access to doc land

Discussions concerning land access, DOC legislation and 4wd regulations
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Aquasprite
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Post by Aquasprite »

DaveM wrote:
42nd wrote:I get quite annoyed when i hear people making accusations about some one who is trying to represent our sport, it is very easy to sit back and slag some one off, don't we all think it would be better for these people to offer to pitch in and help out, they will probably then find out ,it aint that easy! To be realistic, you aint gunna get it all your own way.


I get annoyed with people posting under topics such as this without so much as an introduction.

From what I have gathered, if the person(s) representing 4wding are pushing for there to be access to DOC land by permit only, then why the hell would I pitch in and help?

Hi, :D I have been 4WDing since 1982 and have seen the irresponsible, senseless destruction of places like the Waipara River area and Macetown, caused by those who want total freedom and will not join a Club. Obviously, locked gates are not good, but how else do you keep Mr R. Sole de Hoon out?
If you want totally free access to all places for all people, why not start with your own property?
You could extend a personal invitation to Mr R. Sole de Hoon, in his big turbo diesel 4WD, to come and spin donuts on YOUR front lawn, then plough through YOUR vege gaden and spray the spuds and peas all over the back fence. Then you would know and understand what DOC staff feel, and why you should pitch and help. :D
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Re: access

Post by Leithfield »

PRO4WD wrote:: ...
3. club members will not be shown what is being submitted on their behalf.


If this is indeed so, any member of a constituent club has right under the New Zealand Official Information Act 1982 to request D.O.C. release copy. Over-ride of the Privacy Act 1993 is not applicable as any submission by Combined is deemed representative of it's consitituent clubs and their affiliated members.
http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/other/p ... o_act.html

In brief:
What is the law on access to official information?
There are two Acts that govern access to official information:
The Official Information Act 1982; and the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act 1987. The guiding principle is that information must be made available unless good reason exists under the Acts for withholding it.

The purpose of the law is to:
Increase the availability of official information to promote more effective public participation in the making and administration of laws and policies;
to promote the accountability of Ministers of the Crown and government officials; and protect sensitive information where necessary in the public interest or to preserve personal privacy.

What information can you ask for?
You can ask for: access to any specified official information; reasons for decisions made about you; internal policies, principles, rules or guidelines; and meeting agendas and minutes of public bodies, including those not open to the public.

How do you request information?
Making a request is simple:
Contact the Minister, department, organisation or local authority (Mayor, councillor or council staff ) concerned and ask for the information; Be as specific as you can in identifying what information you are looking for; Requests are best made in writing, but you can ask for the information in person or by telephone too; and keep a note of when, how and who you made your request to (and keep a copy of any requests made in writing).

Kevin Dougherty
Southern Public Relations Officer
O.R.E. National 4x4 Assoc. Inc.
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SupraLux
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Post by SupraLux »

Aquasprite wrote:I have been 4WDing since 1982 and have seen the irresponsible, senseless destruction of places like the Waipara River area and Macetown, caused by those who want total freedom and will not join a Club.


So let me get this right - because I choose to not join a club I am therefor a senseless hooligan who will destroy anything I touch just for the pure enjoyment of it.

Get your head out of your ass.

I have been 4WDing and trailriding since before I could drive, and I was brought up to look after the environment I live in. It is a sport and a recreation I love and enjoy... and believe me I would be the first person to rip a dickhead out of his 4WD and point out the stupidity of his actions should I catch him damaging both our image and our environment.

I don't like politics, and another thing I don't like is arrogant buttheads who believe their politics are the be-all and end-all. I won't join a club, I see no need to. I've been to club meetings, and I've been involved with clubs in the past. They waste my time, they bore me to tears and they tend to be overly regulated. I will 4WD in my own space, in my own time, and with all due respect to the area I use. If submissions are required, I will make them and I encourage all others to do the same.

Not being a club-member does not mean you don't care. And people with attitudes like yours are a good part of the reason I won't join one.

Steve
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albundy
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Post by albundy »

Well said Steve. At least you didn't hide behind a username like this other cronnies are doing.
Aquasprite wrote:
I have been 4WDing since 1982 and have seen the irresponsible, senseless destruction of places like the Waipara River

And I have seen members of your own club up there doing the same, yes I know who you are Pete :!: Actually one of the members of our recovery squads was called out to rescue some landrovers (members of CLROC) up at the gorge ( on a private trip), but somewhere where they had been asked by Paul to stay out of. I raised this issue with Paul and to my knowledge it has not been addressed.
PRO4WD wrote:
I asked a reasonable question, i thought many club members would be interested in some informed discussion on this topic
.
yes it is reasonable, pity the club members won't take the issue up, are they scared of rocking the hierarchial boat or they just don't give a toss, believing everything that is spouted to them, I hope this is not the case. But I fear it is.
Al
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Steve_t647
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Post by Steve_t647 »

Aquasprite wrote:Obviously, locked gates are not good, but how else do you keep Mr R. Sole de Hoon out?
Then you would know and understand what DOC staff feel, and why you should pitch and help. :D


I am afraid locked gates will not keep "Mr R. Sole de Hoon" as you aptly name him out of anywhere, gates only work for the good and reasonable people. I have access to a lot of areas for hunting and try my best to tread lightly and go where landowners say (anyone can pick a wrong track) and when off course I go back and get on course so I can go back.

Locked gates will more likley mean "Mr R. Sole de Hoon" and all his mates will say I have bolt cutters lets have a really good go at XYZ, Like what happened in Macetown. Macetown was done by locals and a lot of the other issues (Waipra) are locals too, laws and restrictions applied have not worked.

We need for "Mr R. Sole de Hoon" to feel more personal responsability is a permit and a key or knowledge of the pin number going to stop anyone from doing damage? Even trips I have been on with Combined clubs have caused damage, gone off track and even tresspassed the problem is not the attitude of it is ours it is the attitude it is someone elses problem, if you get caught DOC should be able to make them come back and fix what they did and others damage and also fine them for the damage.

I have been on non combined club events where we improved the track for others that could not follow (we got a few through first) 5 people can fix the issue in under 5 minutes, the only time Combined groups have done track maintanance on trips I have been on was when it was on private land.

Ecan is looking at a proposal to have a mud drag race area, a technical area (rock) and something like the course that was out at the showgrounds permanantly open like the motorbikes have. This (I hope) will have a far better result than locked gates as it is one area and setup for anyone to use and have multiple types of 4wding.

Look at the boy racer (and older) attitude a fine is only money 20,000 in Debt to the courts at $10 a week, Unemployed and they still do burnouts wreck roads etc, why not make them work in the road repair crew for 3 weeks? No Pay! and still get the fine or to repair roads in the weekend if they are employed and still get the fine!

Rules will not fix anything consequences to the individual if caught will, this is the system they are looking at in the US and everyone is behind it, because if you do nothing wrong you are not affected, In the US they are making most tracks legal roads so police and court fines can be applied to them.

:oops: Sorry rant over :oops:

I want to still be able to use tracks and love the views and places we can go but we need to put something in place that can work if this doesn't work the next step is no access to anyone and we all do not want that.

I am fit enough to walk but I know people who can't walk, have medical requirements that mean they would not otherwise be able to access an area and older people who want to go back to places.

Personaly it would mean I would have to look at hunting differently (take only what I can eat on the way out there because of the 2 days it would take me to walk out).
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Post by spankmeister »

It would be good of Paul to let us know whether what he has said on here is in contradiction to what Combined's submission is. And if so, why?

Cheers
Mike - PM me for phone number

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hosehustler
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Post by hosehustler »

Aquasprite wrote:You could extend a personal invitation to Mr R. Sole de Hoon, in his big turbo diesel 4WD


One like this one of yours Pete :wink:

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by hosehustler on Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Swaney
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Post by Swaney »

spankmeister wrote:It would be good of Paul to let us know whether what he has said on here is in contradiction to what Combined's submission is. And if so, why?

Cheers


Good call... what exactly has Paul said on behalf of the members? Surely it is time for the rep to speak up??


EDIT:

has everyone sent a short but sweet email to 'westcoastcms@doc.govt.nz' explaining there opinion?
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keen4x4
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Post by keen4x4 »

madaz068 wrote:If this is the case (and i have no reason to question it) Paul (access man for Combined) needs to stand up tell everyone, and also remember that he is not on a higher level and all members need to be told about the reviews DOC are doing.

People its important we all are involved with the CMS reviews not just 1 or 2 people. Remember also, only people that put in submissions are invitied to the review hearings. Only these people can talk.

I encourage every 4wder in NZ to put submissions in


I also suggest everybody puts in a submission or they get access to one for assistence. I feel all members and associted clubs that are part of the Combined have been skewed and the Combined have been obstructive. People believed the Combined would put in a submission on their behalf and or provide help in making one.
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Post by DaveM »

Aquasprite wrote:You could extend a personal invitation to Mr R. Sole de Hoon, in his big turbo diesel 4WD, to come and spin donuts on YOUR front lawn, then plough through YOUR vege gaden and spray the spuds and peas all over the back fence. Then you would know and understand what DOC staff feel, and why you should pitch and help. :D


This IS my land!
I work my ar$e off and pay taxes, therefore I help to employ the DOC staff, and it is public land, so therefore these hoons already tear up my "lawn"

I still don't support having to get permits to drive through doc land, it will just make it easier for them to ban vehicle access all together, apart from yuppies who can afford to pay for guided trips into the land that every tax payer here already owns.
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Post by PeterVahry »

Come on folks, don't waste effort with the "he said" etc just write your own submission to the West Coast CMS and send it to DOC. If if contradicts someone else's argument then you've at least both put your case.

Remember this CMS is just the first of a long line and they will all need input from the 4x4 community if you are to have the chance of four wheeling around NZ.

Keep your submission simple and concise. Be polite too. The Oct 5 deadline is approaching fast.
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Post by albundy »

There will be an indepth and well written submission going up today. It is not mine, but written by a very concerned 4x4er. I will get his permission first, but I think it is written for all to use. Remember we need numbers so they don't just roll over us and ignore us. There will also be a map of the coast going up that will outline the areas of concern.
Al
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Post by Leithfield »

PeterVahry wrote:Come on folks, don't waste effort with the "he said" etc just write your own submission to the West Coast CMS and send it to DOC. If if contradicts someone else's argument then you've at least both put your case.

Remember this CMS is just the first of a long line and they will all need input from the 4x4 community if you are to have the chance of four wheeling around NZ ...


While I am in agreement that all members of the 4wd community should make submission, and all have right to their personal expression, in this circumstance I also judge the 'he said/she said' of significant relevance. Combined 4wd Clubs have positioned to make submission on behalf of it's multiple constituent clubs, there is confusion as to whether this has accurately reflected the instruction received, and a perceived reluctance to table the content for member scrutiny. Given that "this CMS is just first in a long line and they will all need input from the 4x4 community", there is every need for affiliated members to have confidence that their instruction is respected and reflected.

By way of assistance to fellow 4wders, I note that email and telephone contact details for Brent McGuire and Paul Dolheguy of Combined Clubs are in the public domain, as published on their web site:
http://www.4wd.org.nz/News_Apr_2005.htm

Keen4x4 has summed up the stance and concern echoed within this forum well:
keen4x4 wrote: I also suggest everybody puts in a submission or they get access to one for assistence. I feel all members and associted clubs that are part of the Combined have been skewed and the Combined have been obstructive. People believed the Combined would put in a submission on their behalf and or provide help in making one.


Kevin Dougherty
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O.R.E. 4x4 National 4wd Assoc Inc.
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Ruff
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SUBMISSION TO CMS

Post by Ruff »

THANKS PETER vAHREY FOR YOUR WELL CONSIDERED REPLIES.
TIME IS RUNNING SHORT TO GET YOUR SUBMISSION IN.
THERE IS A SUBMISSION AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO READ AND SIGN IN SUPPORT AT THREE CHRISTCHURCH LOCATIONS.
REMEMBER, IF YOU DONT GET YOUR NAME ON A SUBMISSION YOU CANT JOIN THE DEBATE LATTER.
LOCATION 1. PETER MUNRO ARB. 137 BLENHIEM RD
2. 4WD ACCESSORIES MONTEAL ST.
3. JOHN RADLEY MECHANICAL 961 COLOMBO ST.
A BIG THANK YOU TO THESE THREE.
COME ON GUYS MAKE THE TIME TO GET DOWN THERE AND BE HEARD.
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Re: SUBMISSION TO CMS

Post by Swaney »

Ruff wrote:THERE IS A SUBMISSION AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO READ AND SIGN IN SUPPORT AT THREE CHRISTCHURCH LOCATIONS.
HEARD.


Awesome.

Is there a chance of putting the submission online so that it can be viewed online and maybe emailed to doc?
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Post by albundy »

Is there a chance of putting the submission online so that it can be viewed online and maybe emailed to doc?

It is coming. Mike has it and the maps. It will be posted in the Westcoast CMS review thread. I or Mike will put a link to it in here as well.
Al
Here they are:
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/forum/submission_west_coast_cms.rtf
and
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/forum/West_Coast_CMS_Map.pdf
Any questions, fire away and I will try and awnser as best I can.[/url]
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OVERSZ
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CMS

Post by OVERSZ »

This topic now seems to have got on track and the real issue is being dealt to.
I’ve followed the CMS since the beginning when Peter Vahry first bought the subject up on this Forum. It’s a tad sad that many who have been critical of those that have done something, did nothing about it at the time.
DOC held meetings along the entire West Coast, sometimes with only 4 people attending. I and another 4x4er attended the meeting in Hokitika. I discovered that DOC were meeting interested groups in Christchurch the following week.
I arranged a meeting to be held with representatives of Four Wheel Drive Clubs, not just those who are represented by Canterbury Combined. ( I should point out here that I am a member of 2 clubs who both belong to Combined) Mid Canterbury (NZFWDA) North Otago (Independent) and Kaikoura Clubs were invited to have Reps at this meeting.
The meeting was informative and dialogue between DOC and those interested established.
From this meeting I organized DOC to speak at a further meeting at the Cashmere Club. Paul Dolheguy through this Forum advised of the meeting and invited all who wanted to attend to attend. I had contact with Nick Lawson Secretary of NZFWDA and he attended as well. The NZDA were also invited as many of the same issues with regards vehicles affect them.
I felt the meeting was under attended with only about 35 people there. I was expecting to have a couple of hundred there.
Al McDougall of ORE and this Forum was there and every one had the opportunity to ask questions.
Paul D urged everyone to put in a submission. Submissions he makes might not cover all points and some people may have points that others didn’t. This way there was a greater chance of getting submissions on all of interest. I must say that having written and sent my Submission that there are (since reading http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/forum/s ... st_cms.rtf ) a number of things that I haven’t put in my submission which makes Paul D’s recommendation valid.
I believe that at the last Canterbury Combined Meeting that all member Clubs were urged to put in a Submission.
I also organized a further meeting for Timaru where we had members of North Otago and Otago Clubs attend The 2 Timaru Clubs attended. Once again there were many lees than I had expected.
Before this meeting the Team Leader for DOC Planning told me they had concerns about the way they had worded the Draft CMS in relationship to Vehicles and that it sounded more restrictive than the intention.
I believe that many of the changes suggested in submissions will take place and that we will have a positive relationship with DOC on the West Coast.
An interesting comment was that the 4WD community has been the most represented group at any of the meetings. No other interest groups have had the level of interest as we have had.
Like Al I have spent many hours wading through information. The Conservation Act 1987, The General Plan 2005 and the current Draft of the CMS. As well I have driven to the West Coast and 3 times to Christchurch as well as attending the Wheels in the High Country Forum in Dunedin. My commitment in time and effort was done on my own. I didn’t have a mandate or speaking rights from my Club.
Why did I do it? So I could continue to go Four Wheel Driving on the West Coast. Selfish I know, but if because of my efforts everyone wins then that’s great too. I’m but a volunteer like Al and Paul D. We can only do what time permits us to.
This is no place for people who have made NO effort to date to get on their High Horse and dump crap on those that have at done something. There has been criticism of Canterbury Combined, has the NZFWDA made their submission available to their member clubs? I was asked by one of these member clubs if they could use my submission as a basis for their own.
We must have a united front where we must all work together. Members of Forest & Bird and other oppositions groups must be sitting back watching us divide. They will be more than happy because the easiest way to conquer is to Divide.
The important thing in all this is that if there is something in the CMS that you would like changed get your submission in. If you don’t have the ability to do it find someone to do it for you. If you feel strongly enough pay a professional to do it for you. You only have until the 5th October.
The hearings are public and anyone can attend. Only those who have made submissions may address the hearing. You don’t have to do this yourself, you can be represented. If there are enough Submissions from an area outside the West Coast they will hear submissions in other locations. Christchurch will almost certainly be allocated time. The Hearing can also take place at convenient times including in the evening.
If you have read to here it shows you’re interested. If there is anything you wish to discuss with me I would prefer that it was done by PM (private message)

Graham Pullman
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hosehustler
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Post by hosehustler »

Nice post Graham, I applaud you on not only the post which was excellent reading/volunteerism on your behalf.....even if you are being selfish about the coast, :lol:
but also the fact that you write what you have attended/organised/and think, but the fact that you sign it/don't hide and are willing to contibute
cheers :cheers:
Tim
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Re: CMS

Post by madaz068 »

OVERSZ wrote: I had contact with Nick Lawson Secretary of NZFWDA and he attended as well.

Graham Pullman


I am the PRO Graham. Kathy the NZFWDA Sec is much better than i am with all the paperwork. :wink:

OVERSZ wrote:Paul D urged everyone to put in a submission. Submissions he makes might not cover all points and some people may have points that others didn’t. This way there was a greater chance of getting submissions on all of interest.

Graham Pullman


Im sorry to disagree Graham but Pauls words were, that Combined was doing the Submission on a higher level and there might not be time to get the submissions to the member clubs. It was only after i spoke up with Al suggesting that all 4wders put submissions in that Paul D states this as well. He was challenged from the back of the room from someone that i dont know about why the member clubs didnt already have a copy of it.

OVERSZ wrote:
There has been criticism of Canterbury Combined, has the NZFWDA made their submission available to their member clubs?

Graham Pullman


Simple answer, yes including the Position Paper presented to SPARC.

I would like to see all this crap stopping from this point on, but needed the members to have the truth.

Apart from that lets get everyone to write a submission.

Graham would you be willing for your submission to be put up on the ORE website?
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CMS

Post by OVERSZ »

Nick. Sorry about your title but DOC when they contacted me said you were the secretary.
Anyway from memory it did go something like you recall. Memory need jogging. But at the end of the day Paul did endorse the everyone puts in a Submission.
As for a copy of my Submission? Having read the Submission Link posted by AL I would go for that one. That person has had a far better understanding than I and the research about the RMA and ACC is pertinent.
Mine is rather simpler than that.

Cheers Graham
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Post by Steve_t647 »

Just to be clear I do not think we were bagging anyones submission what I was doing was trying to obtain a copy of their submission as they were representing me, but this was and still is not available.

From what I have read and heard through DOC I decided that I would encourage everyone to submit as well as the combined submission as I believe they do not represent my opinion completely.

I congratulate those that have submitted a concidered resopnse and some of what Combined has put forward is valid but other sections do not represent me so I sent in my own having read and concidered the document but as indicated I missed some things noted that other people have noticed (Including things covered in the combined submission I missed but agree with)

What we all wanted and are starting to get is well written and constructed submissions and between them all we will get something far more representative from the 4wd community how we wish to work with DOC and have the access managed in the future, as such I believe we will end up with a far better written document.
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Post by PeterVahry »

Nick, sorry to have to disagree but unless you've put a submission in on behalf of the NZFWDA, I don't think one has yet been sent in regard to the West Coast CMS.

I would have liked to have had something finalised by now but with a lack of direct knowledge of the West Coast four wheeling opportunities, I've been hoping that those might have been clearly identified so they can be quoted.

As another writer indicates, there are only now some pointers coming through on what people want from the CMS.

We still have time to try and get this right and it is a good exercise for the following series of other CMS reviews!

As Graham and Al suggest, it is good to have your own name on a submission as that means you go on the DOC mailing list and have the option of speaking in person to the eventual public hearing on the submissions.

Peter
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cms submission

Post by Ruff »

:D Hi Graham, that is my submission on line that you are praising, so thanks for that.
your right there is a lot of work in it.
I was asked to make it available.
like others I am not represented by a club or the combined.
if people agree with my views they can adopt all or part of my submission, and if not, dont.
now steve talks about a submission he has read from the combined.
surely this should be available on line to club members that the combined represent.
otherwise surely it only represents the views of the author, as does yours mine and steves.
JR
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Post by access4WD »

Ruff
Well done.
You seem to have done a good job on two key fronts.
First as you are not affiliated to a Club nor combined then you have seen fit to put in your own submission, That is great
Second you have at your own expense in time given this a lot of good reading, thinking and have made a first class job of a submission. Well done.

You also realise that as a person who is not affiliated to a Club then you have to do your own thing and that is what others in a similar position should do. We are encouraging as many people as possible to have their say, regardless of being a member of a club or not. Local knowledge is a key item in this and as Peter Vahry has said NZ4WDA is struggling as it does not have the local knowledge, and even local Clubs can put their hand up and say the same, for I know in my case and with my club even though we go there a lot and travel a lot over there even we do not know every aspect of the Coast. This is one reason why Combined 4WD Clubs Submission will be all about strategic aspects and then the ability to keep what we have with a view over the next 10 years to get better mapping of roads, on going consultation and moving forward so that recreational opportunities are to be enhanced, work with DOC to make sure that the go forward is better access for 4WD recreational people, so that we get better than we have now, not the reverse. So in essence Ruff we are really all on the same track, and have been from the start.

Thanks for putting your hand up and I hope you also requested to speak to your submission as from what I have read you should ask as you have from the sounds of what you have from what I read a good local knowledge which I am sure a submission panel could learn a lot from your additional input.
Cheers and Regards
Paul
Access Coordinator
Combined 4WD Clubs Inc
http://www.4wd.org.nz
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Post by access4WD »

Oh missed one point,
I have no idea what submission from Combined Steve has read, as it has not yet been completed. We will hopefully complete it over this weekend and Member Clubs will have it then.
Maybe he mixed that up with a submission Graham did for the CHCH 4WD Club.
Paul
Access Coordinator
Combined 4WD Clubs Inc
http://www.4wd.org.nz
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Post by madaz068 »

access4WD wrote:Local knowledge is a key item in this and as Peter Vahry has said NZ4WDA is struggling as it does not have the local knowledge,
Paul


Paul be careful with your words Peter was talking from a personal point of view NOT the NZFWDA. NZFWDA has lots of clubs and people that are more Familiar with the West Coast, including ORE and Nelson, and also including myself that was raised there for over 13 years. I would suggest that you edit your comments to reflect Peters true words which were;

PeterVahry wrote:
I would have liked to have had something finalised by now but with a lack of direct knowledge of the West Coast four wheeling opportunities, I've been hoping that those might have been clearly identified so they can be quoted.

Peter


Lets stop with the little digs and get on with whats important....... Making sure that we as 4wders can still access Public Land managed by DOC.
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