Offroad-Express

This is the thing, certs are a very grey area...

wjw wrote:This is the thing, certs are a very grey area...

Yeah, I had my old Bighorn certed, only to have my local testing staion refuse to give it a warrant.
In the end the LTSA sent an inspector down, who said the certifier should never have passed the vehicle, so the cert plate was worthless.

Of course the certifier did all he could to squirm his way out of it
In the end I'm told he got a kick up the a#se for passing the vehicle, which I hope he did. If I had had an accident in the wagon, I would never have been insured

wjw wrote:

H2OLOVA wrote:

niblik wrote:what if the guys not 'certed' for normal steel but a 'certed' welder for stainless work? and does weldin for a job? would that be goodly for the certifier?

Sounds like Nibbys taking his truck away? and taking it to a certed stainless welder since I'm not certed for anything!!! its mainly chassis welding that he'll be interested in, so we may have issues. I might have to hang up my welding mask

I should have been certed for some of the structural welding I was doing in Wanaka but the engineer said my welding was better than the other guys (who'd been doing it for 15 years) so it didnt really matter. The key is that if its inspected it needs to stand up to scrutiny and if you dont have a piece of paper saying a cert'd welder did it, you may have to get it redone, get the guy that did it, to create a sample so it can be x-rayed etc etc.

Its more trouble than its worth not to have it done properly in the first place.

Talking to my neighbour (a certified welder) he echo's what is said here, you dont have to be certified, any (competent!!) certifier will know what he's looking for in terms of structual welding, and at the risk of sounding a bit brown-nosing... there's nothing wrong with your welding H2O. The punishment some of your welding has taken proves that it's well up to the task!! A good certifier will know just by looking at it if it has good weld-penetration, and if it is structually sound in terms of design. The neighbour said that they only look really hard if you've made major structual changes or replacement of structual components, which I dont think Nibby's truck will come into.

WHILE ON THE TOPIC IF CERTIFICATION, DOES ANY ONE KNOW HOW HIGH YOU CAN LIFT A TRUCK UNTIL YOU NEED A CERT IF YOU NEED ONE.

The old welding game is certainly a grey area alright,even to the naked eye most penetration cannot be seen.Most guys and gals that can pull the trigger on a mig or hold a stick steady can produce a good looking weld,and these welds in most cases would hold any a frame or drawbeam on a vehicle together,the standards set out in the 4711 welding certification are up to standards of the erection and construction of large buildings and other structures of those sorts.

So it kinda gets up your ass when they start picking on superficial welds!!

kaney wrote:WHILE ON THE TOPIC IF CERTIFICATION, DOES ANY ONE KNOW HOW HIGH YOU CAN LIFT A TRUCK UNTIL YOU NEED A CERT IF YOU NEED ONE.

Ask the guy you got the kit off ... also I'd call a certifier, the guy in Rangiora is supposidly the best one round here...

I was talking to DJ about this and I have to agree with his take on it .... the guy either didn't want my buisiness or dosn't know what the regs are for what I asked and he pulled that welding cert number becouse it was easy to remeber I've read most of the online regs and I can't remember seeing 4711 anywhere.... mind you there's enough legalise to give most normal people a headache

Like I say pays to shop around

dixie I disagree with you on the thickness of steel that most auto work is done you can tell by looking at the root and sides of the weld if it was too cold (dome'ing up, no penitration) nice and level or to hot (undercut, possible strength issues) its how I know what setting's to run.... Now if we were talking structural like 4711... got a feeling it could be structural pipe, then your on the mark
just thought of something you might have a point the first certifier mightn't be a very good welder and not know what to look for and using the cert as an easy out

Cheers Reece

dixie I disagree with you on the thickness of steel that most auto work is done you can tell by looking at the root and sides of the weld if it was too cold (dome'ing up, no penitration) nice and level or to hot (undercut, possible strength issues) its how I know what setting's to run.... Now if we were talking structural like 4711... got a feeling it could be structural pipe, then your on the mark
just thought of something you might have a point the first certifier mightn't be a very good welder and not know what to look for and using the cert as an easy out

Hey there D-R,totally agree with you on the thicknesses scenario,but in my experience in this field and as a currently 4711 ticketed welder most certifiers get the shits going anywhere near any mods around the structural areas of alteration,and most are'nt too concerned with gusseting or plating on factory areas providing most of the welding done looks good and in there eyes the welder seems to have been competent.
Nine out of ten car mod certifiers wouldnt know what to look for in a weld such as undercut,perosity or to determine if it went on too cold or hot or was it laid on vertical,downhand or overhead.

I know I certainly wouldnt be wanting to hand out certs"willy nelly" with the amount of comeback there is out there know placing you the certifier in the lineup for full brunt of manslaughter charges if there were to be a fatality involved(extreme side)but as a minimum requirement all required on there behalf is a simple crack test carried out with some white and red specialised paint to at the least determine there is no floor in the apparent weld.

what a can of worms
first, I had a fair bit of input many years ago on what the low volume vehical conctruction regs should have implied or are as written. Although I was asked to be a certifier I opted out to be a constructor instead, as, its not correct for a constructer to have his own work certified by himself. And I could see dicussions like this happening each day = hi stress.= poor health= short life
no where does it mention 4711 ticketed welder. this ticket is mainly for structural of buildings and has no place in automotive construction ( unless you are building a very large garage) but people like to quote this number as its easly remenbered and to the uneducated sounds impressive ( sorry dixie ) dont get me wrong it has its place just not here.
ceritifiers should be looking at the integrity of the vechicals modifications overall ie will the brakes handle the stresses is the suspension going to fail,handling, etc etc above all, safety. welding done by a 'compatant welder' exsect steering componants have to be inspected ( X ray)
I rember what a tutor told me sometime ago "If the weld looks like shit then it is" and dont grind them down to improve them !!!
If anyone is interested I can dig up a construction manual and quote from that, as this is from memory but I'm sure someone will correct me above all, talk to your local cert man FIRST before carrying any mods
cheers DJ
NZCE ( mech) and dam nice guy

Hey DJ remember how you said you could dig out the books and qoute from them I want ya to

hey decided to go linkage and coils for the rear it was just a mater of time so why not save some time and nail it at the start

Cheers Reece

Hey DJ remember how you said you could dig out the books and qoute from them I want ya to

did I say that ... shit .. ok then .. not tonite thou.... just which parts are u interested in ? welding ? structurial or steering ?
And I was wundering if linkages would be a better option , certinally easier to roadside repair if need be.
hey had a good yarn with you but what a slow trip back and it snowed

what a can of worms
first, I had a fair bit of input many years ago on what the low volume vehical conctruction regs should have implied or are as written. Although I was asked to be a certifier I opted out to be a constructor instead, as, its not correct for a constructer to have his own work certified by himself. And I could see dicussions like this happening each day = hi stress.= poor health= short life
no where does it mention 4711 ticketed welder. this ticket is mainly for structural of buildings and has no place in automotive construction ( unless you are building a very large garage) but people like to quote this number as its easly remenbered and to the uneducated sounds impressive ( sorry dixie ) dont get me wrong it has its place just not here.

Hey there DJ, you certainly made the right move not becoming a certifier you probably did extend your life by lowering the stress levels.(ha ha)
you may have got me wrong,or ive placed my words incorrectly

the standards set out in the 4711 welding certification are up to standards of the erection and construction of large buildings and other structures of those sorts.

So it kinda gets up your ass when they start picking on superficial welds!!

When i said in my experience,the industry of hire to the general joe public we get this 4711 standard thrown in our face all the time by certifiers wether it be modifying vehicles or changing roll cages,rops,cops,fops,tops or fabricating a new drawbeam or axle for a trailer,or repairing chassis rails in ewp's or refabricating engine mounts.Gets quite annoying when this is the standard they expect!!

So all im saying is,I can appreciate where guys get there handy work turned down under the 4711 regs when this is a standard designed for heavy construction.But can also appreciate them throwing it at us when they could be liable for legal consequences(hope that makes sense).

Im certainly not up on all mod cert regs,just going by what gets put on us when we are out there doing mods.

I would be pretty interested in knowing the rules and regs myself.Cheers

Would certainly be good to be able to show the certifier what the rules actually are. So, DJ, if it is possible to find that info we could keep it in here somewhere

Its mostly all here

Pandora's Box of Secrets

Go on, you know you want to, knowledge, exactily what we are allowed to do, its all there.... the rules the certifiers use

I leave you this one warning unless you have ALOT of time the ability to interprate legalese, you will waste alot of time and be left wondering if you've got it right .... yes you will find gems hidden away in there have a look at suspension section 4.1 it might surprise you but you've got to waste alot of time to find em

Oh and there is a condition with every thing good you find

As you start really pushing things into the fun zone you will hit this little beutty...."design and construction requirements specified in the applicable section of the Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association Incorporated Member Association Technical Manual.", this is what grates on me they have there own little rule book that we can't get access to and the rules in it supercede the ones we have access to.... any time they don't like it and its allowed in the normal rules they just have to pull out this and we're stuffed, I only pay the normal rules cursery service and ring up and ask

Oh and if you can find a good resumble certifier look after em they have a bastard job and they are the meat in the sandwich my beef isn't with the guys implementing it alltho some of them could do with a bit of "re-training" like the guy who told me I reguired 4711
Its the system that sucks it needs to be written in plain english with easily found limits and conditions, so the people who are dealling with it can understand it.... simple!! no hidden rules, no abiguity, no personal agenders, no bs

Cheers Reece

De-Ranged wrote:As you start really pushing things into the fun zone you will hit this little beutty...."design and construction requirements specified in the applicable section of the Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association Incorporated Member Association Technical Manual.", this is what grates on me they have there own little rule book that we can't get access to and the rules in it supercede the ones we have access to.... any time they don't like it and its allowed in the normal rules they just have to pull out this and we're stuffed, I only pay the normal rules cursery service and ring up and ask

Just like women then? You think you know the rules, but they are just teasing you to make you do something they can tell you off for

De-Ranged wrote:Oh and if you can find a good resumble certifier look after em

Best advice ever

Oh, and as far as I am aware, you need 4711 to weld chassis' on COMMERCIAL vehicles (or it might just be heavy transport)... Look at all the mods I have done on the vehicles I have worked on... I do not have 4711 (although I've done most of the course, just ran out of time to finish it) but my certifier is more than happy with the work I do. (And more importantly *I'm* happy with it )

Steve

you need 4711 to weld chassis' on COMMERCIAL vehicles (or it might just be heavy transport)...

I was under the impression that a LT 400 ticketed welder was approved to carry out heavy transport repairs ( COF requirements ) on structrail important stress points. Other than those areas any old rod burner could do the trick.
code of construction manual
part 3 Chassis
Modified stock chassis
3.1 all structural alterations to original type chassis should be first be approved by NZHRA TAC ( techical advisory committee) before work commences.
3.2 all structural welding must be preformed by a NZHRA- Approved engineer with written verification provided.

dont shoot me Im only quoting from the code of construction Manual. Certifiers/ tech inspectors can and do intrept in many different ways to allow for the kiwi past time of "Lets find a loop hole in the laws"

I've read the modifications guide thing and the WOF book... best bet is to ask a friendly certifier. I replaced my side rear windows with steel and that still gets questioned at WOF time, even though your allowed 100% tint. gray grey and more gray

I'll ask the neighbour what he's got, I know he does have 4711, but he's got a literal stack of numbers. I do know that (as strange as it sounds) that although he cant cert his work, his work is deemed to be roadworthy by virtue of the fact that he did it..... ie, he just takes it to some guy and fills out some form, then that guy "certs" it......

He has also built a door-slammer for the 1/4 mile, and he had the NZHRA come round to give it a "race cert" (dont know if thats a tech term).

I'll get back......

(as strange as it sounds) that although he cant cert his work, his work is deemed to be roadworthy by virtue of the fact that he did it..... ie, he just takes it to some guy and fills out some form, then that guy "certs" it......

yep hes problerly been approved or the tech is happy to stand by his work and this is what happens when I get my own work certified.