Norwest Club class winch challenge

[wopass]

if that gets a good hit in the a pillar with the rear stays like that it will fold
aside from the roof and the main hoop i see no trangulation that will prevent it
it it was me would

cut off the rear bars and put stright ones on it and pyt 2 diagonal bars on it
a diagonal bar ther the roof to the a pillar same in the roof to main hoop seions ... fitt a bar abotu 100mm long in there .. notch both ends

also run a link from the a pilla to the front bar....well just behind it

kinda like that

just a opinon mate not ring to knock anything ive built a fe cages over the years and had them homologated .. also i guess it not ment to save you AT 200+ km a hour just ment to take the slow rolover type accident so im prolly just spamming

The NZFWDA rules are the least suitable as it is designed for low speed repetitive rollovers not hig speed impact which is what our cages are for

sorry mate was just doing reasurch while posting

on a side note
what a shit day

can i take option D please... HAS taken big hits and is still strait as. you ever seen a rally truck roll bowl and asshole down a hill? thats some big hits on the cage.

as for the designed for high speed hits not slow speed hits i dont go fast and i would rather be inside my cage than a piss arse exo like most have (not poking anyone there just ranting ) and that cage in the picture is just fkn rediculous!! how the fkn hell are you spose to use that for carting fence posts and hay bales and chilly bins and tents and everything else ? theres not even anywhere to put a box of beer!!

and yea mate i aggree with the shit day bit to, finish night shift and get 3 hours sleep isnt good for the thinking cap or the mood

and i will do what i have to do to keep the people who come up with these rules happy so that i can race and not have any problems but if anyone says that cage is not strong enough ill have a hissy fit

[vvega]

lol no worries mate as i said all the cages ive ever done have to keep you alive when it all goes wrong at 200+ km/h and hitting a tree so im a bit new to this side iof the engineering
rolling down a hill is arse but its still not much copmpared to doinging it at a ungodly speed after bouncing off o concrete wall


if you need a hand give me a yell .. can weld/machine/hydraulics/build aircraft/get cheap steel etc

wayne

[wopass]

lol no worries mate as i said all the cages ive ever done have to keep you alive when it all goes wrong at 200+ km/h and hitting a tree so im a bit new to this side iof the engineering
rolling down a hill is arse but its still not much copmpared to doinging it at a ungodly speed after bouncing off o concrete wall


if you need a hand give me a yell .. can weld/machine/hydraulics/build aircraft/get cheap steel etc

wayne

sweet as man, all good. yea hitting concrete at 200 is a bit different but similar rules apply, i have had a bit of a shag around with a few bits of pipe cut offs and i think that if i put a couple of bars from the top of the main hoop near centre out to the side about 2/3rds the way up it will brace well and still leave me with good deck space and axcess in the rear tray so will look at that while im in the process of welding in bits and pieces.

will keep you in mind tho as i need a good man to get cheap steel off and will need some at some stage when i get to the point where i need to make rear end for the missile. where do you work ? im at Huntly Power station as a fritter/turbine maintenance guru not so much guru tho

and im still looking good to be able to make it to the comp so pencil me in steve but just pencil at this stage as i have a fair bit to do still

[vvega]

im in hamilton @complete engineering and hydraulics
i know some stuff and ive seen a few things

[darinz]

I bet they wont like your rear stays, cause of the bend at the top.
Still fits in the nzfwda rules though.

I wouldn't use it due to the back stays BUT if it complies with NZFWDA rules then it is acceptable.
There is a huge difference between a cage build from rollcage tube and one built from steam pipe (ie ORANZ, MANZ etc vs NZFWDA) so when you have massive overkill in steel size thent he design can be pretty bad and still be really strong. I build mine out of rollcage tube so you have to be particular about design or they aren't very strong.
That's why you have to provide the spec it is built to and the spec of the steel it is built out of.

Now all I have to do is finish off my own cage. It complies with the rules but the reality is it needs more added to it and that is the other thing to think about. Being acceptable is not the same as being safe. What is important; complying with the rules or protecting you life?!

[DieselBoy]

Will these satisfy the requirement for doors??





This threads good value, its like pre-scruitineering and winch challenge school all in one




Could we run ply wood doors in club class??

[monstr]

Yep they look fine to me ,Cheers

[darinz]

Will these satisfy the requirement for doors??





This threads good value, its like pre-scruitineering and winch challenge school all in one




Could we run ply wood doors in club class??

These doors will only comply if they are polished.

There is a truck that run's plywood cored doors but they are covered in fibreglass to add to the strength. These have been certified and so deemed acceptable. The interpretation has been that plain plywood doors are not strong enough. To use them you would have to prove they comply and that would require an engineer to LVVTA certify them for road use.

[vvega]

no sharp bits ?

[DieselBoy]

Will these satisfy the requirement for doors??





This threads good value, its like pre-scruitineering and winch challenge school all in one




Could we run ply wood doors in club class??

These doors will only comply if they are polished.

There is a truck that run's plywood cored doors but they are covered in fibreglass to add to the strength. These have been certified and so deemed acceptable. The interpretation has been that plain plywood doors are not strong enough. To use them you would have to prove they comply and that would require an engineer to LVVTA certify them for road use.

I wonder if these sort of things would be good subjects to debate in the club class rules thread you guys started a while back.

Will start that thread back up with some queries and more of my nieve views and opinions

[LOLYF]

Bugger, this event clashes with the Nrth shore round of the Laurie Sanson Series

Just to let you know we have moved the S4W round of the Laurie Sanson to the 22nd of march, We realised it clashed with the winch challenge awhile ago and have been negotiating its move.
It couldn't stay on the 15th as i want to be at both aswell!!
hope to see you all there (if you don't destroy you trucks at the winch challenge )

Sorry for the thread jack Steve


P.S the L/S will be in West Auckland, near woodhill.

[shortylux]

Nice work Dieselboy. looking swish. see you there.

[darinz]

no sharp bits ?

Bo more bling!

[vvega]

lol i must say though its a fantastic looking truck

[DieselBoy]

Not so much underneath

Its one of the first ever coil conversions, it run's all sorts of weired stuff, and if it can or could be cut and welded, it has been cut and welded

I brought it with the idea of changing everything underneath, butit works so well that i can't do it............just yet

[vvega]

shhh you ...

[DieselBoy]

Ok guys, a couple more cage type questions for ya.

To start with i realise you guys don't have the NZ4wdA rules as you gotta pay for them ( i am considering scanning the section on cage construction as a reference )

Back on page 3, you guys said you didn't care whether the cage was built to ORANZ, MANZ or NZ4WDA spec's, just that it had to conform to one of these standards.

I have been doing research, and asking questions about how the NZ4WDA rules should be interpreted, and also looking through photo's of the set up's and designs current competitors that have cages built to those standards are running.

What is apparent is that the rear stays on my truck are perfectly acceptable in relation to the current NZ4WDA rules, and 99% of the trucks competing in the nationals have bends in the rear stays, and there is no requirement for the stays to be at a 60* angle to the main hoop. If i was to have built the cage myself i would have done it differently, but as it stands, the rear stays will stay as is.

The diag's gonna be pretty bendy to fit in, and will be removable, but thats all aceptable under the NZ4WDA rules.

So how are the entries looking at this stage??

It looks like everything is going to come together in time, so don't want to miss out on a place

[TeLexs]

Hi There. I changed my rear stays a while back when the cage rules were looking like there would be some stronger guide lines coming in. I had bends in the lower section of the rear stay and the front bar over the window was a two piece which had a light bar built in to it. These all looked good but after we started competing we found some stagers were fast and some had roll over options, Which we did roll over fast and the cage held up with out any damage to it or the truck. You might say sweet why change it. We wonted to win or do well and that ment faster and smater and (Its a timed comp) So we went through all the options,rule wise and did the k1w1 thing and mixed it up but most of all stayed with nzfda. My truck is a long wheel base dc Hilux and not std any way it weighs 2240 kgs loadad at the start line. Most of the cage is 2 inch pipe its strong and flexable and is exturnal around the truck (lots of trees in the comps in the north island)The rear stays are straight and the front bar is now one piece and feels stronger than before. Its not cheep to keep changing things and takes money away from the bits you really need or like ( rear diff lock ).
Do your home work do it once and keep in mind the weight of the 4x4 and length.
If you are happy with it leave it.
Cheers Klembo

[darinz]

Personally I have some issues with the NZFWDA rules and the fact that they are a secret document that you have to pay for. As a member we own the rules so they should be public so that you can veiw them etc. But enough of the politics.

If you think it complies, send in a log book application which will cost $26. If what you provide is accepted then you will be fine. If it isn't then you will need to modify acordingly and it will still only cost $26. That will include your joining fee to 4x4 Ch ($20) and annual membership ($6). Log book is free at present if you join.

At the end of the day, it is up to you to comply. If you can justify that the cage complies and you will sign on the dotted line that it does then the risk is in your hands. All we are then going to do is ensure that the bends etc haven't deformed and that the design is as YOU say it is. We are not engineers and we are not certifying that you cage is going to save your life. All we have said is that if you build a cage to the standards then we will accept that. Other people have designed the cage rules and have said that they are strong enough.

At the end of the day it is your life not ours. Our job is to provide you with the tools to protect your life. There are many ways you can cut corners and hide things from us. (I'm not for a minute suggesting you are or are trying to do this) This is supposed to be a simple process and should be easy to follow.

Also I have tried to get the NZFWDA rules removed from our rules as I (personally) have issues with them and don't recomend them to people. The exact things you are bringing up proves to me that they aren't suited to a higher speed motor sport. You can however build to the other rules and also comply with NZFWDA spec as well. It is possible to comply with all of the rules but it isn't straight foward. As an example Aaron Smythe's truck has a MANZ card and from what I've seen will comply with all the others as well. It just takes a bit of thought. (but don't copy Aaron unless you are a deseil mechanic and can rebuild motors after every race )

[DieselBoy]

Straight answers again please

If my cage comply's with the NZ4WDA rules, will i be alowed to enter???

Yes or No.

[monstr]

Hi Mate ,Straight answer ,if it complies to the NZ4WDA cage specs YES you will be okay to race you wont be turned away from the Norwest Club class comp ...Steve

Ps on the entry question we are starting to fill up pretty fast ,there are still places open but if you want to compete it would pay to get entrys in quick ,once we get 20 trucks thats it ,,

[wopass]

we are starting to fill up pretty fast ,there are still places open but if you want to compete it would pay to get entrys in quick ,once we get 20 trucks thats it ,,

getting nervous....

[darinz]

Straight answers again please

If my cage comply's with the NZ4WDA rules, will i be alowed to enter???

Yes or No.

That's what the rules say, so yes, however I am not going to tell you it complies with the NZFWDA rules as I don't know and you need to take responsibility for that part.

There is a rollcage compliance form and I suggest that you download that, fill it out and then you'll be fine. This is part of getting a logbook so as you can see the whole process is about only having to prove all this stuff once. ie making things easier (ultimately) for the organisers and the competitors.

We want the competitors to have the responsibility for their actions, not the organisers. This 'should' make it more appealing to others to organise events and so we get more racing. And that is the ultimate goal.

[wopass]

hey steve i had a great idea!!

maybe i can be a wild card entry if im up and reliable running by then ???

[monstr]

One thing i forgot to mention is that once were full we will take a couple of entrys on a cancelation list but depending on when were told someone has pulled the pin you may not get much notice that a spot has opened up ..Steve

[DieselBoy]

[quote="monstr"]Hi Mate ,Straight answer ,if it complies to the NZ4WDA cage specs YES you will be okay to race you wont be turned away from the Norwest Club class comp ...Steve
[quote]

Cheers for that

Will look into the log book thing at a later date if i continue to enjoy the fun aspect of the events. I have yet to actualy drive in a club class event, having been winch biatch in a couple previously, so i might not even enjoy driving in this kind of event and go back to being Ben's biatch

[Madaz]

Also I have tried to get the NZFWDA rules removed from our rules as I (personally) have issues with them and don't recomend them to people.

Im curious about what upsets you so much about the NZFWDA rules?

[Madaz]

Some of the NZFWDA rules


SECTION SIX - ROLL CAGES

All vehicles competing from April 2004 onwards must have roll cages constructed to comply with the following clauses 6.1 to 6.6. Vehicles which have competed (and passed scrutineering) during the 2003/2004 season may continue to compete but the roll cage must comply with Section Six of the 2003 regulations (attached as an addendum to these regulations).
6.1 CONFIGURATION (a) The general design shall be as in fig 1.
(b) No part of the drivers anatomy shall protrude outside the confines of the bodywork and rollcage when viewed from the front or rear of the vehicle.
(c) There must be at least 50mm clearance between the occupants helmets and the top of the of the rollcage. Someone of equal size may be used if navigator or driver are unable to attend scrutineering or they can be checked on the day of the trial.
(d) Roll cages must have two longitudinal braces, one each side, from the roll cage towards the rear of the vehicle, shown as A to G and B to H in fig 1.
(e) The fitting of diagonal bracing is compulsory. Such bracing must be made of material comparable to the roll cage, and shall be fitted as in fig 1. from either A, to a point between D and H, or B, to a point between C and G. Two diagonal braces,
conforming to this clause, may be used.
(f) In space frame vehicles, where the roll cage is part of the vehicle frame (i.e. there is no chassis) the principles of these Regulations shall be adhered to.
6.2 MATERIALS
(a) Roll cages shall be constructed from Grade 250 medium wall black pipe made to BS 1387 – 1985 specifications.
(b) The size of the pipe to be used is to be determined by the overall weight of the vehicle and unsupported span as follows:
vehicles up to 1000kgs -minimum 25mm nominal bore; maximum unsupported span of 1200mm vehicles over 1000kgs up to 1500kgs -minimum 32mm nominal bore, maximum unsupported span of 1400mm vehicles over 1500kgs up to 2000kgs -minimum 40mm nominal bore, maximum unsupported span of 1600mm vehicles over 2000kgs -minimum 50mm nominal bore, maximum unsupported span of 1800mm
(c) maximum unsupported span must be adhered to regardless of vehicle weight i.e. If spanning more than the maximum unsupported span permitted by these regulations then a larger appropriately sized pipe must be used.
(d) All mounting bolts will be a minimum 10mm (3/8”) diameter high tensile steel.
6.3 JOINTS
(a) All joints must be welded where possible.
(b) Joints in the main structure are not recommended, and should be avoided.
(c) If it is necessary to make a joint in the main structure, then the joint must be sleeved to prevent shearing of the joint. Internal sleeves must extend at least 10mm either side of the joint to prevent shearing.
(d) Where removable connections are incorporated in the roll cage, they must comply with 6.3 (e), (f) or (g).
(e) Where clamps are used, they must be secured through with high tensile bolts to resist sliding.
(f) Muff connections as in fig 2 may be used.
(g) Tongue and gusset connections as in fig 3 may only be used in the diagonal brace, and must be made from a minimum of 6mm plate. Bolts used to secure such joints must be minimum 12mm diameter high tensile.
6.4 MOUNTINGS
(a) All mounts to chassis or frames, must have a minimum mount area of 100 sq cms (16 sq inches) per mount of minimum 3mm plate and must be secured by a minimum of four 10mm (3/8”) high tensile bolts per mount.
(b) Where roll cage is welded to the chassis, pipe must be gusseted to a minimum bearing area of 100 sq cms (16 sq inches) per mount.
(c) Where roll cage is mounted to the body, the roll cage must be welded to minimum 3mm thickness plates with a minimum area of 232 sq cms (36 sq inches) per plate. The plates must be attached to the body panels with a minimum of four bolts or cap screws of minimum 10mm (3/8”) diameter per plate.
(d) Where roll cage is mounted to body panels, backing plates (of minimum thickness of 3mm) must be used. Backing plates must be of similar size and shape, but not exactly the same size as the mounting plates, in order to prevent a punching through effect.
(e) Where roll cage is mounted to the body the main hoop must be chassis mounted as per 6.4 (a) or (b) if the original body panels do not provide sufficient structural support.
(f) Any rubber mount used in the roll cage shall be enclosed by a steel case to prevent shearing of the mount as in fig 4.
(g) Twin lug connections as in fig 4 with axis working under double shearing conditions may be used, but not on main hoop. Bolt size for this type of connection must be minimum 12mm diameter high tensile.
6.5 FABRICATION
(a) No part of the structure shall show evidence of crimping, wall failure, or section weakening.
(b) Bends should be of a smooth and continuous nature.
(c) All welds shall be of the highest possible quality with maximum penetration, preferably mig or arc welding.
(d) An inspection hole of not less than 6mm (1/4”) diameter is to be drilled on the left hand side of the main hoop.
(e) All tubes to be as straight as possible between structural bends as per fig 1.
6.6 COMPLIANCE
(a) Any vehicle fitted with a roll cage that does not comply with these regulations will not be eligible to compete unless the design safety team has checked the cage, documented the differences to these regulations, and indicated they are satisfied
the design and construction are satisfactory.
(b) All roll overs of more than 90 degrees shall be recorded in a Roll Over Register by course stewards. This register is to be updated and made available to scrutineers before the next trial to assist in checking roll cages.
(c) All roll cage failures will require inspection by the Design Safety Team who shall be elected at each Annual General Meeting of the NCC and who may make recommendations which will forthwith be deemed to be incorporated in these
regulations.

[darinz]

Like I said this is a personal thing but they don't allow you to use medium tensile tube ie MANZ spec tube.
You can not build from cro-moly.
The biggest thing is that a NZFWDA cage is designed to allow you to roll regulary at slow speed and be able to continue. The other cage specs are more suited to what we do in that they are designed for higher speed. I'd rather build to a spec that is designed to keep you alive rather than protect the vehicle.
All I'm saying is that at higher speed a NZFWDA is outside of what it was designed to cope with.
A winch challenge has aspects of trails included but also aspects of offroad racing and you need to ensure that from a safety point of view you take all of those things into account.

I should add, there have been very few high speed crashes in WC. Normally they are frontal into a tree of similar so the vehicle structure takes the impact but one day someone will have a high speed roll and then the cage design will be critical. This is when back stay angle etc will come into play and this is one thing in particular I don't like about the NZFWDA spec.

There is nothing at all wrong with the NZFWDA spec for trails and low speed 4x4 but a WC is pushing those limits.

Again this is my personal view and another thing to take into account is that last year we had a lot of discussion around slowing the stages down so that will also have an impact.

[Madaz]