Offroad-Express

yorick wrote:Anchor me, Anchor You.

If you're into serious recovery then these things are essential. If you were doing a hard core Solo or two wagon trip then these are for you. The ones in the drawing are smaller than what we used but no matter, the weights aren't the same either. I've on;y drawn in ten holes, however you can put as many or as few as you like depending on your needs ie LJ Zook or MobyToyota

These are designed to be made out of 8 or 10mm steel plate. The thickness is critical mainly for the end holes cos they're the ones that take the real load. Overkill is good. Everything should break before your anchor plate.

The holes are about 25 to 30 mm. Stakes are up to the designer, however I liked High tensile Hexagonal Rod, purpose built extractor

Only steady winch pulls.

Yorick, I clipped out heaps in the interest of readability.

However, if EVERYBODY made and had just one with stakes, at Pureora there woulda been HEAPS for a decent recovery.

The design has a certain beauty, the dont have to be uniform, as big or little as the maker likes. there is only ONE constraint, the end profile so it can allow the attachment of subsequent plates.

The plate only needs to be made of mild steel if the end hole is reinforced.

Even the rods can be made to the owners space restrictions.
Still need a heavy dong-beater to drive em into the ground!!

Why a steel plate - could you make that up with knoted plasma and steel eyelets





Must give my Mum a call and see if she can still do Macramé

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrame

Moriarty wrote:

yorick wrote:Anchor me, Anchor You.

Yorick, I clipped out heaps in the interest of readability.

Very sensible Bob, I have in the past been accused of Waffling... at the time I thought it was something to do with cooking breakfast

However, if EVERYBODY made and had just one with stakes, at Pureora there woulda been HEAPS for a decent recovery.

The design has a certain beauty, they don't have to be uniform, as big or little as the maker likes. there is only ONE constraint, the end profile so it can allow the attachment of subsequent plates.

The plate only needs to be made of mild steel if the end hole is reinforced.

Even the rods can be made to the owners space restrictions.
Still need a heavy dong-beater to drive em into the ground!!

Yep, all the above, the beauty of going out in teams.

We had a slide hammer type of arrangement that fitted over the top of the stakes. Worked a treat for pulling and driving but it was a big ugly POS, last thing you want banging about in the back of your 4bee

Reece's comments got the grey matter going and some other methods of achieving the same thing popped up, I'll do some research.... bloody fevered imagination again!!

BrentC wrote::shock: Why a steel plate - could you make that up with knoted plasma and steel eyelets





Must give my Mum a call and see if she can still do Macramé

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrame

LOL, One reason: Load variables. With a plate there is no variation because there's no give in the system. when the point moves, everything else moves the same so the load is spread evenly amongst all the stakes, with a flexible system like this however.... well you see what I mean. However, the same sort of thing made from chain....

For instance, something like this



You could then have a piece of chain and say 6 of these hooked along the chain via the Claw(Does that look like a clevis claw?) and staked into the ground (Note that it isn't a grab hook. Most grab hooks reduce the effective rating of the chain by half)

Which one are you, Yorick? cant place you at all.

Regards the chain, all same as macrame spider, still flexible, so the plate idea is still tops.

Been giving it heaps of thought during the day.

we are NOT RL Hereford trucks or even Puddle Jumpers!! so the manufacturing and anchoring requirements are NOT huge.

could we say, 10MM plate with collared end eyes.

Plate to have end eyes (of course!) and two down each side, giving a need for fewer stakes. Less weight, bulk etc.

Seeing as we are USUALY out en mass, we would then have plenty for a winch recovery.

Thinking in the near future, I will be out with three others, four plates will give 17 stakes minimum and if you join the plates with stakes instead of shackles or bolts...... 20 stakes. a 15% increase in anchorage.

have a lenght of 80mm x 6mm flat x 1000 long 30mm holes spaced along it , and five 25mm bars x 600 a flat head for a sledge hammer , an a tag welded on to help removal works well

Moriarty wrote:Which one are you, Yorick? cant place you at all.

We met at Ngaroma I was with Merc in the G-Wagen

Regards the chain, all same as macrame spider, still flexible, so the plate idea is still tops.

I was thinking as long as you had the chain straight and kept tight while you were putting in the stakes, but yea, you're right it would still probably move.

Been giving it heaps of thought during the day.

we are NOT RL Hereford trucks or even Puddle Jumpers!! so the manufacturing and anchoring requirements are NOT huge.

could we say, 10MM plate with collared end eyes.

Plate to have end eyes (of course!) and two down each side, giving a need for fewer stakes. Less weight, bulk etc.

Seeing as we are USUALLY out en mass, we would then have plenty for a winch recovery.

Thinking in the near future, I will be out with three others, four plates will give 17 stakes minimum and if you join the plates with stakes instead of shackles or bolts...... 20 stakes. a 15% increase in anchorage.

Always join with stakes, shackles don't give slowly. One bow shackle for the end. One end eye is stepped, so that your bow shackle is not buried in the dirt, The more I think about it, the more I think you're right. The small plate is simple and virtually foolproof, the other methods would have too many cockup opportunities. A six hole plate with 900mm stakes would hold about 2.5 tonne steady pull in Ngaroma clay.

About the same as hanging a Wopass off the Arapuni Dam ... of course there'd be nowheres to put the stakes, grounds too hard to drive 'em in!

The point is though, if you were going out short handed it wouldn't be a big deal to wack up a couple more. 4 anchor plates with 6 holes is going to be way beyond the 6.5 tonnes breaking strain of any chains that you're likely to have in any case and they would be small enough so that the weight of them wouldn't really be a factor and like you say, we're not pulling tanks.

coxsy wrote:have a lenght of 80mm x 6mm flat x 1000 long 30mm holes spaced along it , and five 25mm bars x 600 a flat head for a sledge hammer , an a tag welded on to help removal works well

It's a nice simple system but in terms of load carrying capability the system falls short.

The system for testing for maximum loading is simple. Take a line from the leading point of your anchor (Where rope or pulley is attached) through to each of the stakes. The more lines you have (that is the fewer that go through more than one stake) the better. The strap system works OK but all the stakes are in a single line of fracture. They also tend to let go more quickly than a distributed load pattern

I'm gona disagree with you Moriarty after seeing this canvas and webbing version in action I'd have to say a "soft" plate does work
If you think about it the only difference is there will be a vector'ed pull
now before everyone starts knotting up there old plasma brent's design needs a bit of a tweek
Look at this (I know its its rough) but in the top pic as your pull comes on the front eye the connection piont will move more in line with the pull untill it reaches a straight line but in the process it has draged the pin around in an arc loosening it

Now if you were to connect each side in line like the bottom diagram your pull is on the vector and dosn't change oh and yorick this is similar to what the farmer was using (he was wider at the front so not inline on the vector) it would be better this way
Oh and an advantage of this over your plate, in scruby conditions add some lengths of plasma to tie it back to any shrubs that happen to fall in line and you have a multiple tieback very similar to how we tie'd block stumps when they were small or in shallow soil

Cheers Reece

Ps come on Moriarty you should have been able to see this you know how to work out a vector force diagram.... oh and I forgot to say I like your bumper :thumleft: I passed ya heading home last time you were down

De-Ranged wrote:8) .. oh and I forgot to say I like your bumper :thumleft: I passed ya heading home last time you were down

Clipped heaps of shit out......


Pity you were buggerising about so much, I had had a a large bottle of Mike's Mountain Ale I wanted you to sample!! trouble woulda been what to do with the body after you had fallen asleep............. All those dog kennels woulda come in handy then, bound to have been an empty one!!!

De-Ranged wrote:8) I'm gona disagree with you Moriarty after seeing this canvas and webbing version in action I'd have to say a "soft" plate does work
If you think about it the only difference is there will be a vector'ed pull
now before everyone starts knotting up there old plasma brent's design needs a bit of a tweek
Look at this (I know its its rough) but in the top pic as your pull comes on the front eye the connection piont will move more in line with the pull untill it reaches a straight line but in the process it has draged the pin around in an arc loosening it

Now if you were to connect each side in line like the bottom diagram your pull is on the vector and dosn't change ..CLIP..
Oh and an advantage of this over your plate, in scruby conditions add some lengths of plasma to tie it back to any shrubs that happen to fall in line and you have a multiple tieback very similar to how we tie'd block stumps when they were small or in shallow soil

.



There is one major fault with a canvas or rope ground anchor, and that is.......

you load all the stakes up in sequence, thereby loosening the leading ones probably to the point of uselessnessnessness.

Vectored pull is always bad, Reece, even in the bottom drawing, you are going to load one side more than the other.

Where this discussion is leading, is a recommend that each vehicle SHOULD carry ONE plate and 6 stakes (And 6 steaks for the BBQ) as part of the recovery gear. depending of course, as to terain expected.
Our projected 4 truck expedition will have huge trees and rocks for anchor points, but the central High country with its pumice soil is a good place, (like Waiouru), for such a combo. Lots of gutless scrub, and light friable soil. Alas, pore Y, our withers are wrung!

De-Ranged wrote:8) I'm gona disagree with you Moriarty after seeing this canvas and webbing version in action I'd have to say a "soft" plate does work
If you think about it the only difference is there will be a vector'ed pull
now before everyone starts knotting up there old plasma brent's design needs a bit of a tweek
Look at this (I know its its rough) but in the top pic as your pull comes on the front eye the connection piont will move more in line with the pull untill it reaches a straight line but in the process it has draged the pin around in an arc loosening it
(pic in message above)

Now if you were to connect each side in line like the bottom diagram your pull is on the vector and dosn't change oh and yorick this is similar to what the farmer was using (he was wider at the front so not inline on the vector) it would be better this way
Oh and an advantage of this over your plate, in scruby conditions add some lengths of plasma to tie it back to any shrubs that happen to fall in line and you have a multiple tieback very similar to how we tie'd block stumps when they were small or in shallow soil

Cheers Reece

Hey Reece,

Don't get me wrong, I still think the webbing and canvas anchor is a brilliant idea and I'll probably end up getting one made for many of the above reasons. However multiple tiebacks are still possible with the plate anchor. The thing I like about the plate is that the cockup threshold is higher. The thing can rattle about in the bottom your 4bee's deck for years and it's unlikely to get damaged enough to affect it's strength.

Getting back though to Brents idea of using Plasma rope and Macrame. It's not as outlandish as it seems at second glance. Macrame is about knots. So long as you have the stakes then all you need is the right Knot. The knot that climbers use in this type of circumstance is called the Alpine Butterfly. The advantage with the Alpine Butterfly is that it doesn't lessen the load rating on the rope and it's easy to undo (Though I doubt any of them ever hung a VX Cruiser off one, so I wouldn't go testing it on a nice new rope )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_butterfly_knot

So a cross pollination between Brent's idea and the Webbing & Canvas system could look something like this:


Knotted up out of a piece 2200 kg webbing I had lying about. That could theoretically, with 900 mm stakes in clay, hold about 2 tonne. As a hack up job it would great on the spot. There would be issues however, most of which would be eliminated by using a plate. While the critical item is the stake and how we couple them together into a single anchor is open to various interpretations, I'm with Moriarty on this one, especially in a group trip situation.

love talking with people who think.... right, you are right in that a vectored pull isn't good... but and this is the maths part (also applies to shock angles and etc ) so long as you are within 30 degree's of sepperation the side loading will be very minimal (got to do with the sin of the vector, at 15 deg from the pulling force you are still in the base of the curve)

you load all the stakes up in sequence, thereby loosening the leading ones

This is easily delt with using static highload webbing, (no stretch) and being sensible about setting them out, just make certain your webbing is tight and work your way from front to rear

you are going to load one side more than the other

How?? you mean you don't piont it in the right direction, well then your fancy plate will fail too... in fact if your plate is getting a side loading that couses it to fail it will fail sooner and easyer becouse it will twist all of the stakes bar one that it try's to pivot on where as the webbing design will line up the load down one leg naaa!

whats your next argument that you can cook on it and don't you dear tell me what I've got to carry....

Consider this Bill with this I don't need to carry a tree trunk protector and I gain 2 3m static strops come on your a tramper do you carry a tools for every job or a tool that can do every job...

oh and save that bottle I'll be heading over your way this summer just got to attack my lada first

Cheers Reece

nice yorick thats it... there is one issue with that and its something you'd have to be awear of is the knots will weaken your strap if you were to do it with knots then plasma would be the better option

its been a while since I did all the mechanics of climbing and I might be a bit out on some of the figers
Rope handles a knote better due to its round profile and you are looking at around a drop of 25-30% in the breaking strain at the knot
with tape its a bit nastyer it can be up to a 60% drop
lets look at the what you have there at 2200kg and a drop of 40% your down to 1400kg... that rating should be a SWL (safe working load) witch will be somewhere between 1/2 and a 1/5th of the breaking strain
just be aware some straps especially cheap ones list there breaking stain not a working load if in doubt you know the deal

oh and yorick that wasn't aimed at you it was more for somebody thinking of doing what you've just done

for the books I'm gona get one made with reinforced eyelets and all the drama's and I'll pull it out every time I'm told I should have a bbq plate

Cheers Reece

The few times i used the "Dead Man" or "Ground Anchor" was when we were either alone or you wanted to help stop the Wrecker being pulled backwards when the Spades werent enough to hold it.Or when you wanted to increase your pull or change the angle of it by attaching a pulley to the dead man.

If i was out with several other vehicles id use another vehicle as an anchor point to winch off ....why break a sweat when you can drive your anchor point close enough....its damn hard work hammering in 6 or so steel bars & just has hard pulling them out.

De-Ranged wrote::lol: nice yorick thats it... there is one issue with that and its something you'd have to be awear of is the knots will weaken your strap if you were to do it with knots then plasma would be the better option

Depends on the knots and how they're tied. The Alpine butterfly is a goody because it reduces the breaking strain by sweet FA. The factor you have to deal with when using tape is the tear factor. Thats caused by loading going more on one side of the tape that the other. Twisting or rolling tape or webbing does not materially effect it's loading capability. Plasma rope or for matter any rope that is designed to stretch majorly does NOT like knots because knots cause friction in stretchable material or they take all the stretch out by locking the rope at it's maximum stretch within the knot.

its been a while since I did all the mechanics of climbing and I might be a bit out on some of the figers
Rope handles a knot better due to its round profile and you are looking at around a drop of 25-30% in the breaking strain at the knot
with tape its a bit nastyer it can be up to a 60% drop

True if it was a reef knot or a half hitch in rope. However when using webbing the accepted strongest knot is called a "Tape Knot"
http://www.massey.ac.nz/~sglasgow//nzss/knots.htm
It's just an overhand knot or a Halfhitch. In tape it reduces the breaking strain the least. However do the same knot in rope and you sure as hell wouldn't catch me hanging off a cliff on it. It reduces the breaking strain by heaps. With Rope, the equivalent knot on Jute or hemp would be a fishermans knot, with a synthetic like polyprop or polyester, a double fishermans. Knots are a science and not all are created equal

lets look at the what you have there at 2200kg and a drop of 40% your down to 1400kg... that rating should be a SWL (safe working load) witch will be somewhere between 1/2 and a 1/5th of the breaking strain
just be aware some straps especially cheap ones list there breaking stain not a working load if in doubt you know the deal

That's actually rated strap that stuff, SWL 2200, and the Alpine Butterfly reduces the load capabilty sweet FA.

oh and yorick that wasn't aimed at you it was more for somebody thinking of doing what you've just done

However you are right in that I have seen people who think they know how to tie knots do a looped overhand knot and tell me it's an Alpine Butterfly. Like many things the Breaking Strain is at it's weakest at the Nut behind the wheel!

for the books I'm gona get one made with reinforced eyelets and all the drama's and I'll pull it out every time I'm told I should have a bbq plate

Cheers Reece

Heh, just bring the stakes.. er steaks er both

tallsam66 wrote:The few times i used the "Dead Man" or "Ground Anchor" was when we were either alone or you wanted to help stop the Wrecker being pulled backwards when the Spades werent enough to hold it.Or when you wanted to increase your pull or change the angle of it by attaching a pulley to the dead man.

If i was out with several other vehicles id use another vehicle as an anchor point to winch off ....why break a sweat when you can drive your anchor point close enough....its damn hard work hammering in 6 or so steel bars & just has hard pulling them out.

I have been known to walk a mile in Waiouru's Midsummer heat, to walk a D7 back to a job to be used as an anchor rather than use anchor plates!

De-Ranged wrote::D love talking with people who think....

Ditto!!

De-Ranged wrote:come on your a tramper

I BLOODY well am NOT!! I am now, and have always been a hunter! Trampa is a dirty word in our crew!!!

De-Ranged wrote:oh and save that bottle I'll be heading over your way this summer just got to attack my lada first

Cheers Reece

Always a bottle or two of Mountain Ale or Lager in the house for special occaisions and good mates!!

Moriarty wrote:

De-Ranged wrote::D love talking with people who think....

Ditto!!

Cheers Reece

Always a bottle or two of Mountain Ale or Lager in the house for special occaisions and good mates!![/quote]

I have to say I too am enjoying this discussion by the thinking men.
Have learnt quite a lot from this thread.
From the Wiki site comes this animated alpine butterfly link.
http://www.animatedknots.com/alpinebutterfly/

I have a similar ground anchor made from a large piece of plate and about 12 Toyota 5 speed mainshafts that I have forged points on one end and welded eyes near the hammer hitting ends. The eyes are large enough to get another of the Mainshafts or my smallish crowbar through them, allowing the anchoring mainshaft to be rotated. As there are splines on the mainshafts the rotation loosens the shaft from the ground.

I have a large shackel interconnected with a smaller one, yes both rated Jerry, that allows me to jack these mainshafts out using my Hi-Lift.

Keep up the informed discussions guys, this is what this forum is all about for me.

The plate and pins idea is a very good one, but how does it measure up against other anchors in relation to the amount of differant terrain you can use it? Would it work in shingle? I need something that can be used in river beds and mud and yea pretty much everywhere! Maby im dreaming...

my dead man anchour winch on it 4 times once backwards down hill

The more I think about this idea, the less likely I am to implement it.

Why, I hear you ask?

Well, I am not equipped with a winch, and am (at this moment) unlikely to have one. Therefore a ground anchor like this would be superfluous.

If I do go out, where a winch would/will available, there will be in all probability, four trucks, three with winches.

The anchor plate is really designed for a solo truck, WITH A WINCH, in difficulties.

This is not to say, that the plate is not a damned good idea, it is. I can see definite advantages, and could have used one many moons ago with a '56 Chev stuck in a truly awkward place!! Lots of digging, lots of axe work, lots of sweat, thank gawd I was a young feller.