When you say bang for buck, I see the Prado's are relatively cheap compared to a hilux of the same year/milage, and I would have thought the rear coil end on the Prado would have superior articulation to a hilux (unless $$$ are spent?), and perhaps the same for the front unless you do as Richard has done? Richard, how is the Safari setup you run different to the Prado, is it a better setup, and can the Prado run the same setup? Sorry for the O/T, just really interesting to see how well the lwb do go, as when I got into the sport, I was always under the impression that swb was superior.
Cheers
I went for the Nissan for a couple of reasons. I actually believe Range rover is best.
The Nissans and Range rovers have a revolving end on the Radius Rods which I believes gives more flex. The radius rods on the prado have parallel bushes which I believe resticts movement. Look at any club ramp test and the Range rovers and nissans are on top as standard trucks.
The Radius rod behind the diff on a prado drops lower than the diff and gets hung up on boulders or logs where a Nissan goes level with the top of the diff. The Nissan also has 6inch coils as opposed to the prado with 5 inch meaning there is a lot more spring for travel and articulation.
It is still no where as good as Rokhound with the 3 link system but I dont need that for what I do.
Richard you will have to have a look under a lifted wrangler on a ramp, they only have short arms and parallel bushes but the arms are made of spring steel and they twist and flex a disturbing amount! and this allows them to ramp very well but I have not seen it translate to type of driving we do down here as well as the ramp results would suggest but they are still very capable.
One of the tricks Rok was looking at was having an airbag system to help push the lower wheel down (weight transfer) above each arm to get a similar effect to the spring you have in the back of your ute, had you thought about something similar for the front before going coils or would you discount it because of road manners and coil ride?
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Steve_t647 wrote:Richard you will have to have a look under a lifted wrangler on a ramp, they only have short arms and parallel bushes but the arms are made of spring steel and they twist and flex a disturbing amount! and this allows them to ramp very well but I have not seen it translate to type of driving we do down here as well as the ramp results would suggest but they are still very capable.
One of the tricks Rok was looking at was having an airbag system to help push the lower wheel down (weight transfer) above each arm to get a similar effect to the spring you have in the back of your ute, had you thought about something similar for the front before going coils or would you discount it because of road manners and coil ride?
Hi steve Just before Keith stuffed his jeep at Denniston he was demonstrating his articulation which is miles better than what I have. He still doesn't have ramp over as shown in the video of the Tailings track. On that track he broke his drag link and then wrecked a shockabsorber. So the articulation didn't mean much at the end of day.
I think too much emphasis is put on articulation. The Rock guys like Rokhound and Chopper need it , but people doing ordinary 4x4 dont need excess articulation if they have lockers.
The simple truth is you can't have extreme articulation and good on road handling. I go for the compromise.
I am really happy with the nissan coils now. Before the last trip I was lifting the left front wheel. Since then I have cut the panhard rod and twisted it so the bushes have no stress half way through there movement, and it is working really good now. I never looked at the airbag system at all and don't know much about it.
Bulletproof wrote: I think too much emphasis is put on articulation ...people doing ordinary 4x4 dont need excess articulation if they have lockers.
Cheers Richard
I think the caveat here is "ordinary". As one who drives a highly modified beastie, I don't think lockers are a solution in themselves, and the importance of sufficient articulation to maximise one's stability/grip on terrafirma cannot be understated. Ideally one wants lockers + great articulation. Having driven all of Tailings at Easter 2008 (with my five year old daughter as co-pilot at all times) I know for a fact that it was not my lockers alone that made this a safe and comfortable trip; rather, the combination of engine, tyres, diff clearances, lockers, crawler box, big articulation, and trail established prior knowledge of my vehicles limits.
Bulletproof wrote: I think too much emphasis is put on articulation ...people doing ordinary 4x4 dont need excess articulation if they have lockers.
Cheers Richard
I think the caveat here is "ordinary". As one who drives a highly modified beastie, I don't think lockers are a solution in themselves, and the importance of sufficient articulation to maximise one's stability/grip on terrafirma cannot be understated. Ideally one wants lockers + great articulation. Having driven all of Tailings at Easter 2008 (with my five year old daughter as co-pilot at all times) I know for a fact that it was not my lockers alone that made this a safe and comfortable trip; rather, the combination of engine, tyres, diff clearances, lockers, crawler box, big articulation, and trail established prior knowledge of my vehicles limits.
I agree completely with what say. When I made the comment excess articulation I was talking about the 800-1100 range that some have which generally makes a truck unstable on the road
I still have better than average with 600+mm and as you say all those other things are important as well.
This video from 2005 shows the point I was making about articulation and lockers
Pat Pretty in the rocky has average articulation and lockers. Sav in the jeep doesn't believe in lockers and puts emphasis on articulation. This month on the ramp test he had the best aticulation in Nelson .
Cheers Richard
Last edited by Bulletproof on Fri May 04, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That is actually a classic example of a well thought out and modded rig (the rocky) exercising tread lightly philosophy. Most of us when we were first starting off, used to love the go in hard approach and have shit flying everywhere. As you skill grows with your truck modifications, you should be able to eliminate this in 8 out of 10 cases. Newbies might not get it, but experienced wheelers will look at how easy you just made it look when all the others were making a hell mess. And this is exactly why I say, "you should grow into 4wding along with your truck". If you just buy a hell wagon, IMHO I believe you are more likely to do damage to the environment than you need to, because you don't quite get that making it look real easy is not the same thing as it being really easy!
Now the locker versus artic thing. Harder wheeling, you need both, end of story. But it is up to you how much articulation you wish to have. You have to weigh up the type of terrain you cover, road handling, and ride. My truck has masses of artic, (hasn't been beaten yet in the rocks in NZ) but it can't be driven over 40kph. This is why I am designing and building a new rig that is another step on from what i have.
Good topic guys
Ugly is a state of mind..... and the state of my truck!
we also dont see the jeep approach the hole, the clip starts when the jeep is already stationary, but we see the rocky come through with a nice steady amount of momentum... did the jeep do the same?
and the locker vs artic debate... wouldnt lockers be better in terrain like the last clip, and artic better in firmer but rock or log covered terrain?
on the other side sav is one of few that have driven up the hill out of the creek at the Tailings as you know at most events he is always near the top also with out lockers he dose not do as much damage to the truck
the vid dose show how lockers can be a really good advantage
toysuzi:(SJ413) 3Y E surf engnie, 6" coil kit (RRO). toy diffs (4.88 R&P) & toy hilux box and t-case.
ifs toy power steering, 6" Bushwacker fender flares (RRO). ect
Bulletproof wrote:Andrew Satherly in the Jeep is a very good driver and used to do trialing. He now enters the winch challenges and wins in the clubman class.
Not having Lockers may not wreck the truck but does wreck the enviroment
Cheers Richard
Even the most expreienced drivers make errors from time to time, to me thats what it looks like what has happened in that clip.
I agree with you about the lockers, my truck has twin lockers and pleanty of artic as far as i see it good combination of both is what suits my truck and what i do with it. This is just another one of those pointless discussions like the lwb and swb. Do what suits you, your truck and waht you use it for best.
toysuzi wrote:also with out lockers he dose not do as much damage to the truck
When I first fitted lockers in 1996, Every person said you will only break the truck. I dont believe this to be true.
With lockers you can generally walk through where others have to charge and smash diffs or CVs when the spinning wheel hits the ground. I run 4.5 diffs and have never broken one with the lockers. Rokhound is right in saying you have to grow with your truck. When I first fitted the lockers I thought I was invincible and you couldn't be stopped just by putting the lockers in. I ended up breaking about 3 CVs through my own stupidity. With experience you learn where and when to use them and now I very rarely do damage and have always been able to drive home.
I believe with lockers you do a lot less damage to the truck and the enviroment
Im with you on this one, lockers first. Look at what a dirty old 60 series crusier can do with lockers. Wheels on the ground (be it 2) with drive is always better then having a wheel(s) floating around spinning.
Another comparison ,This time Station Creek 2004 on the way to lake Daniels.
Over the years lots of people say to me. The only reason you got through is because you were first. I used to take them seriously and drive back and do it again to show how easy it is. But this only pisses others off so I don't do it any more. Even on Als trip to Ikamatua last month I was told the same thing .
Here is a Canterbury club trip and probably the last time I did it.
Why ?
Richard
Last edited by Bulletproof on Fri May 04, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cool__bananas wrote:the other hilux didnt get it because he didnt have a front locker
i reckon it was because the rangie and the other hiluxs approach angles werent as great. As they came up to it they hit the bacnk and lost momentum. Also the rangies tyres sucked
turoa wrote:i reckon it was because the rangie and the other hiluxs approach angles werent as great. As they came up to it they hit the bacnk and lost momentum. Also the rangies tyres sucked
the rangie did a good impression of a dozer tho
also the suspension on the two hiluxs reacted totally different, bulletproofs absorbed a lot more of the impact and just drove through, the 2nd hilux bounced hard enough to lift both wheels off the ground... dosnt matter how good a locker or the artic is, if both wheels are off the ground it aint gripping sfa...
the rangie had a shit approach angle but had a front locker, the hilux had no locker and a piss pore approach angle thats why they did not get up the bank. each rig has there own good and bad points and it down to personal prference on how you want to set up your rig's also as richard said its also down to driveing style. After seeing richards rig in action it's a great rig but it's not my first choise of wheel base as I would rather have the wheel base of the surf but in saying that richard has found what works for him and that's all that matters. other people like short or mwb thats there choise but it's what they have found works for them . but if you ask me I would have the mwb any day as its a good comprise and it's great for the type of wheeling I do. plus longs and lockers also help but in my opinion they are a luxury but a farken cool luxury well thats my 2c worth
Chopper01 wrote:the rangie had a shit approach angle but had a front locker, the hilux had no locker and a piss pore approach angle thats why they did not get up the bank. each rig has there own good and bad points and it down to personal prference on how you want to set up your rig's also as richard said its also down to driveing style. After seeing richards rig in action it's a great rig but it's not my first choise of wheel base as I would rather have the wheel base of the surf but in saying that richard has found what works for him and that's all that matters. other people like short or mwb thats there choise but it's what they have found works for them . but if you ask me I would have the mwb any day as its a good comprise and it's great for the type of wheeling I do. plus longs and lockers also help but in my opinion they are a luxury but a farken cool luxury well thats my 2c worth
Bulletproof wrote:Over the years lots of people say to me. The only reason you got through is because you were first. I used to take them seriously and drive back and do it again to show how easy it is. But this only pisses others off so I don't do it any more. Even on Als trip to Ikamatua last month I was told the same thing
Chopper01 wrote:the rangie had a shit approach angle but had a front locker, the hilux had no locker and a piss pore approach angle thats why they did not get up the bank. each rig has there own good and bad points and it down to personal prference on how you want to set up your rig's also as richard said its also down to driveing style. After seeing richards rig in action it's a great rig but it's not my first choise of wheel base as I would rather have the wheel base of the surf but in saying that richard has found what works for him and that's all that matters. other people like short or mwb thats there choise but it's what they have found works for them . but if you ask me I would have the mwb any day as its a good comprise and it's great for the type of wheeling I do. plus longs and lockers also help but in my opinion they are a luxury but a farken cool luxury well thats my 2c worth
cheers chopper
how much longer is a hilux compared to a surf?
about a foot longer in the wheel base . if you look under the hilux the rear drive shaft is in two bits as the surf only has one short drive shaft. this is because the hilux has to be longer to allow for the deck . I found this out when I when to fit a hilux doubble cab to a surf chassie there is not a shit show it was going to fit.
Chopper01 wrote:the rangie had a shit approach angle but had a front locker, the hilux had no locker and a piss pore approach angle thats why they did not get up the bank. each rig has there own good and bad points and it down to personal prference on how you want to set up your rig's also as richard said its also down to driveing style. After seeing richards rig in action it's a great rig but it's not my first choise of wheel base as I would rather have the wheel base of the surf but in saying that richard has found what works for him and that's all that matters. other people like short or mwb thats there choise but it's what they have found works for them . but if you ask me I would have the mwb any day as its a good comprise and it's great for the type of wheeling I do. plus longs and lockers also help but in my opinion they are a luxury but a farken cool luxury well thats my 2c worth
cheers chopper
how much longer is a hilux compared to a surf?
about a foot longer in the wheel base . if you look under the hilux the rear drive shaft is in two bits as the surf only has one short drive shaft. this is because the hilux has to be longer to allow for the deck . I found this out when I when to fit a hilux doubble cab to a surf chassie there is not a shit show it was going to fit.
ahhh, lol, i had always assumed they were the same length... but now when i think about it its kind of obvious.
swampa wrote:give me the last one any day, chuck on some bigger tyres and away we go
Is it just the noise that gives you a boner or is there something i'm missing ? Hosehustler peddled it ,, kept traction and drove it easy ,, BP did the same but went a bit harder than he needed to.. That V8 thing sure made a lot of noise but noise don't get any traction..Yeah , bigger tyres would have helped the V8, but driver skill is cheeper.
swampa wrote:give me the last one any day, chuck on some bigger tyres and away we go
Is it just the noise that gives you a boner or is there something i'm missing ? Hosehustler peddled it ,, kept traction and drove it easy ,, BP did the same but went a bit harder than he needed to.. That V8 thing sure made a lot of noise but noise don't get any traction..Yeah , bigger tyres would have helped the V8, but driver skill is cheeper.
it certainly sounded the part....
looked like the tyres wernt clearing either.... 1st time i looked at the clip i thought they were all terrains...
and this allows them to ramp very well but I have not seen it translate to type of driving we do down here as well as the ramp results would suggest but they are still very capable.
