Offroad-Express

thought i had three pages but only two on the pc

Hi mine are of the same sort of info I will scan them then you should be able to print and lamintate. Has extra info but mainly refur to weight of military vehicles, but lots of good other info like indirect pulls and bridal loading. how to calculate cable SWL etc. should be on by your tomorrow morn.

here are my two cards, top one was the newer of the two but I like the older one has a little bit more info on it. I hope you can read them( had alot of use.) If not and people want the info I might type them out again in excel and can email the file to anyone that wants them. The thing I think most people dont realise is how much extra load you are putting on cable/line when pulling at angles ie bridal or two leg chain or indirect pulls.
Anyway give me a email on milhouse87@hotmail.com if any one wants a format. When I get home could do some digging and find a shit load more information if anyone keen as well. Might find a few of the old pics of some of the big pulls I used to do.

Information like you have shown is a great reference but in reality once out in the bush ya just do what ya have too, snatching winching digging all manor of recovery methods. The information cards dont allow for worn gear or the fact that often there is no recovery point to use and so on and so on.
Back to the original debate (even though it seems commen sense has prevailed) if you have a recovery hook rated to 12000lb then for that hook to do its job the mounting needs to sufficient to carry that weight and more and not being an engineer I would have thought that it would need to be 1.5x stronger at least. thus requiring it to have a rating of around 18000lb or 9000kg+- for us young bucks. You achieve that on your on the money

yes some of the info is not applicable but still a handy read and people did ask for them.

As I said in earlier posts, I am sure after I bolt on the hooks the bumper that I have made will be more than adequate to take = to or more than the hook(mine 10000lb) what I am more worried about is what the bumper is connected to, it slides and bolts into what could be called a chassis rail. However on the niva this is just a triple folded bit of 1.5mm panel steel that is welded to the body(integral chassis), the niva is so light because it is like a mini where all the strength is in the body panels.



This vid below is what happens when some poor guy got a Snatch from a bigger 4x4 with a happy foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfPZqShg ... ed&search=

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PfPZqShgo-4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

they had just gone around one side of the bumper , I think mine will be stronger as I have gone deep as possible into chassis and put a cross brace in which will share the load to both sides. I am also thinking of making a amsteel blue bridal which will share the load to both sides again.

But Still this is a good case of why having some Idea of what the pull will be and making it as small a load as possible is a good Idea for me. just snatching and hoping hurts to much and almost impossible to calculate the loads that will be in force, winching and towing are easily calculated.

I couldn't agree more about the over use of snatching! I always carry a snatch strap but mine is still in the plastic bag it came in and cable tied to the rollcage. I can setup and winch out in virtually the same time as seting up a snatch. Yes I compete in winch challenges but if you have the winch ready to go then hooking it up doesn't take much time and then the recovery is completely under control.
I HATE snatching due to the unknown forces. It is the first thing that NOOB does and normally with little understanding of how dangerous it is.
The biggest problem is normally people are in too much of a hurry. It is often quicker to stop, walk around the truck a couple of times, make a plan and then winch isn't funny.
The new truck I'm building won't even have a free spool on the winch (but it will be quite fast) so it means my coey will have time to think while running the rope out. Picking a good anchor point with the right angle horizontally AND vertically can make a massive difference to the recovery.
In competitions I've even take the spare wheel off and used it to fill a hole in and driven over it. That meant it was driven instead of winching.

that is exactly what we got taught on the commanders course , get the boys busy with a bit of spade work while you stand back and come up with a plan then you can set it up properly first time and be ahead on digging.

worked everytime for me

I like the idea of winch challenge sounds like a s load of fun, might have to get into it as a coey ( I am guessing this is co driver slang) to get a bit of time up.

Nivapulledout wrote:I like the idea of winch challenge sounds like a s load of fun, might have to get into it as a coey ( I am guessing this is co driver slang) to get a bit of time up.

That just proves you're not very bright Anyone with half an idea would always want to be in the drivers seat .
To be a coey you need to be fit and a sucker for punishment. You also need to acknowledge that drivers are smarter, better looking and generally much nicer guys.

But seriously. What you need to do is get a team together and enter a club class event to get some experience. All you need is a truck with a winch, a 4 point roll bar and be members of a NZFWDA club. Next event isn't till next year now (winter sport).

Don't listen to Darinz, just get a decent driver then you won't need to get out

I like the sound of club class, need to join a club when I get back to NZ permanently and then will get into doing it.

NJV6 wrote:Don't listen to Darinz, just get a decent driver then you won't need to get out

I think that someone maybe making a coment about my driving ability! But at least i know what brand of truck I drive

Thanks, guys, THAT has GOT to be one of the most informative and interesting things I have read on this forum.

Freely admitting that I am a noob and rank beginner!!

Thanks again.

Glad people are getting use from this thread, I will start it up again when I am doing the mk II version. and post pics

cant wait to get back.

dazza85 wrote:

turoa wrote:To be honest, if you asked me for a tow, i would probably reject your request. I have been told that the general rule of thumb is that 1" of weld will hold 1 ton. A tow hook is what? 2" long. This means that there is only 4 tons worth of strength holding that hook on. A decent snatch will put more than 4tons of strain on it.

Also it will put alot of leverage on those bottom welds of that box. Nice welds though.

I'm with him ... the whole leverage thing because of the spacer alone would make me me think twice ...
The things to consider are how is the hook mounted - bolts welds etc and what is it mounted to
there are a couple of pics on here somewhere that show welds that have let go - the hook was bolted onto a small plate that was welded onto something else

Since I am not a fan of open hooks since one peeled the bonnet of my 80 open several years ago during a simpla snatch out I would have to leave you stuck. 1600 kg in thick mud is over 4000kg of pull to extract.

geckoadventure wrote:Since I am not a fan of open hooks since one peeled the bonnet of my 80 open several years ago during a simpla snatch out I would have to leave you stuck. 1600 kg in thick mud is over 4000kg of pull to extract.

And that is the problem, people always underestimate the forces involved when snatching and this is why things get broken. Snatching is an advanced recovery technique and yet it is the first thing a noob does! A winch is so much safer and more controlled and yet people are scared of them?

And that is the problem, people always underestimate the forces involved when snatching and this is why things get broken. Snatching is an advanced recovery technique and yet it is the first thing a noob does! A winch is so much safer and more controlled and yet people are scared of them?[/quote]

I have to agree, I'm fairly new to 4x4 & in the 18 months I've been doing it I've seen or had more dramas with snatching than winching. Broken & straightened hooks, broken snatch straps damaging trucks, & a very near miss many years ago which put me off for a long time . We all seem to use dampers when winching but usually not when snatching????

I also am a noob at this sport, but I am extremely lucky inasmuch as I am "in" with a bunch of guys who are very expert. When I started, 4wheeling, I was driving with a group from the Waikato, and I learnt heaps off them, stood me in good stead, rescuing #1 son from the top of sand dunes.... learnt to put a damper, even a jacket will work, on strops straps and winch ropes very quickly.

Thanks, fellers, your teachings have actually sunk in... as has the techniques of actually driving the twuck.

B.

Covnenience may be another reason. Much easier to hook a strop on than run out a winch cable, so people assume the recovery will be quick and simple

geckoadventure wrote:

dazza85 wrote:

turoa wrote:To be honest, if you asked me for a tow, i would probably reject your request. I have been told that the general rule of thumb is that 1" of weld will hold 1 ton. A tow hook is what? 2" long. This means that there is only 4 tons worth of strength holding that hook on. A decent snatch will put more than 4tons of strain on it.

Also it will put alot of leverage on those bottom welds of that box. Nice welds though.

I'm with him ... the whole leverage thing because of the spacer alone would make me me think twice ...
The things to consider are how is the hook mounted - bolts welds etc and what is it mounted to
there are a couple of pics on here somewhere that show welds that have let go - the hook was bolted onto a small plate that was welded onto something else

Since I am not a fan of open hooks since one peeled the bonnet of my 80 open several years ago during a simpla snatch out I would have to leave you stuck. 1600 kg in thick mud is over 4000kg of pull to extract.

As a rule of thumb I would not be snatching a NIVA same as I do not snatch any monocoque vehicle only winch. Recently I pulled a bullbar of a XJ JEEP haha his fault his winch died and my REDs truck WINCH is a bit powerful.

I would also not be winching or snatching this truck. 1 its welded the hook to the tube and hence has too much leverage. 2. its a open hook. I prefer closed hook/shackle after having a OPEN (note poor quality also) hook break once on a snatch and having the bonnet of my 80 opened up like a tin can with a broken hook flying back of a very long snatch strap and yes we did not have a dampner. The hook hit the rubber on the window and saved both our lives as it flew 40+feet into the air and landed behind the 80 with the snatch strap leaving marks all over the window and bonnet and wrapped around the ariel mount wihoch also saved both of us.


A winch is more able to be controlled than a snatch.

after reading all this thread ( and seeing it has pretty much been covered well )

i thought id add just a wee story ..

i ( as some will know ) have a swb 70 cruiser .. and was stuck in rallywoods ( on the diffs but not major just no locker etc )

had made a nice new bar up for the front with the same hooks as you have purchased and welded ( if not already bolted etc )

i had bolted the hook through the channel section bar .. and also welded the edge to be extra safe ...

then what more i had upgraded the bolts ( 6 in total ) that hold the bumper i made on ... and also welded the plates that the bolts went through onto the chassis ....

so . along to save my newb butt came mudnutz in his commie powered hilux and snatched me out ( not a huge snatch )
with a huuuuge BANG! i thought my new snatch strap had broken ...
Only to see a nice new shiney flat channel section bullbar flying through the air towards his truck !!

it basically sheared all the bolts clean off and the welds . for what reason i have absolutely no clue! and was astonished that it could even happen with that much ( what i thought ) strength

so basically what im trying to say is you could and would be surprised to see and hear what can actually break under what i would have thought to be not alot of strain !

rules and reg's normally come about from things happinging in the first place and to keep both the " stuck " and the " unstuck " nice and safe so we can all go home and plan the next trip ...

btw its not a nice feeling thinking to yourself afterwards that ( in my case ) bumper could have smashed that truck to bits or even worse killed or injured someone

anyhow enough of my rant lol

A vehicle that is stuck can require a huge amount of energy to extract it.
For example:
A vehicle in mud, to the chassis rails, requires a force of 3 x vehicle mass to move it. On a Suzuki Vitara (approx 1250kg loaded) this means a tow hook can have a force of 3.75 tonnes on it during snatch recovery.
An 80 series Toyota Landcruiser (approx 2500kg loaded) could have a hook loading of up to 7.5 tonnes. Most recovery straps are rated at 8000kg – kinetic ropes can be rated to 12,000kg or higher.
A snatch recovery involves the recovery vehicle accelerating until all slack is taken out of the recovery strap and then stretching the strap. As the strap stretches, energy is stored in the strap. When the recovery vehicle reaches the limit of stretch in the strap, the energy is transferred to the 'stuck' vehicle, hopefully extracting it.
If neither vehicle moves, and instead the tow hook comes off (or breaks) that energy (7.5 tonnes worth) which was stored in the strop now propels the tow hook at high speed.
It has been calculated that a tow hook coming off (or breaking) during a hard recovery will move at approximately 500km/h. This will go through the panel steel of a vehicle (and any soft items – like human bodies) easily.
That is why we have these safety specifications!

CCVC-SAFETY-0001 Introduction to snatch recoveries 050803.doc Page 1 of 1
First issued: 23 April 2005, Updated 20 June 2005
© Copyright Cross Country Vehicle Club Wellington Inc.

Hay all,
good to see this thread is still going, I am now back in country and am in the middle of putting in a pugeot 1.9 turbo diesel, however I will be redoing these hooks before I it back on the road again and even put in the order for the crush tube and 150mm long m10 grade 8 bolts.
I will not be snatching or be snatched off the hooks as that is why I fitted the winch. snatching is lazy mans recovery and up there with one of the most dangerous things you will do when 4x4 and people dont realise that.
will post pics of the revised hooks. but in the meantime here is my build thread for my planned jobs.

http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?p=500381#500381

anyone in TA is more than welcome to come around and put in there 5c worth over a brown bit of nectar

Nivapulledout If you are in a bad situation you can always use a bridle on recovery and share the weight across both hooks.

I personally have eyes and shackles as opposed to hooks as recommended by the scrutineer of the Land Rover Club. Eyes on each side are plated well back along the chassis and have 4 x 13mm m8.8 bolts each.

hey there,

i would reject a request from you to pull you out as i have come accross this before it wasent welding the hook on but the guy i was pulling out bought a hook second hand and didnt have high tensile bolts so he just went and got some out of the back shed and bolted it up and when i tried to pull him out the bolts broke and the hook whent flying through the back window between two people in the back seat and between me and the girl in the passengers seat and through the windscreen lets just say we were bloody lucky to not have anyone hurt trust me if you try cut corners with recovery gear it will cost you in the long run i just hope if any one does this they dont loose a life!!!


STAY SAFE!