Offroad-Express

In support of the manukau Club - I have been a member of this Club for several years and have been on committees and helped with marshalling, etc at these national events always happy to assist wherever needed. BUT I am sick to death of hearing about the bitching and back stabbing that seems to go on from theses types of events. Its a cheap shot to have a go at the very people who have spent hours, days, and months (not to mention copius amounts of money) organizing these so you ungrateful bstards can have your moments of glory - or in the case of the inept drivers (and vehicles) among you - a vehicle wrecking exercise. As they say, a bad tradesman always blames his tools. Maybe you moaning sods should all take a good look in the mirror for a reality check! These people dont even compete in National rallies, and looking at the forum today, I would be very surprised if they would bother doing it again...... then where would that leave you all.......licking your wounds i suspect. The Rally trucks are not "Gods gift to 4x4ing". If you think you can do a better job GOOD LUCK!
To all those polite rally drivers and support crew the other day, thank you for acknowleding the marshalls and helpers, it is people like you who encourage volunteers like us to give up our precious weekends to support you.

Here, here! As a member of Manukua 4WD club who contributed time & effort to this event, it saddens me to see a few vocal people bring down an event which I think ran very well. Yes, there were a few problems, but they were insignificant compared to the effort and organisation that went into making this event happen at all. A big round of applause to all those who put this together, who contributed their time; to the sponsors who paid for it; for the competitors who took part in it with a good grace and attitude. To the moaners.. Sod off.
As one of the competitors said to me later, after a huge roll which damaged his truck severely, "I drove it wrong..."
If you don't like the competition, don't enter. If it's too hard, go home...
The course was hard. It's a Nationals trial. The ground was hard. It's summer... This was the only time this event could have been run by our club, due to other commitments. If you want something soft to land on when you screw up, bring your own bubble wrap. Harden up people.
I am disapointed that any hazards were pulled AFTER people had completed them, in my opinion that is wrong, but I don't make the rules...
The fact that anyone managed to zero some of the hazards amazes me, but that shows that they were NOT too hard.
The marshalls did a huge job, not made any easier by the drivers themselves. Yes, you get to walk the course, but when a competitor is lined up and ready to go, GET OUT OF THE WAY. You'd bitch if they made you wait for them... Maybe some of the marshells were a bit grumpy because they get tired of repating themselves.. Give them a break. It's a long day standing in the hot sun. Be nice, say thanks.. They might not be there next time.
After posting here in the public forum, maybe the sponsers won't be either. What a slap in the face for them! It's hard enough to get people to part with money without this sort of bickering going on after the event.
I hope the people who took part and enjoyed the day post their opinions. If no-one was having fun, why are we doing it?

any positives from the weekend? rally drivers?

BrentC,
You will notice that in my earlier post I neither Moaned about how dangerous the hazards were or complained about the marshals’. I had no problems with either. In fact I always try to ask each marshall how there day has been, thank them after getting my score and wish them a good day when I leave. I also placed my name at the end of the post.

My statement re my high points as opposed to Whakatane shows how much harder the hazards were to score points on, that does not imply that I considered them dangerous. I fully agree drive to your abilities and or drive clever and attempt to finish the day without dropping to many points.

My comments were intended as constructive criticism and I also mentioned that I am happy to discuss them with anyone.

On one hazard when asked by a marshall what I thought about the hazards I actually made the same comments to him as I made in my earlier post about them.

I do have to feel a little sorry for the Manukau Club, I appreciate that although you have hosted rallies in the past they have always been contracted out to Russell, and i think that there was probably a bit more help or knowledge that could have been given to the the people who organized this rally if they had only known who or what to ask. It is a learning curve.

I have been involved with the last 2 nationals that the Whangarei Club have hosted (the last one I was Chief marshall) and I will be involved with the next one as well, We have a farmer who was only to happy to have us use a bit of his farm for the last 2 rallies at no cost to us, although we do make a donation to a charity, in his name. The last rally that we hosted after all sponserhip had been received all bills paid, prizes etc we netted over $8000.00. Yes there was a small group of us who went out and pegged hazards, others who obtained sponsership etc, and some people who spend a lot of hours with not alot of thanks for there efforts

As to competitors who abuse Marshalls' I go back to my earlier comments they are giving up there time so we can compete, without them we cant if any driver is having a crap day and I hear him taking it out on a marshall I am likley to be in his face.

Again I am more than happy to discuss my personal opinions with anyobe at all

Dan Barnett (DrPC)

Dr_PC wrote:I do have to feel a little sorry for the Manukau Club, I appreciate that although you have hosted rallies in the past they have always been contracted out to Russell, and i think that there was probably a bit more help or knowledge that could have been given to the the people who organized this rally if they had only known who or what to ask. It is a learning curve.

That is ok Dan - I haven't taken anything written here personally - it is a learning thing

However - nearly everything we did was in line with advise given by just retired and current Drivers - maybe it is time for the Drivers Committee and drivers to get more actively involved in organising these events - particuarly the Prize Giving - because your and other drivers writing here expectations are way beyond what we were lead to believe was needed. But then - no one from the competing drivers or drivers committee came up and discussed what was going to happen - so you got what we believed was required perplexing isn't it.

Regarding finances - I think we won't be a quarter of what you netted - which will go to charity anyway - that includes the Land Owners fee (Child Cancer - from memory)

In my earlier post I said it seemed dangerous with all the roll overs but if the competitors are happy with that its fine by me it makes for a good days viewing, just looks scary to my.
As for the marshals I was at the breifing and there were more than were needed. I compete in winch challenges and we can never seem to find enough. They give up there time to a sport they like and only see a small part of the day. And get crap from the competitors, imagin if other competitors were doing it as well as competing

With any sport you have to take the good with the bad, and the ref is usualy first in line to take the blame

Was keeping my nose out of it since I agree too some points raised on each "side"......... but too answer you Bernie

bernie wrote:any positives from the weekend? rally drivers?

yep, spoken to a few other drivers who dont come on here, (guys who do the laurie sanson from other clubs) said it was hard, but still a good day.
Marshalled in the arvo, and pretty much each driver that walked the hazard I was on did the ole "gidday, how are ya"
Im still keen too give it a crack in a season or two, couple of hazards not my cup of tea, but majority I would give a go, seen worse/better in our interclub trials and judging by photos posted here of other zone fun trials there are some testing hazards even at interclub level and you chose too try them or not

Dont know how many other people will post replies here, but from whats been said by both organisers (huge well done , as you said you would do things differently next time - which I doubt there will be which is completely fair enough) and competitors (sorry some of you werent impressed with a lot of things, Some points I agree with some I dont ), but I would like too think this thread has done its thing. Im sure each side could continue bitching till the next round then talk about how much better/worse that one was run, but in the interest of trialling (which is great too see competitors on here now) and the bigger picture of 4wdin in NZ I think we have bigger issues then fighting amongst ourselves

Hope that doesnt sound to chessey (however its meant too be spelt ) but that is thy thoughts... take it or leave it

Hi all, I just signed up to this forum so I could place a comment. I was marshalling all day at the nationals, and as a club member I felt it was my duty. I took along my Son, who co drives for me in club rallies, and a good friend of mine. We were on hazard 30, the man made one, in the afternoon. At the time I was a bit disappointed at the few bad comments said about the "man made hazard" but was even more disappointed at the end of the day to find out that our whole afternoon was wasted when the hazard was pulled.
To be fair I now know that your rules are no "man made hazards" but couldn't the competors who had issues with this hazard have addressed them at Lunch time, its not like it was hidden from view, and then I could have had a different hazard to marshall or an afternoon off to watch a great sport.
The actual hazard itself got 4 zero's, 3 from highly modified trucks as you would expect and 1 from a truck you wouldn't expect from looks, sorry Steve, it was just good driving. The hazard was not un safe just unnerving and 2 "A" class trucks got the second best scores(40) from accepting their capabilities and driving to them.
In terms of roll overs I think it would have been more than 15 for we had 6 on our hazard 30, or maybe they don't count now, and 4 on the flat part of our morning hazard.Hazard 1 the speed section. Nothing to do with pegs just DRIVERS.
In terms of Man Made hazards, be carefull, soon you will not be able to use farm tracks as part of a hazard or a planted tree or what happens when the greenies say all natural water ways are out of pounds we wont need mud tires.

Cheers to all who attended on Sunday, helpers, competitors and spectators, it's still a great fun sport to most.

Shayne Holloway

To top off things I have just been informed that stage 31 was also puled, considering there were quite a few people who zeroed my stage and not all of them were in big V8's its a wee bit of a joke.

There were some mixed results and although lots of shoe put on a spectacular show for the audiance the fact remains that slow and steady also made it and got a 0.

I would like to thank the guy who was driving the Speights wagon as he opend my eyes to this fact then he put a zero in on the same tracks that others were having a real hard time with and im sure he was only idling around the course

Anyway after reading a few of the comments that have been placed it really does appear that its only a couple of bad eggs that seem to be spoiling it for the rest and this is a shame.

Its also a shame that this thread has become so explosive as im sure several of the sponsors have read it and this is likley to have an impact on future sponsorship of your events. It may be an idea for the drivers and the association to get together and have a meeting about this because it cant go on festering as it is.

But then thats just my opinion and i drive a shiney so what would i know

Borg
bulshit you drive a shinny, i seen it and that anit had a coat of shine since you;ve had it.[/quote]

In my original post I pointed out a few problems that I encountered during the rally. This does not mean that the whole rally was a shambles & people should be shot.
I was merely pointing out areas of personal concern that could be addressed.
I made sure that I pointed out that at no time did I have any trouble with the marshals, & I would like to praise their efforts - it was appreciated as as we all know the rallies don't happen without them. So to Borg, 4x4wntab, TJ et al thanks heaps.
At no point in my post did I get personal - unlike some of the replies.
Some of the posters may think that this was our only rally & have no point of reference - this is not so. This is our 3rd season competeing. My points were made in comparison to those rallies.
No comments would have been made at all if I hadn't read this

Anyone elses thoughts .

To those that have been offended - get over it - the criticism was meant to be constructive.

I am dissapointed with the competitors that are moaning about the marshalls, i marshelled hazard 15 in the morning and 30 in the afternoon. I received a cheerful approach from DR_PC all day and the only other real THANK YOU i got was in the morning when we had the big roll over on 15 when the coey actually thanked me for making him check his harness before i let them go. i checked every harness when a truck got to the blue pegs and if i didnt think it was tight enough i got them to tighten it. I got more grumbles about checking the harnesses of the competitors than positive replys and i find that pretty sad.

I would have loved to actually watch some of the day but worked morning and afternoon.

i agree that some of the hazards looked abit nasty (and coming from someone that will try anything possible in his shiney) but people got zeros, and others new what points they were aiming for on a hazard before they started it, plus the ones that new it was time to pull out before they rolled over.

all i can say from here is when you are at a trials comp and you are wearing your club t-shirt be nice to the marshals, protest to the right people instead of grumping out loud. as me personally i now have a bad opinion about that club due to its members attitude.

Bernie i had a great day and if our club were to host another one i would once again give up my time and come and marshall another event.

Im proud to be a member of the MAnukau 4wd club. and they sticker on my truck is normally the cleanest part because i like showing who im with.

for us volunteers i feel on the day we done the best we could so give us a break guys & gals.

to the drivers and coeys that we nice and chatted to me thanks heaps and i hope to be a marshal for you again.

Krysten.

I have sat back and watched with great interest, the heated debate that I have caused. I am sorry if I pissed off the majority of the host club members for my comments. I should have been more adventurous in my words and only mentioned that it was more the main person running the day that i was apportioning the majority of the blame.
as a competitor, I noticed that the marshalls seemed to be lacking direction and to be honest it was only on a couple of hazards, where I believe that the clerk of course should have had more input into the running of those particular hazards.
some of you have commented that I mustn't know how to organise a trial. you couldn't be farther from the truth as I have been on the organising committee of only 3 people who have successfully run 3 trials in the past 7 years. which have been very profitable for the club. I read you payed $3000 for land access, which in my mind is way too much and I personally would not of run a trial if that was the case.
others have commented about the man made hazards and the person who protested them, (wait for it) IT WAS ME !!
having been a NZFWDA steward for the past 3 seasons I know a thing or two about trialing and I stick by my comments about the course being dangerous and failed rollcages being allowed to continue. you are probably unaware, but the stewards were actually protested against for thier decision to let those competitors continue, so I am not the only competitor who felt the same way.
I also understand that the person(s) who decided the hazards, put in 31 hazards because they knew that 1 of them would get protested out.

Having run trials before, I know that there are only 3 - 5 people that have a main say in what goes on and the rest of the club do what they are told and put pegs where they are told wether they like it or not.

so again I am sorry that most of you have taken it so personally.

as I stated before these are my personal views.

skid wrote: IT WAS ME !!.

Well good on you - that would have been one kangaroo court I would have loved to have attended.

Skid, if you are indeed as knowlegable as you say, and have had as much to do with the organisation of these events as you claim (and I have no reason to doubt you), why wait till the end of the day to get the two man made hazards pulled? What a waste of time for both the organisers & marshells, and you & your fellow competitors..
Surely it would have been logical, and possible, to sort that out before the comp started?
Am I missing something?

HeyZuse wrote:Am I missing something?

Yes, logic. It would have been too logical and rational to raise an issue at the time. Doing it afterwards allows the benefit of hindsight!

skid wrote: I read you payed $3000 for land access, which in my mind is way too much and I personally would not of run a trial if that was the case.

You obviously don't live in Auckland. I'm sure we'd all like free access to vast amounts of good 4x4 country on our back door step, but up here, it costs....

HeyZuse wrote:The course was hard. It's a Nationals trial. The ground was hard. It's summer... This was the only time this event could have been run by our club, due to other commitments. If you want something soft to land on when you screw up, bring your own bubble wrap. Harden up people.

Spot on, did ya really want a shiney course?

bernie wrote:any positives from the weekend? rally drivers?

As a first time spectator at a national event I loved it, and a young fella from work who's just getting into 4WDing was pretty amped on monday too, and is real keen on getting into it properly now too.

DEATH_INC wrote:

HeyZuse wrote:The course was hard. It's a Nationals trial. The ground was hard. It's summer... This was the only time this event could have been run by our club, due to other commitments. If you want something soft to land on when you screw up, bring your own bubble wrap. Harden up people.

Spot on, did ya really want a shiney course?

NO - but this is typical of the responses to the crtitism of the course. What we want are SAFE hazards where stray sharp object will not KILL/MAIM us. Why do you think that the rules of the comp state that alkathene pipes are used on the downhill side of sidelings??? So that solid wooden pegs don't come thru the cage & into the competitors - isn't it fair to assume that sharp branches should be also taken off logs dowhill from sidelings??? or am I just too much of a f'n softie!!!!!!!!!!!!
And as for the talk of the number of hours the organisers put in .... well duh ..... how many hours work do you think the competitors put into the building of their trucks to get them there!!!!!! Remember that without competitors there wouldn't be a competition either - and then where would the sponsers put their stickers.
As I said before there were some good things about the rally ....... but don't gloss over the poor bits.

Furgus wrote:isn't it fair to assume that sharp branches should be also taken off logs dowhill from sidelings???

Wouldn't that make it a man made hazard

skid wrote:I stated before these are my personal views.

Yep Skid - you certainly left your mark

BrentC wrote:

Furgus wrote:isn't it fair to assume that sharp branches should be also taken off logs dowhill from sidelings???

Wouldn't that make it a man made hazard

Duh -NO!!![size=12] - but it would've made it a safe one[/b]

*edit*

I've visited and watched 5 national trials last year and one so far this year. I've helped organise the Egmont trial this year as club president and chairman of our rally committee. I have never competed beyond club champs and interclub challenges. My company was also the major sponsor of the Egmont round and significant sponsor of Manukau's effort and we are also sponsoring the "driver/moment of the day" over the whole series on TV and you'll love the prize for it I hope.

So here's my $0.02 worth - There is always some validity to any gripe about any of our Association's events because we are not professional event organisers or promotors. We do the best we can with the volunteers who'll help us and the resources we can muster from within our clubs and from what we can wheedle from commercial partners.

In order to promote and protect what we have, which is one of the few motorsport events where the trucks and drivers are still the key and everything else comes after, we need to all pitch in together to try and solve any problems that arise.

Otherwise, and it may in a lot of ways be a good thing, we'll wind up with an organisation like AVESCO (V8 supercars) professionally managing the whole series.

During drivers' briefing at the Egmont round Chace spoke about the competition format and asked if any were in favour of a return to zone competions and a short final series. This was meant to be a way of reducing field sizes to more manageable levels for the hosts. There were no takers.

So drivers will have to endure hazards that are obviously aimed solidly at challenging the top performers and make the most of it. They'll have to tame the red mist and pull out early on some hazards - as some already obviously already do.

Clubs should at least recognise this and make the hazards gradually more difficult from the entry, grade them accordingly and save the suicide stuff for the last 10 -20 points on each hazard.

The fallen tree may have been overlooked at Ramarama but in Manukau organisers defence, Association officials have the final say and in my experience are not afraid to speak up. Once it became obvious it was quickly removed or made safer I am told.

In the end, you get what you pay for and ours is quite a cheap form of top level motorsport still. Not perfect, but not bad.

Gordon Burnside

Furgus wrote: - isn't it fair to assume that sharp branches should be also taken off logs dowhill from sidelings??? or am I just too much of a f'n softie!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I wasn't aware of these sharp branches, as I said, I was only spectating........ I don't see an issue with this, if they were obviously dangerous then they should have been removed. Why do you guys not all get together at the hazard when you see this sort of thing and refuse to go on until it's fixed? If I go to a meet with my bike where there's something hazardous all the riders stand up and get it sorted on the spot.
I still say it was great from a spectators point of veiw

Flash2004 wrote:In the end, you get what you pay for and ours is quite a cheap form of top level motorsport still. Not perfect, but not bad.

Gordon Burnside

Good call

Furgus wrote:

Flash2004 wrote:In the end, you get what you pay for and ours is quite a cheap form of top level motorsport still. Not perfect, but not bad.

Gordon Burnside

Good call

Sounds like competitors would be prepared to pay more for a better managed/setup event

Sounds like competitors would be prepared to pay more for a better managed/setup event [/quote]

No doubt this will be raised and discussed by the competitions committee. Which, incidentally, is where all matters related to the competition should be discussed, as opposed to a public forum like this?

Flash2004 wrote:No doubt this will be raised and discussed by the competitions committee. Which, incidentally, is where all matters related to the competition should be discussed, as opposed to a public forum like this?

why is that? You don't think the general public is entitled to discuss competitions whether they be drivers, marshals, sponsers or spectators. This way everyone learns and knows what goes on in these sort of events and may lead to greater understanding when things happen on the day of the event. Sure decisions should be made by committees but there is nothing wrong with discussing the sport on a public forum, infact it probably does a lot more good than any one gives it credit for

Mike

Flash2004 wrote:No doubt this will be raised and discussed by the competitions committee. Which, incidentally, is where all matters related to the competition should be discussed, as opposed to a public forum like this?

Bullshit. This is EXACTLY where matters like this should be discussed... keeping problems like this locked up in a comittee is probably why you HAVE the problems...

If you're afraid of public opinion, don't run public events.

My 2c

Steve