Nth. Canterbury Waipara Gorge Access Update

[BrentC]

Public land will be administered by either a local body or by the goverment and will be subject to either local body bylaws or goverment management plans such as doc CMS's

Public Land classified as esplanades and parks can be controlled by Councils. Legal Road Reserves are legal roads and are covered by spicific provisions in the roading acts that Councils can't bylaw over. ie every road formed or unformed has the same status of access etc.

[access4WD]

Brent C you are 100% correct in your road law. However in the south island we have a lot of braded river systems, and these rivers have varying titles, and even in some cases covered by their own separate Act of Parliament, so in the legal ownership and administration of rivers it is not as clear cut nor as simple as legal roads formed or unformed. I wish it was that clear cut!
Additionally Councils rate rivers for different purposes too, so rate payers therefore have a stake as well as it is their money that is being used in river control and management.
In the case of the Waipara it is a non rateable river, and the land is unclaimed crown land. It’s administration falls under E-Can our local regional council. The river is not totally covered by the queens chain and there are and have been legal claims on the river under various aspects of land title. And there are grazing rights issues as well.
It is a complex situation suffice to say, this is why we have access and rights issues with differing people having differing views.
The real issue though for us is not really access it is conservation. The river is getting a hammering and basically overused by all sorts of users, be they motor vehicles, quads, dirt bikes and so it goes on. Some users are responsible follow tracks and have a family picnic and enjoy the place, others see it as a trial course to climb every bank, drive every mud hole and generally rip it up. Our involvement is really trying to work how best this river can be managed so that the Conservation values are not further degraded.
We are already working with E-Can, DOC and other parties with respect to river management plans for most of our major river systems and beaches in Canterbury. The Waimakariri River plan, as an example, is almost completed and we will have some additional 4WD facilities there, but again guarding against overuse and careful management of the area is needed.

In no way are we forgiving our rights to legal access, nor are we being walked over by anyone, we are simply working through issues with the land managers, owners and all recreational groups so we get a good outcome good balance of use and keep public areas open for public use. Thus I was particularly disappointed to see Mikes post on this thread. That kind of teenage adolescent attitude with out due thought to the overall consequences of action is disturbing and that is what will effectively close doors to us using public land.
Paul

[DaveM]

I take it you have also requested that the person in the middle of the dispute (who runs the tours) also stay away from the area until this is resolved?

[H2OLOVA]

we are simply working through issues with the land managers, owners and all recreational groups so we get a good outcome good balance of use and keep public areas open for public use.

Thats what we all want.

[Mark]

Just found this - the view of one of the farmers up on the cliffs from March 2005 (this has been ongoing for a while obviously):
http://www.limestonehills.co.nz/Down%20 ... apbox.html

I find the title of the article quite amusing

My rights are better than your rights

Could it be the same person referred to earlier as being the shouter....

I have, from time to time, tried to suggest to a 4WD driver crossing a bit of the river within my boundary that they might like to turn round and go back. I have been shouted and sworn at.

Edit 15/10/2007: Removed quoted copy of the above article because of possible copyright issues. I'm pretty sure that at the time I posted this there were no copyright statements on page at the above link, but there is now and I have to way of knowing for sure.

[Leithfield]

An excellent post Paul, degraded only by your comments in respect of Mike. While in capacity of ORE National 4x4 Assoc. Pubic Relations Officer (Southern) I do not condone a trip at this time, I equally recognise and respect the right of public access. Until otherwise established through definitive legal process, or negotiated compromise, neither private or public right(s) prevail.

Kevin Dougherty
ORE 4x4 National Association
Public Relations Officer
Southern Region

[mike]

That kind of teenage adolescent attitude with out due thought to the overall consequences of action is disturbing and that is what will effectively close doors to us using public land.

whos adolescent and making things personal? I may not understand all the issues at hand but I understand that I have limited time in nz and on this earth and cant be assed waiting till i'm 60 to visit the places I want to. It doesnt really matter as the doors have been effectively closed to the waipra gorge for how long now? there was meant to be a meeting in feburary and its now june? how long must we wait? In another year I might not be living in NZ anymore and wont get the chance to visit this gorge becuase people are taking to long to sort this shite out incase we hurt land owners feelings visiting one of nz's scenic spots.

I think a proper update of what is happening is warranted in order to ward people off going up there otherwise telling us "you cant go up there even though by rights you are allowed to, but you cant because we dont want to step on the farmers toes" naturally makes the urge to visit the place even stronger.

Mike

[spankmeister]

I can't see what the bloody problem is. If its public land, then it is for all to enjoy, whilst preserving the habitat. If it is private land, then lets see the farmer produce evidence in the form of a Certificate of Title, to PROVE that the area in question is his etc.

I am not going to be told by some raving asshole on a hill that I'm not allowed to take my family into the area for picnic etc, if it's public land, sorry.

Like Mike said, we are only here for a short time, we should be enjoying life.

[access4WD]

The problem is and, I hate repeating my self here, There is a huge grey area as to whether this is or is not public land.
Rather than go through a series of high court proceedings to have that settled, and at the cost of many of millions of dollars we need to respect that some neighbours may have title over some or part of the land up there.
Therefore our approach is not to argue with people up there over legal access lets focus on the problem, and that is Conservation.
Paul

[Steve_t647]

The issue I have is not the access, but of the landowners automatic and complete restriction of access. I have access to several farm's for hunting as part of the dear stalkers association. Groups and organisations are not the issue, several farm's no longer allow individuals access to their back blocks, due to the amount of damage they do (visit once and they are happy) I through the association have access and they have numbers and contact details and dates (lambing, forestry work, etc) where the farm is closed easily available to those that need to know and sign's stating Private property call Jack on xxx yyy zzzz to obtain access.

The attitude that ORE and ORE members are all hoon's and holigans and out to destroy everything is just plain wrong, we are protecting our reputation and rights as much as anyone there is a lot of incorrect, vague and biased information out there on this particular river, we are not saying we are innocent, but I have seen a family walk in to this area and leave their rubbish (I took it out and put it in a bin) and also a fisherman gut a fish above a swimming hole that people were swimming in, unfortunatley they do not carry a numberplate or licence that allow's for easy tracking and identification from a distance.

I also have a friend who is in a wheelchair, she cannot use a horse walk or gain access to this part of new zealand, even my 4X4 is difficult as she has to be lifted in and out of it, I took my grandmother to places she used to live in central otago during the depression and gold rush, again impossable without 4wd access for someone who was 93. Unfortunatley she is now dead but being able to take her away to somewhere she wanted see again was great.

We as Offroad drivers carry recovery equiptment Saftey equiptment, fire extinguishers, tools and a whole lot of other things, most of us have insurance too and the fact it takes zero effort to take our rubbish home mean's we are less likley to litter (I have been known to leave organic's like apple cores behind).

In fact the number of times I have used my first aid kit off road it was never used for a 4wd accident, one a mountain biker and I also had to take the bloke to the helicopter and remove the broken bike (broken femer and in shock) one for a trail bike rider (broken shoulder blade) and remove his kike and twice for trampers (both Hypothermia). and as for the fire extinguisher only twice once for a car in a car park (three were used and the car was not in our group parked in a car park) and once because a fisherman (evidence of fishing in the fire) didn't put out the fire properley (possibly too far to get more water we won't know he was no longer there).

All everyone wants is to get together and discuss our different viewpoints, but delaying tactics and pre emptive blocking of access and all this information not available to everyone makes a messy issue.

Everyone has a responsability to provide evidence of wrong doing and ORE has even encouraged members to do so. this forum is an excelent site and if aproached I am sure Mike can make contact information available to trip organisers and announce dates access is ok and not to areas the length all over NZ. Having a month access is then two month's off for the area to recover may be the answer for powered access? I have no idea what outcome could come from discussion, but it need's to be open so everyone can know the rules, problems in certain areas that are occuring (like the waipra river mouth and rut's), and the planting's so something can be done about it.

[kaney]

Well said paul.


But i think they need to recognise that if ore is to stay out of there to "not tread on any toes" the trucks wont stop going up there, by this i mean it is a well known area, and not everybody uses ORE and hense wont know any better.

If they(farmers) know that we are trying to fix the problem they may warm up to the idea of letting a trip go ahead from ORE to SHOW that we are responsible.

[BrentC]

My rights are better than your rights

A river runs through our farm: in fact it is half of our boundary line. In some places, our boundary is in the middle of the river, in others there's some Crown (government) land, and in still others it's not entirely clear who owns what. The Waipara River defines our property.

Not sure what this gentleman has been told - but he really needs to check his boundary pegs, because only one of them gets close to the centre of the river. His land is very clearly defined in the latest data.

[alvis]

As I see it, this is a 4wd forum and people on here should fight for as much access as possible just as a fishing or tramping forum would do the same for their interest. If people from greeny sites want to spent time watching what goes on here surely they won’t be surprised that people want to go and explore different areas like the Waipara Gorge and other places in their 4wd vehicles. This forum represents the honest views of a part of the online 4wd community and to imply we should put in place some censorship to how we feel is appalling. Land owners have their equal right to share their views on this or any other public forum. If the 4wd community will not fight for access why would local body or government grant it? It seems hypocritical to me that people are concerned about others driving up riverbeds when our government will allow these terrible things to be planted all over our stunning landscape along with large power pylons and proposed schemes to ruin entire riverbeds to generate power.

Al

[Goose]

Well, I've stayed out of this so far, I really cant be arsed with politics, I deal with enough of that crap at work, but....

Paul I feel that alot of what you say has merit, but lately it seems the labels are coming out, which I dont appreciate. The latest, regarding language and attitude of "ORE", well, if you remember back to other posts, there has been far more than one member (and non-members) who have been verbally abused and threatened by the farmer in question. Another post mentioned that kids were present. As a parent, I think it's disgusting to speak like that around children. And what sort of message does that send to those kids? Why are you not calling him names and defending us?

I agree, some people here have used "inflamatory" comments, but only in reaction to being told we're "a bunch of hoons" and other such labels.

I believe, Paul, that you do have admirable intentions, and have done alot of work for all 4wd'ers, however, as has been said before, this must be a two way street. Yes, some 4wd'ers have caused damage up there, but does that condone the farmers behaviour? Does that give him a right to swear and abuse people and their children? Should we start abusing him about wrecking the environment with fetilizer run-off? Tarring everyone with the same brush leads into dangerous teritory.

There's alot of emotion on this topic, people here are rightly upset. We've been called all sorts of names, told WE wrecked "his river", when chances are, it had nothing to do with anyone who's posted here. So if we throw a couple of insults his way, well, that's just human nature. I'm sure if someone started abusing you, Paul, you'd give as good as you get
And I'd expect nothing less.

[access4WD]

Thanks Goose
Some of my posts I have edited, as I was getting personal. I apologise for that so for the sake of a good record on this thread I removed references to personal comments, condemnations or accusations that were in my posts, they add no value to this important thread and topic, as I do not want my personal attacks on anyone to interfere with good debate and dialogue from the forum, otherwise we miss the point.
I think this topic has had a good airing and basically most posts are valid and taken on board. As I say in reality this is really about sustainable use and we need to focus on conservation rather than fight about legal access at this point.
Thanks
Paul

[Moriarty]

DELETE our government will allow these terrible things to be planted all over our stunning landscape along with large power pylons and proposed schemes to ruin entire riverbeds to generate power.

Al

Alvis, I am going to reply to this comment in OFF TOPIC

M.

[Petemcc]

From what i see most ore members go by the tread lightly policy. the 4wders that are not on ore and are not educated in this are more likely not to. if the access is not closed and ore people dont go up there then the only 4wders that will go up there are the hoons. there will be a smaller numer of people up there but it is the wrong group. If this happens people will see 4wders in an even worse light and the access will deffinately be taken away..... just another way to look at it

Pete

[kiwipete]

It is interesting to look at ECAN's website at the land parcel section of their maps as to where they (ECAN) plot the legal boundries to this area.

Have a look for yourself..........

http://www.ecan.govt.nz/ECanMapping/viewer.htm

[BrentC]

It is interesting to look at ECAN's website at the land parcel section of their maps as to where they (ECAN) plot the legal boundries to this area.

Have a look for yourself..........

http://www.ecan.govt.nz/ECanMapping/viewer.htm

Looks exactly like my pic - below is a screen dump from ecan with their photos overlaid - i coloured their black boundary line yellow to make it easier to see - very clear to see why it is called limestone hills - coz that is where it's boundary ends

[BrentC]

What an excellant resource - very clearly and accutately displays the boundaries against the aerials - no doubt Paul finds it a good resource when talking to the various owners and coucils.

[kiwipete]

What an excellant resource - very clearly and accutately displays the boundaries against the aerials - no doubt Paul finds it a good resource when talking to the various owners and coucils.

There is provision to highlight the boundries too, fills them all in yellow. Select the rectangle tool on the toolbar.

[Leithfield]

UPDATE
The following should not in any way be assumed to represent the position of the ORE NATIONAL 4X4 ASSOCIATION INC; my post is solely registered as a private citizen.

For the benefit of those who peruse this forum, including landowners neighbouring the Waipara Gorge, I offer the following to public record as, in my opinion, there has been a concerted effort in some quarters to misrepresent and misdirect the factual events (in respect of such practice, I serve immediate notice to cease and desist or risk civil consequence under the Defamation Act 1954, relevant sections of the Crimes Act 1961, and the Post Office Act 1959).


On an evening in May of this year I, accompanied by my four year old daughter, was hunting rabbits west of Stringers Bridge on the riverbed. Upon later exiting the riverbed, I was followed for considerable distance by a neighbouring landowner, accused of "trespassing", threatened, and assaulted. I subsequently registered complaint with Police.

The offender concerned has now plead guilty to assault in the Rangiora District Court and, due my consent, been dealt with under the Diversion scheme. That person received consequence and made a voluntary apology, which I respect and accept.

Please Note:
- Just as those who border the Waipara Gorge should not judge all members of the 4wd community on the actions of a minority, I too would ask that the 4wd community not judge all neighbouring landowners on the conduct of one.

- The Police legal section are now themselves reviewing the purported rights of neighbouring landowners, which by consequence will provide some much needed legal clarity to the public right of access, hunting and fishing, etc.

- Until this decision is rendered, I would encourage one and all to exercise patience, restraint, and respect the process of law.

- If however, you choose to partake of access, I would encourage that you are supported by video camera, cell-phone or such like, record any experience of abuse/threat and table this for the attention of Police.
Amberley Police
Police and Traffic Safety Branch
104 Carters Road
PO Box 1
Amberley
Phone: (03) 314 8808
Fax: (03) 314 8118

- Similarly, I would encourage any neighbouring landowners who are exposed to such behaviour, or witness vandalisim, to liaise with Police.


Kevin Dougherty

[kiwipete]

Very nicely put there Kev, and well balanced too.

[albundy]

[Goose]

Are you sure that you couldn't have "mistaken" him for a rabbit........?

How did he reach you to assault you? If you were in the truck he'd need a ladder to reach the window.............

On a serious note, that sucks ass dude!! How's the wee one? Hope it didn't scare her too much, some people have no morals, leave the kids out of it, I say.

Oh well, if you're happy with the outcome, then thats cool.

And just so I don't feel left out, here's a big word, just like my hero Leithy uses. Antidisestablishmentarianism. (Damn, took me three go's to read your post, mind you, it is before 7am, and I've only had 1 coffee)

[BrentC]

to those that want to steal public land

[Steve_t647]

It is very sad to see it has gone that far, hope your little girl is OK and not afraid of going out hunting or 4wding again.

Unfortunatley this has been building for a long time and perhaps this event will finaly bring about a genuine knowledge and understanding of everyones rights.

I also hope that the official answers come soon as this issue doesn't seem to be calming down or going away.

[Leithfield]

Thankfully my daughter slept throughout the conflict, and remains blissfully unaware.

[PR]

[SMOKEY]

Congratulations Leithy on your " to be expected" well written post.
The outcome following the initial approach and subsequent action of the landowner to you and your daughter is one that is fitting given your standing in our ORE community.
" THE WORD IS MIGHTER THAN THE SWORD"

If that had of been me or some others on here I'm sure there would have been other charges pending.

On a off topic note,---- Leithy, I have this annual run in with an outfit that goes by the name of IRD: they keep telling me I owe them MONEY,----
any chance you could write them a letter on my behalf.

WITH YOU WHO NEEDS ENEMYS,

FITZY.