Winch Challenge Classes

[muddy]

This whole tyre size debate seems to me to have lost sight of the overall goal. What I think we all want is a standard which allows a level playing field for competition, and to promote and increase participation in Winch Challenge events.

For that purpose, the actual tyre size doesn't matter - it just needs to have an agreed "standard". I haven't yet read a convincing argument for increasing that limit. Certainly a suggestion that a limit should be increased because someone has a preferred tyre which is too big is nonsense. So it goes to 37in. Then someone else will have another tyre "only" 37.5in so will want the limit increased to 38in. And so on...

In fact, I think there are strong arguments for reducing the limit to 35in. Call it PC nonsense if you want - although it is the new reality - but there is a real need to reduce and limit the impact of our activities on the environment. That means keeping the depth of ruts as small as possible. Increasing participation means keeping costs down. Cost of tyres is only a small part of that - running bigger tyres requires a lot of modification in other areas - lifts, gearing, etc. But at around 33-35in, it is about the limit for most trucks before serious money needs to be spent. And as an organiser - WE WILL NOT HAVE AN EVENT IN MARLBOROUGH WITH LARGER TYRES! That is due to both limitations imposed by the landowner, and an overwhelming desire by our club membership (myself included) to preserve our very good reputation for respecting the properties we have access to.

Remember also - we are talking about WINCH CHALLENGE events. The tracks are not intended to be driveable! Bigger tyres will just mean obstacles need to be harder / steeper / higher, and the chances of a rollover, and the consequences in terms of damage and injury will be increased.

[darinz]

So it goes to 37in. Then someone else will have another tyre "only" 37.5in so will want the limit increased to 38in. And so on...

I don't see the issue. If the general public are using bigger tyres then what is the problem? Things change. These tyres are available and people are using them. More and more people will use them and so the problem of ruts getting deeper is going to happen whether our rules allow them or not. To say that we keep out rule at the current 36.5 will stop ruts getting any deeper isn't true. A few years ago a setup truck had 33MT's now the same level would have 35 Simex and more and more we are seeing 37's as well. We are supposed to be inovative and pushing the limits of what 4x4 can achieve, so we should be reviewing our rules. How long ago was it that all you could get was a 700x16.

The point I have made is that the tyres available have changed since the rule was set. The Hummer has caused there to be a whole new range of tyres avaiable in 37". And some of these tyres fit our current rule, some don't and some do once partly worn. So we need to discuss the various option and decide what to do. I think everyone admits that for NZ condition the Simex ET will be hard if not impossible to beat so I'd say most will stay with that reguardless of what the rule is. Most people are using tyres that are 1" smaller than the limit so to say everyone will then go to 37" is not really looking at from a realistic point of view.

[shortylux]

True, the majority of compeditors are running an inch below the limit. Why do we spose this is? if it were the mere case of only a few hundred dollars to get the extra inch, wouldn't most do it? after all it would be a comparativley cheap comp upgrade. A 1/2 inch extra clearence all round for only a $175? (4wdbits prices). I would do it.
But wait, there is more.
It lifts my center of gravity 1/2 an inch.
I need to move to a higher (weaker) diff ratio. or perhaps i could just turbo or super charge my motor.
I probably will need to alter my suspension lift (maybe steering also). chances are I will need to chop some body or move an axle.
Speaking of axles, my cvs may not be up to the larger loads caused by my larger heavier tyres (even with out the compensating power upgrade)
I may need a wider track also to give me the same steering lock and compensate for my lifted COG.
Hmmm, my bargin upgrade don't sound so cheap now.

But heck, if you've got the money to run 36.5s (or 37s) go for it! but dont tell me its only a cheap upgrade. like others have said, it makes it more of a money game.

I guess another reason that (northisland) compeditors run 35s is that they can then access DOC land with out having to change tyres.

I hate the fact that the PC argument comes in to play here, but it does.

If there is to be a 37inch rule change, lets introduce yet another class. lets have club mans, 35s, and bigboys. (que Tui add)

I guess I'm just jelous, but 37s seem to be unneeded.

Arron.

[TJ]

Arron, the problem is you are being logical. You are not supposed to think logically or rationally here. From all I have read so far, people have already made up their minds and are just looking for support.

[mike21]

well put tj

[Madaz]

Could someone post up a pole that everyone could vote on?

Cheers

[PeterVahry]

Speaking of thinking logically, so much passion and effort goes into debate over tyre size and yet I wonder if the 4x4 world at large actually realises that the options for using those tyres in any form on DOC land, are up for grabs.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10669

The Waikato CMS is only one of many... check http://www.nzfwda.org.nz for the latest list.

If you don't get involved then private land will be the only option for 4x4 recreation.

Now you can continue .....

[monstr]

First of let me say that i drive a Nissan .Now can someone please tell me why bigger is always better this argument seems to be driven by Nissan owners trying to get the same diff clearance as a Hilux or Zuk if diff clearance is not the underlying issue and new tread patterns is why not drop down a size"yea right" Surely if i fit 37s then the guy down the road will fit them to his Hilux and were back to square one apart from pissing of the club guys ,DOC and many others and giving the anti 4wd lot more ammo.Then in a years time we ll all be running 37s and it will start again but this time it will be 39s and here we go again.In a time where property are getting few and far between that we can enjoy our sport why dont we competition guys stand up and say enoughs enough and leave the tyre size as it is ..My thoughts

[shortylux]

TJ, wicked! that made me laugh, cheers Dude.

Peter. Thankyou for raising my awareness off a far more important issue. I hope every one who has had time to add their thoughts to this rules debate also has the time to send the email you suggested. Good work mate. Thankyou.

Monstr. I agree. I personally would be happy to say 35s are it (but then my 35 simex wont fit through a 35 gauge probably).

[Didymo]

All this debate about tyre size for the "rules" cracks me up. Whilst debate is healthy shouldn't it be directive and lead to an end result in the appropriate forum. What is going to be the end result of all this debate, rules aren't going to be implemented because of some pissing and moaning on a website forum.

Shouldn't the debate be about how we are going to get the North & South together in a true National Series, a true National Competition. Shouldn't the question be, how we can develop the sport of 4x4 Winch Challenges, how we can maintain sustainable growth. Once we can get together in this type of forum then the "Rules" can be debated, negotiated & implemented by those who want to stand up and be counted, not the gunnas!!!!!!!

Rules are very important for the control and fairness of any sport, but first steps, first. Lets become united, get over whatever has gone before and make this thing happen, then we will have something really to debate about??????????????

Bruce Perry
President
Mainland Winch Challenges

[haynzy]

well put didymo, seems as always people are all to keen push for change to suit there own benifit rather than looking at the bigger picture, we need more events in the north island and not just upper north island events, just a shame theres that big puddle between us and you other wise id be down with my baby 33in tyres givin it death

[monstr]

You right we do need more events in the North Island ,But it keeps coming back to the same thing ,for it to happen more people need to get off their butts and get involved in organizing one ,Over the past 5 years or so that i have been involved in winch challenges it is left up to the same people time and time again .I get really pissed of when i hear people winge that there is nothing happening .all it needs is for 1 or 2 people to step forward with a plan and make it happen..
"please note these comments are not directed at any one in particular"

[PeterVahry]

As you well know Steve, that's why we (you included) set up 4x4 Challenges NZ... to provide support for people who wanted to organise events, through helping with budget info, safety plans, rules etc. etc and right through to a pool of radios and stop watches.

What we can not always do is find the land, as that's usually where local knowledge comes in. If people were to look at things that have been planned, they would see that one concept put forward by 4x4 Challenge competitor members was to levy each event a small amount so that there was money available to send experienced stage designers to assist layout work and monitor safety provisions of events.

This is still an option for the future but the other services are available to assist people with an interest in running a winch challenge.

[Ralfie]

Over the past 5 years or so that i have been involved in winch challenges it is left up to the same people time and time again .I get really pissed of when i hear people winge that there is nothing happening .all it needs is for 1 or 2 people to step forward with a plan and make it happen..

The preception down here is that 4x4 challenges IS the organising body and wants to control all events. No wonder others won't step forward cause they will probably be trodden on.

All this debate about tyre size for the "rules" cracks me up. Whilst debate is healthy shouldn't it be directive and lead to an end result in the appropriate forum. What is going to be the end result of all this debate, rules aren't going to be implemented because of some pissing and moaning on a website forum.

Too true.
As for the tyre debate why the need for bigger tyres? After all its a winch challenge not a driving challenge so the object should be on the recovery, not the ability to drive over bigger obstacles with bigger tyres. Dare I suggest that all winch challenges and vehicles be limited to the more acceptable tyre size of 33's.
Unless some one makes a stand and says that's it, no more regardless what size tyre companys produce, it will be an extra half inch every year or so.

[PeterVahry]

Ahh, perception... what a great pile of facts that is!

Perhaps, if instead of imagining what might happen, had those people "down there" actually spoken to 4x4 Challenges, we might have already had a functional true national series and a spread of events. So much valuable time is spent re-inventing things that actually work just because they were from somewhere else.

The option is still there of course, it just means that someone has to pluck up the courage and find out for themselves.

You could always ask people like Darin how his last Whangarei challenge would have gone without 4x4 Challenge volunteers on the day to assist with scoring etc?

[terranonut]

alsome posts i can't believe that the north and south island can't work together either maybe we should be looking at a format like ORANZ run ? that would keep the travelling costs down until the big final at end of each season which could be alternated year by year between north and south island.

But we all have to remember that it take ORANZ along time to sort there stuff out to, considering winch challanges are relatively young sport.

But first we would all have to adopt one set of practicle safety based rules, let the debate begin ! i do believe what 4x4 challanges have come up with rules wise is very good base to build upon.

[GQTROL]

Making assumptions is the mother of all f*ck-ups Ralfie. Never, ever has 4x4Challenges said it wanted to "control all events". Time and time again they have offered their advice, experience, skill, knowledge and equipment to event organisers. They have been at pains to make themselves available to event organisers, assisting with tracking setting advice, marshalling and generally "mucking in" to help where they can.

Now Monstr has put his money where his mouth is and co-ordinating an event. He has been involved in events for a while, competed for the last 3-4 yrs and once again he's giving back to the sport by putting on an event. Credit to Steve for doing so.

[Ralfie]

GQTROL, your comments are more emotional than factual, indicating that the subject has touched a nerve or even has an ounce of truth in the comments.
not being a member of 4x4 challenges I don't know what goes on at your meetings but it does seem to the outsider that its just a few people that want input into all events and therefore slowly but surely control all events in NZ.
Maybe 4x4 challenges needs to look at how they approach others with their 'offers' for assistance.

[TJ]

GQTROL, your comments are more emotional than factual, indicating that the subject has touched a nerve or even has an ounce of truth in the comments.
not being a member of 4x4 challenges I don't know what goes on at your meetings but it does seem to the outsider that its just a few people that want input into all events and therefore slowly but surely control all events in NZ.
Maybe 4x4 challenges needs to look at how they approach others with their 'offers' for assistance.

few people = control all events = national governing body

If I didn't know any better that almost sounds like the beginning of a national body (just like for any other motor sport or non-motorised sport)!

As I said before, I am not competing at this stage, but have a huge interest in the health of this mode of fun in NZ. I am more than happy to sit down with people and work out the details, with only one condition = no emotional baggage allowed. You want to move forward, leave the past behind.

[GQTROL]

GQTROL, your comments are more emotional than factual, indicating that the subject has touched a nerve or even has an ounce of truth in the comments.
not being a member of 4x4 challenges I don't know what goes on at your meetings but it does seem to the outsider that its just a few people that want input into all events and therefore slowly but surely control all events in NZ.
Maybe 4x4 challenges needs to look at how they approach others with their 'offers' for assistance.

Not so Ralfie. 4x4Challenges IS NOT the organising body and DOES NOT want to control all events. They have offered to administer a series, they have offered a set of rules...rules which have been developed by organisers and competitors alike over many years. It is fact that they have offered their services, time and equipment to organisers. It is fact that they have attended events and lent a hand track-setting, marshalling, scoring etc. What part of that can be misconstrued into "just a few people that want input into all events and therefore slowly but surely control all events in NZ" as you put it?

You have been told emphatically that your "perceptions" are NOT what 4x4Challenges are about. 4x4Challenges offered to attend the meeting where the SI series was initiated to provide some background / history on the development of the current rules, to offer their assistance, to make it known the availability of their resources. They were told their presence at the meeting would cause a walk-out by other attendees and elected not to attend on that basis. So what more could 4x4Challenges possibly have done to help?

[TJ]

GQTROL, your comments are more emotional than factual, indicating that the subject has touched a nerve or even has an ounce of truth in the comments.
not being a member of 4x4 challenges I don't know what goes on at your meetings but it does seem to the outsider that its just a few people that want input into all events and therefore slowly but surely control all events in NZ.
Maybe 4x4 challenges needs to look at how they approach others with their 'offers' for assistance.

few people = control all events = national governing body

If I didn't know any better that almost sounds like the beginning of a national body (just like for any other motor sport or non-motorised sport)!

As I said before, I am not competing at this stage, but have a huge interest in the health of this mode of fun in NZ. I am more than happy to sit down with people and work out the details, with only one condition = no emotional baggage allowed. You want to move forward, leave the past behind.

Just re-reading my post, needs a little clarification here. I am in favour of a national governing body and 4x4 Challenges provides a good platform to build it. Every sport that becomes professional needs a central governing body for fairness in competitions or else every organiser will have different rules (i.e. not possible for competitors to compete in many competitions without major modifications).

[Rocktruck]

GQTROL you have posted in this thread that "They were told their presence at the meeting would cause a walk-out by other attendees and elected not to attend on that basis. So what more could 4x4Challenges possibly have done to help?"

I was one of the attendees at this meeting and I certainly would not have walked out and I am curious to know where this has come from? It is not the first time this comment has popped up in various threads.

I believe we can all learn a lot from each other and especially whilst the sport is in its early stages in the mainland.

[GQTROL]

GQTROL you have posted in this thread that "They were told their presence at the meeting would cause a walk-out by other attendees and elected not to attend on that basis. So what more could 4x4Challenges possibly have done to help?"

I was one of the attendees at this meeting and I certainly would not have walked out and I am curious to know where this has come from? It is not the first time this comment has popped up in various threads.

I believe we can all learn a lot from each other and especially whilst the sport is in its early stages in the mainland.

Hey Rocktruck,
Prior to the meeting of 2nd Feb this year, a conversation took place between a 4x4Challenges representative and an individual involved in the forthcoming South Island series. When the 4x4Challenges rep offered someone to attend and give some background etc, that was the response they received. Now of course it was Mainland Winch Challenge Inc's perogative to turn the offer down , it is their show after-all, but I do take exception when (in this case) someone suggests that 4x4Challenges motives are not sincere.

I've kept the description of the people involved delibrately vague. Peter V knows who was involved and will enlighten you further if he sees fit. I'm not about to point the finger at someone who may not readily access this site and be able to give their view.

I agree entirely that we can all learn alot from each other, similarly as we have between NZ and Aussie in the past. There is no doubt there are plenty of people who are passionate about the sport and have its best interests at heart.....long may it continue.

[PeterVahry]

4x4 Challenges NZ is a club http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz that is affiliated to the NZFWDA. The NZFWDA has recognised 4x4 Challenges NZ as the sanctioning body for winch challenge events. There is a difference between organising and sanctioning. The idea of the role of sanctioning is to maintain safety standards in the first instance and that of course is related directly to the rules that events run under. It can also involve the way the competition stages are set. In the main, stage setting has been well done by organisers but again there is a pool of experience from 4x4 Challenges NZ available to review the risks and in many cases offer suggestions for possible changes to enhance both the contest and safety. Experience is a valuable commodity.

Another facility that was developed, was a computer based scoring system. The original was the Australian system brought over for the inaugural 2000 challenge. That was rewritten professionally for subsequent events hosted by the Auckland 4WD Club and it has been the intention of 4x4 Challenges NZ to further refine and simplify the system to provide a consistent basis for a proper national series. That investment in a rewrite is on hold until things settle a bit more.

NZFWDA clubs have the benefit of a rather useful insurance package to protect them in a variety of ways and when a club is directly involved in hosting an event, the insurance can be applied. The NZFWDA is managing its risk by encouraging member organisers to work with 4x4 Challenges NZ.

While recognised as the sanctioning body for events within the NZFWDA umbrella, there is still interest within 4x4 Challenges NZ to also organise occasional events itself. That allows ideas to be tested and continued experience gained.

Of course it is not just the insurance that is being risk managed, but the overall image of 4x4 recreation. We already see newspaper headlines blaming 4x4's for nearly everything and the field day they would have with a death during a winch challenge event, would take a lot of countering.

4x4 Challenges NZ is open to membership and has elections for officers.

[Rocktruck]

GQTROL

I am sorry that happened , with this happening prior to the meeting it is not the Mainland Winch Challenges Inc. that have turned down the offer but more a case of an individual or individuals.

[GQTROL]

Rock,
You're right. I believe the original statement was made by an individual, and was not necessarily the view of the organisation....but it is somewhat disheartening to hear all the same.

[Didymo]

All these comments back and forward are just covering old ground, lets MOVE FORWARD!!

Peter V & his team and anybody else who wishes to be involved are invited by us at Mainland Challenges to get together and make this sport what we all what it to be.

Get over it and don't bring any pre-conceived thoughts about individuals, have an open mind and be willing to compromise.

The invitation is there NOW, take it or step aside and watch!!


Bruce Perry