had to provide the helmets to public? Then if that helmet was not "up to the task" then the liability is with the provider of the helmet (NZFWDA). Thats not a good look either.

Now the final iteration of this event is more towards club members. Great, people with more experience. So whats the objective? Daily drivers having fun or serious rigs competiting?

My problem is with people suggesting if we don't have a helmet, all hell will break loose and someone will die. The problem is bigger than that. If the course design allows such high speeds and dangerous conditions then you have to go full hog on safety and run it as a proper event under full competition rules. You cannot have half-n-half (helmet is needed, but harness and roll cage are okay). Now if the course designers make sure that it is for Joe Club Member to show his/her skills a little and have fun, how is that different from a normal club trip? We are not required to wear helmets on club trip. And yes, gymkhana type events at club level also have stop watches and it does become a bit competitive but nobody asks for helmets and all.

I am all for safety, but lets keep it realistic and practical for organisers to manage and average person to have fun.

[TJ]

TJ, Helmets are not an unusual request - they are normal safety equipment for competition. Remember that this is a public event to promote our sport, and running such a race without helmets would not reflect well on us.

As I have said in my other post, I don't have a problem with helmets themselves. I have been around competitions and know a thing or two about safety and PR (particularly when its open for spectators).

Is it a fun event or serious competition? We start putting helmets in fun events and pretty soon that will extend to anything that is not on the road (you can imagine the precedent it sets for media - any accident off-road and the question would be "were the people wearing helmets"?). If it is fun event, then course designers will have to make sure it is managed that way.

Now if we do it as a proper competition to show that side of four wheeling, wonderful. But we need proper safety for that (and not just helmets).

I am part of Auckland 4wd Club and fully understand implications here.

[Pedro]

The man in charge is coming for Lunch tomorrow - I will ask him what has been decided


No doubt he (Pedro and Skids arch enemy), Peter and Jeremy will have been planning safety for the event.

he being who????

don't rate yourselves that high!!



pedro

[BrentC]

The man in charge is coming for Lunch tomorrow - I will ask him what has been decided


No doubt he (Pedro and Skids arch enemy), Peter and Jeremy will have been planning safety for the event.

he being who????

don't rate yourselves that high!!

pedro

[skid]

TJ, it seems you have decided to come back into this thread and say your piece without actually following what has been written in previous posts.

Now I decided I wasnt going to post on this thread again, but have chosen to point out a few things you seem to have missed.

As an update on the Full Throttle 4x4 activity, it was always stated that this was still in the planning stages, as we've been dealing with Manukau City events people. A meeting on-site this evening about the logistics of incorporating a 4x4 activity into the program on the Telstra Events Centre site, has identified that public vehicles won't be able to access the area set aside for us.

That will mean that only members of the NZFWDA clubs involved, will be able to participate in the driving.
We sorted a basic layout of the two tracks and arrangements for water to fill holes and wash vehicles. It looks like there will be a fair bit of mud unless we get some very drying weather over the next 3 weeks.

There is also the option now of creating a third track that can be used to drive through with members of the public as passengers, or simply as a 'play' area for club vehicles.

so all of your ranting in the last few posts todays seems to be wasted as you failed to notice that the public wont be driving it now.


Skid out

[wgtnnewbie]

I'm guessing you've got your nose out of joint the way you've started posting but they are valid points you've raised that should be taken into concideration and assessed by the competition organisers

But what I dont understand is why you seem to have a problem with helmets being required for the event?

My problem is not helmets, it is the definition of competition and purpose / objectives of this event. It started out as a open to public for participation fun short run course where I would not expect man on the street with a 4x4 to have much experience. Expecting public to have a helmet available to participate would have been impractical. Inherently the course design would have made sure these aspects were considered thereby mitigating any potential problems.

Now in the next scenario, same event but with helmets required. The organiser would have had to provide the helmets to public? Then if that helmet was not "up to the task" then the liability is with the provider of the helmet (NZFWDA). Thats not a good look either.

Now the final iteration of this event is more towards club members. Great, people with more experience. So whats the objective? Daily drivers having fun or serious rigs competiting?

My problem is with people suggesting if we don't have a helmet, all hell will break loose and someone will die. The problem is bigger than that. If the course design allows such high speeds and dangerous conditions then you have to go full hog on safety and run it as a proper event under full competition rules. You cannot have half-n-half (helmet is needed, but harness and roll cage are okay). Now if the course designers make sure that it is for Joe Club Member to show his/her skills a little and have fun, how is that different from a normal club trip? because this would be in the publics eye. We are not required to wear helmets on club trip. And yes, gymkhana type events at club level also have stop watches and it does become a bit competitive but nobody asks for helmets and all. because generally these are out of public scrutiny

I am all for safety, but lets keep it realistic and practical for organisers to manage and average person to have fun.

I'm guessing the course will be set up so that there isn't excessive speed involved, but as it's open for public viewing then a certain standard of safety will have to be adhered to. Helmets are the most visual cause you can always tell if someone has a helmet on. Roll cages and full harnesses can't be seen from a distance (unless on an open topped vehicle). So really it's covering their own arses against someone from the public complaining that there was no safety equipment used. Last thing the guys organising this would need is a osh investigation instigated by joe public because they couldn't see safety equipment being used.
Remember the public aren't using it but will be able to see it otherwise whats the point of holding the event.

these are only my opinions and not an attack at anyone.

steve out

[lilpigzuk]

bugger that the guys heading to funganui for nationals cant showcase their vehicles as well...
suprise to see another event turn to a drama thread - people signing "out" want a closet to step "out" of too?? Im sure the organisers have covered all bases being targa is starting there etc

[lilpigzuk]

Its not a Fuking rallywoods trip or such that needs 15 pages before a confirmed start date is decided on......

[xj]

And yes, gymkhana type events at club level also have stop watches and it does become a bit competitive but nobody asks for helmets and all.

Yes they do (at least one anyway)

The "gymkhana type event" we had after the food run required helmets to be worn. And it will probably do next year too. Some didnt want too participate with helmets, they didnt attend, simple really.

And....... that was sorted between THREE clubs with no politics, bullshit, or drama.

[BrentC]

bugger that the guys heading to funganui for nationals cant showcase their vehicles as well...

Are you allowed to run Trial vehicles in Man Made tracks

[TJ]

Skid, I did read everything but seems you have missed my point and scenarios. No problem.

This is my last posting on this topic or any other on this Forum. I am not in favour of the safety hypocracy where we should wear helmets when we are in public view and not required to when we are on tracks where public can't see us. This is for similar situation we are likely to be exposed to similar "level" of risk as a driver. Do you think Targa guys do that? No.

So good luck to all who have posted here all their views and have no intention to even show up at the event. As for myself, I have other ways of remaining up to speed with the event and will definitely be there.

[Jerry]

my 2 cents....

Without looking at the course .... and reading thru all the previous pages of BS ..... I'm assuming that there will be a mud drag for the "comp trucks" and a seperate course for the others??? (similar to how the previous NZFWDA shows were run???)

I guess people are just concerned with making sure no one is injured whilst in the public view......if you use a bit of common sense then 99% of the comp truck guys already have helmets, harnesses and rollcages ... if they are doing the mud drags then I would make this a requirement.....

For the other course use normal club rules.....open top vehicles require rollover protection, if you have a helmet then its encouraged but not mandatory. if its a shinyish type course then seatbelts and roof etc should be fine....

[Jerry]

On another topic Mike has got an ORE Banner.....maybe we can set up a small ORE Stand or display (assuming there are some volunteers in Ak?)

[wgtnnewbie]

Skid, I did read everything but seems you have missed my point and scenarios. No problem.

This is my last posting on this topic or any other on this Forum. I am not in favour of the safety hypocracy where we should wear helmets when we are in public view and not required to when we are on tracks where public can't see us. This is for similar situation we are likely to be exposed to similar "level" of risk as a driver. Do you think Targa guys do that? No.

So good luck to all who have posted here all their views and have no intention to even show up at the event. As for myself, I have other ways of remaining up to speed with the event and will definitely be there.

i can understand your frustration about the hypocracy of it but thats seems to be the way the cookie crumbles especially as the general public really has no perception what 4wding is about.

I'm not sure what the Targa comment has to do with anything tho because that is a Motorsport NZ sanctioned event running at high speeds on closed roads and as such requires all the mandatory safety regulations to be complied with. At what stage outside of targa would the drivers be exposed to the same risks (unless of course they're illegally racing), not a dig just would like some clarification as to how they are similar????

as for the not going well the event is in auckland and i'm not, if i was in the area i'd go and would've had a go at the course.

and as for the posting of my views well i waited a while before i did and thought hard before i did. I didn't want to make wild accusations against anyone or their posts. the only reason i chose TJ's post was because it was the one that in my opinion got to the crux of the helmet debate. the asking of the how does it differ to a club trip is the best point asked and i answered it the best way i could think of.

steve out