Offroad-Express

Jerry wrote: ... as I said all I am trying to do is stop this happening again ...

Then take on board all that has been said previously, post the pics with sole intent of of education, and temper your penchant to legislate.

warlord225 wrote:oy. Leave jerry to his mindless rambling, and by "telling someone off" over the internet you look like a putz.
*putz - go look it up

I'll look it up when you come out of the closet.

Yes I'm awear of this, on anything I run there will be a disclaimer and tow hook checks.

but you wouldn't have thought this would have happened with a factor "tow hook"

crappy jappa vehicles

just a question regarding 'rating'...if the hook has ' rated 10000lbs' stamped on the side does it mean its the 'real deal'

Jerry wrote:

oy. Leave jerry to his mindless rambling,

FYI Warlord....if there was a serious injury then You would have been held responsible as the "organiser" in the eyes of OSH, the Police etc......checking hooks etc is something that is easily forgotten....and only takes 5 mins and something that we ALL need to remember to do....

PS Thanks for the support

Well Jerry, the answer is simple.

If YOU organise the trip, then YOU check the hooks. If YOU don't like them, YOU send them home.

Thats as far as you will ever get with little private trips run from the forums.

If you want people to stick to a policy, run your trips through the association where you know all the members will have towing systems that are up to spec.

New people that aren't members can come as a visitor for a couple of trips, then they have to join and there vehicle has to meet the standard.


FFS, it REALLY is as simple as that Jerry.


( tryin not to sound grumpy here )

brianr70 wrote:just a question regarding 'rating'...if the hook has ' rated 10000lbs' stamped on the side does it mean its the 'real deal'

The tow hook might be, but not if its captive nuts on only one side of the chassis.

John

Sadam still has his head attatched to his shoulders and is pretty pleased about it. I dont think there would be any dispute that the hook would have peirced the panel like paper if it hadnt struck the H frame at the back of the cab.

Hooks and recoveries have always been debated and always will. Rated hooks and approved mounts or not there will never be any gaurantee that something won't break or go wrong, anything will ultimately give with enough force and unfortunately the consequences can easily be fatal.

Safety will always be a personal responsibility and its something I have to be accountable for in this incident, I've got a f@%ing heavy truck and I'm aware that it can easily produce big forces in snatches, I'm comftable with my own hook mountings but I neglicted to assess the hook on the other vehicle myself before exerting any force to it.... its me thats in the firing line. Usually I always use the hooks on the passenger side of my truck to try and minimise the drivers side from being in the direct fireing line if something does go wrong, the oppotunity was there for me to check which side of my truck the strap had been put on but I didnt. Lastly I was the one in control of the amount of force that was applied to the strap, it was the second pull and although not excessive it was a hard pull.

As the vise old men say
if it needs more than moderate force, put the winch on it and pull it out nice and easily

ok....here it is as i see it.
1 The tow hook as such didnt fail....where it was attached to failed.
By looking at the pics the hook was attached to a piece of box section that wasnt properly atached to the chassis....as too why it failed..hard to say...put noticed several possibe things maybe wrong...as tow eye wasnt directly attached to chassis rail the box section would of acted like a lever multiplying the force being applied to the chassis rail....making it more likely to fail.
The box section was only welded along 2 sides..when 4 would of been stronger
The box section was hollow..it didnt have metal attached to the ends making it more rigid & there fore stronger & less likely to twist.

Method of towing.
Was a dampning device used..eg a towel or sack hang over rope or snatch strap to deaden it if it let use???...its amazing the diffence this makes if it lets go...i suspect it wasnt.

A method ive seen used is to use a tree protector as a safety rope if the primary hook fails.
this is how to do it.
1 Using a shackel join the snatch strap & the tree protector together
2 Put the snatch strap only over the hook
3 put the loose end of the tree protector over you other tow hook
If the primary tow hook fails the snatch will be caught by the 2nd tow hook
this method can only be used if you have 2 tow hooks.

Well, I was right beside this "incident" and saw exactly what happened and it was quite frightening to be honest. It just shows how easily things can go bad, but luckily everything turned out for the best. I am not very experienced with 4WDing, I just like coming along for the ride and enjoy it. But here is my thought on it from a lay-mans point of view, so here goes!!.......

Why would you even consider letting someone come on a trip for 3 seperate occasions until they get their shit sorted out? The tow hook could crap out and kill someone on the first trip! I cannot see the logic in that theory AT ALL! When we bought our whale, we did not come on the first few trips because we did not have the right gear, and did not want to endanger ourselves, or others by not having it. I think this is irresponsible thought, and ANYONE without the Essential safety gear should not be able to partake on these trips, or at the very least, everyone else on the trip needs to be made aware, and towing etc is at the discretion of each individual in respect of that person.

Having two little boys in the back of our 4x4, a tow hook on the end of a flying strop would be lethal. There is no point in abusing each other and criticising everyone elses opinions, this is what a forum is about, so to everyone, please stop bringing each other down, and work to resolve the issue at hand, which is EVERYONES safety on ANY trip.....a flying tow hook does not say "Oh, yes well this tow vehicle is a CCVC vehicle so I won't fly off into his back window, I will wait till next time when a ORE non-association vehicle is pulling on me to do that"!!

Food for thought. Scary shit I tell you. Dunno about Sadam Hussain, but my heart was palpitating for about an hour after that happened I reckon.

Sensible Answer Handbrake.......I guess its lucky you weren't recovering Daisy

Rated hooks can be engineered to a degree of safety so there is less chance of them flying off, in this situation the hook bends releasing the strop, the danger is with factory hooks which are cast and always snap under pressure, the mountings are not good usually either (ask Jtop...he test them). and should be mounted in such a way that it will hold the hook for forwards and sideways movement. this requires thought ie not just drilling a couple of holes and hoping for the best

Most people in clubs are aware of the dangers of this and accept this, on a forum such as this there are people who don't like rules/clubs, or can't see the need or can't be bothered fitting the proper hooks. there seems to be a mixture of club/non club people on here, add into this you have association and non association members as well as assn and non assn trips being organised.....

My only concern is to prevent this from happening again, I would rather suffer the abuse for debating this than try to explain to the police why hooks werent checked....

So how do we achieve this?????????????

I agree, and I would rather Jerry cop abuse for debating this ( ) rather than any of us having to clean anyone elses brains up off thier dash boards when a hook hits them in the head

Besides I can always pay someone $5 to throw abovesaid persons into the nearest bog again for me if they abuse me too much

its been said many times before. Whoever is incharge of the trip should check the hooks. if they aren't good then they cant come. also before you tow someone its your responsability to decide if you trust their hook. if you dont then dont tow them. its really quite simple.

keep people informed of the danger and keep it an ongoing conversation as it is. educate people how to put their hooks on properly.

as for the how do we sort it out for our trips.its up to the people on the individual trips.

you guys seem to be the only people with a problem. down here if theres no where to tow then they cant come or won't be towed.

it seems that when you talk about we you mean you and the group that you always go out with and its up to you to sort it out. have a conversation at the start of a all your trips of something.

this thread is full off good info about hooks and the dangers involved. leave it at that and educate people that who ever is involved in any recovery any where any time these are the people that are responsible for making safe decisioins and try to give them the info to make these decisions



Pete

Like I said earlier, Plate on the nut side, crush tubes , 8.8 bolts (at least), rated tow hook - works for most clubs I know of and no need for rules upon rules. Everyone can see and everyone knows.

No need to ponder over miniscule details, use common sense. if the above incident was bolted as i said here it would not have come away.

However, there is always an exception, and no matter what you do if you play with fire, you will get burned. Might not be a tow hook next time? Maybe we should all have rated roll cages? A lot more vehilces roll than tow hooks come off.

John

Again, the answer is simple.

If YOU organise the trip, then YOU check the hooks. If YOU don't like them, YOU send them home.

Simple responsibility if your the trip leader. YOU check the hooks on the vehicles your alowing on YOUR trip.

As you are involved running in Non-assocaiation trips, this is the price you pay and what you have to deal with.

Thats as far as you will ever get with little private trips run from the forums.

That is why we made the ORE 4X4 Association, so we could have policies governing such things as the tow hooks.

It is pointless to try to impose policy on the 4wding public. Again, thats why clubs are formed.

Run your trips through the association where you know all the members will have towing systems that are up to spec.

On the other hand, don't attend non-association trips, that way you will know every one should have the required and safe set up on their vehicles.

New people that aren't members can come as a visitor for a couple of trips, then they have to join, but there vehicle has to meet the standards.

Otherwise with the private trips organised on the public forums, if you as the trip leader don't like the towing equipment on the vehicles that are attending on the day, send them home.

There is no debate to be had.

Maybe a thread on the best way to mount hooks (would be a repost), but other wise, there simply is no debate to be had.

Your last post confirms my suspicion Jerry - you do have a learning disability (perhaps consequent to being struck in the head by a towhook).
Clearly the advice documented within this forum, as per that entered in response to multiple similar posts previously authored by you, reflecting repeating themes of: "education, personal responsibility, engineering consult, and trip-leader scruntineering", are not what you are wanting to hear!

Is it any wonder that some, and I very much include myself in this number, are becoming frustrated with your bloody-mindedness; you are continually seeking a mandate to legislate for safety in the naieve belief that this will result in compliance and remove risk. Risk can never be removed in entireity; therefore, it is up to us individually and collectively to identify/manage its existence.

A method ive seen used is to use a tree protector as a safety rope if the primary hook fails.
this is how to do it.
1 Using a shackel join the snatch strap & the tree protector together
2 Put the snatch strap only over the hook
3 put the loose end of the tree protector over you other tow hook
If the primary tow hook fails the snatch will be caught by the 2nd tow hook
this method can only be used if you have 2 tow hooks.

Not sure who posted this as it was a couple of pages back but I personally like this a lot and will adopt it, something so simple and I feel stupid for not ever thinking of it. If they dont have another tow hook just tie it around their steering arm / spare wheel, anything to stop that hook flying. One both ends would be great. Those tow straps which cost 18 bucks and are 4m long would be perfect!! My surf has two tow hooks up front, three tow points in the back (two hooks and a winching point) - so no chance of a hook coming off there with this method.

But saying that I would change it so there is not another shackle in there and instead just feed the tow strap through it self over the snatch so the tow strap can slide up and down the snatch and then put this on the tow hook.

Mike

i cant beleive how many times this whole hook thing gets rebirthed??
yes we do have a ore ass policy but as db said you cannot force those rules on forum members.....
trip leader check them, if not happy send them away.....

i think the wellington ore rep maybe should be trying to have more
ORE ass trips then he can go by the rules set.....


again unbelieveable......
we know its bad, and people who were there will think twice about
who and where they recover from next time.....

this is the forum

The only thing I see that may hinder this type of "Tree Protector" for backup Recovery Missile preventer, is that when said towing point collapses and towing vehicle is applying forward motion to retrieve said stuck vehicle, what then happens to the "tied" off end of the tree protector when all this energy is deliverd to it? Especially when it is tied to a steering arm etc and now has the addition of a shackel in it.
It's not like the towing vehicle is going to manage to stop the very instant something gives to allow this backup system to come into place as is suggested.

Maybee im completely wrong here, but this is just how I see it.

kiwipete wrote:The only thing I see that may hinder this type of "Tree Protector" for backup Recovery Missile preventer, is that when said towing point collapses and towing vehicle is applying forward motion to retrieve said stuck vehicle, what then happens to the "tied" off end of the tree protector when all this energy is deliverd to it? Especially when it is tied to a steering arm etc and now has the addition of a shackel in it.
It's not like the towing vehicle is going to manage to stop the very instant something gives to allow this backup system to come into place as is suggested.

Maybee im completely wrong here, but this is just how I see it.

I agree, you'd want the secondary attachment point to be strong enough to withstand these forces. If a towhook breaks, there will more than likely be a fairly large force involved.

one thing that could have been done(and I've never seen it done), but wasn't was the use of safety or catch lines, this perhaps is more paramount than pointing the finger and all the rest of it, this will stop flying hooks and shackels.

DaveM wrote:I agree, you'd want the secondary attachment point to be strong enough to withstand these forces. If a towhook breaks, there will more than likely be a fairly large force involved.

It might give the hook a chance to "fall" out....

The concept of using a tree protector as a safety line is good. There was discussion some years back in the NZFWDA about using a safety line to restrain a failed connection to a vehicle. With a reasonable proportion of 4x4's now carrying a tree protector the idea should be encouraged.
Although a loose hook attached to a stretched rope has huge energy it is still governed by physics and the tree protector even if not tied to an immovable object will absorb a lot of the energy.
There should not be a shackle in the system.

A restraint system would balance the problem that not all hooks are load stamped and whether to in fact believe the rating indicated on some. Most vehicle manufacturers do not use hooks with load markings although experience indicates that the majority are more than adequate.

The reality is that we are using ropes with higher load ratings than the point of attachment which is rather back to front. The lighter component, ie the rope, should fail before breaking a heavy component.

Peter Vahry

I'll refrain from commenting on the side issues that have appeared... once again the forum has lapsed into childish namecalling and dribble...

The issue here is that a factory MU rear towpoint has failed. My one was distorted when I got the vehicle, and I removed the hook and threw it away. The mount itself seems quite inadequate for anything other than towing, and the hook is quite a light design. Its simply not suitable for snatching from IMHO. The front one really didn't look much better either.

I replaced both ends with something far more substantial... but as for the rear, as I used the factory 4-bolt-pattern mounting on the rear crossmember I was careful to only use that to gentle-recover or tow (paranoia)... the front was 10mm plate double-welded to the front crossmember and chassis and this is what I used to snatch when neccessary.

Steve

The issue here is not the MU tow point Steve, but the driver of the vehicle taking ownership of the vehicle and its hooks etc. We cannot get ORE or trip leaders to police every truck, we all know what is required in a hook go out take a look at yours and see before every trip.

It is the drivers responsibility to make sure their vehicle is recoverable and in a state to be able to go on trips no-one elses. Steve looked and ended up replacing his hooks not for his saftey but for everyones that show's responsibility.

Matt4u is changing the mounting of his hooks from suggestions on here again driver responsibility.

Accidents will happen you cannot stop them, there are a lot of people on here that can help you get the 4x4 right for very little cost or even only a few beer's so there is no excuse.

OK Rant over

Ok I've considered all the responses....I'm disappointed with some of them...I'm not trying to create extra rules or extra unnecessary compliance...I just don't want a repeat of the incident....the comment that it just happens to the welly guys...think again....it could happen on ANY ORE trip, I have heard of incidents on other 4wd Club trips as well....and its no different to say leading an ORE trip into a river in flood and then getting flack for it a year later......to other clubs and the press, police and OSH there is no differentiation between assn and non assn members.

Leave the namecalling and bickering to yourself....concentrate on stopping this happening. would you prefer I just sit back and not do anything and hope it doesn't happen again...?

Some suggestions I have had....

- Create some inhouse ORE GUIDELINES (Note these are used as a guide ie not a rule....do you know the difference or do I have to quote the dictionary for you) for safely mounting hooks. this can also be used by trip leaders (or people leading trips) to check hooks with.
- Run some informal trip planning / trip leading sessions for interested Welly guys.
- Run some informal Recovery training for the interested Welly guys.
- Contact anyone organising a Welly trip and give them the tripsheets and drivers briefing to use if they want and see if they are ok.

I don't see anyone else offering any other serious or practical suggestions.....

Jerry wrote:I don't see anyone else offering any other serious or practical suggestions.....

Sorry Jerry, with the greatest respect for your point of view, but I disagree, obviously you have not been reading the replies (name calling ones excluded) there have been some good and practical suggestions made. Including some 'guidlines' about hook mounting by me. All of mine have plates on the nut side, bolted right through the chassis by 8.8 bolts and crush tubes inside. All of which have passed the Manawatu club inspections day made by suitably qualified personnel.

They have been other quite good suggestions on here too. just none about making rules.

John

Jerry wrote:I don't see anyone else offering any other serious or practical suggestions.....

You mean you didn't actually read ANYTHING in the preceeding pages of posts? Stop throwing your toys out of the cot and take on board whats being said to you...

If one person disagrees with you then thats just a disagreement... If everyone disagrees with you then chances are you're a twat...

If I were you, I'd move the pics to the Isuzu section or the toolshed and we'll start a thread about making reliable and strong recovery points for MU's - but I think this particular thread is buggered.

Steve

Yep, proabably is buggared, as is the MU!!

I think the best lesson from this incident is to ban towing out MU's with factory hooks.

John

Probably....but this thread has raised awareness of the issue and got people thinking about it...until the next incident occurs , and I have been given some good idea's about some informal sessions with the Welly guys.....

What were your thoughts on some towhook mounting guidelines?

jerry wrote:and its no different to say leading an ORE trip into a river in flood and then getting flack for it a year later......to other clubs and the press, police and OSH there is no differentiation between assn and non assn members.

Actually it wasnt an ORE trip jerry, One or two of the people on the trip happened to be from this site.

If you want to put in place all your ideas then feel free, but someone has to administer it and it wont be me, I have enough to do. I doubt it will be you as well because you have enough to do with the association (newsletters, trip sheets, saftey documents, meetings and last time I checked none of this stuff is getting done). So lets just put the rules and practices in a place where they should be, clubs and the association and let common sense and guidelines that people submit prevail in the forums.

Mike