Norwest Club class winch challenge

[wopass]

There is nothing at all wrong with the NZFWDA spec for trails and low speed 4x4 but a WC is pushing those limits.

Again this is my personal view and another thing to take into account is that last year we had a lot of discussion around slowing the stages down so that will also have an impact.

so its like my personal view of landrovers and jeeps and other inferior 4x4's. i put up with them but i still dont like them

back on topic tho, its good that you accept that the NZFWDA cage specs are acceptable as that is what a lot of us have

[DieselBoy]

Make that 90% of club trucks, and it is them that will be entering the club class.

Tailor make the club class stages to suit those trucks and the expectation that they will have the NZ4WDA cages

[monstr]

Make that 90% of club trucks, and it is them that will be entering the club class.

Tailor make the club class stages to suit those trucks and the expectation that they will have the NZ4WDA cages

At Norwest we have tried to take this into account ,when setting tracks we try to eliminate any of the high speeds sections and sidlings and the competitors safety is on the top of the list ,we have made the call that this is the last year at Norwest that you can compete in a hard top without a cage ,next year you will need a min of a 4 point cage ,What most people dont think about is if it does turn to crap and there is an injury accident its the event director who"s held to account ,As Darin has said so far we have been lucky and no real high speed rolls in any WC event but it will happen one day and we need to show best practice and all that BS ,

On a personal note people entering WC and any motor sport event do it with there eyes open nobody holds a gun to their head they dont expect us to wrap them in cotton wool but we now have a whole PC industry out there telling us what we can and cant do you only have to look at the sports we used to play at school and kids rugby etc to see where we are headed ."rant over"

[DieselBoy]

On a personal note people entering WC and any motor sport event do it with there eyes open nobody holds a gun to their head they dont expect us to wrap them in cotton wool but we now have a whole PC industry out there telling us what we can and cant do you only have to look at the sports we used to play at school and kids rugby etc to see where we are headed ."rant over"

My sentiments exactly

[darinz]

Make that 90% of club trucks, and it is them that will be entering the club class.

Tailor make the club class stages to suit those trucks and the expectation that they will have the NZ4WDA cages

At the Northland WC everyone will be doing the exact same stages. By rights that then means that a club class truck can win over all! Now there is a challenge!
Similar to last year but after the results there and how well the club class guys coped we are going to just make everything the same.

Also we will not except any entries that do not have a 4 point roll bar.

More info later this week.

[DieselBoy]

Spare Tyres:

So whats the deal here??

I'm stoked that i don't don't have to carry it with me!!!!!

But on bush trips i normally take a 31 X 10.5 on a 15x7 rim, as it smaller and lighter, and is enough to bail me out if i can't repair the original.

What i want to know is how picky you guys are going to be.

I run 35 X 11.5's, and at the 7psi mark were i run them, they stand as tall as my 33 X 12.5 set.

My preferred option is just to run the 31 X 10.5 as a back up to get me out of the stage so i don't hold things up, but ifyour going to be really picky, i will bring one of my BIG HEAVY 60+kg 33X12.5 on the 15X10 rim.

[DieselBoy]

Independant Brakes:

Why am i not allowed to run them in Club Class???

I have independant brakes in the front.

As i have no front locker, i kinda rely on them.

Obviously, they aren't quite as effective as a locker, but they do work ok.

They are obviously going to be of no use to me to get around corners etc, as the courses are all peged for big winch challenge trucks, so no advantage there.

I reckon you guys should just let me run them, and see if it makes a difference, and you can make a call on it from there for future clubclass events.

[darinz]

The spare tyre rule is ambiguous. My interprtation is that you have to carry one and that it should the same size.
This obviously needs a tidy up as well so like Jeremy has said lets get something going on 4x4 challenges to discuss what people want. So put you thinking caps on and let us know.

It also means that the event organisers will need to add a supplementary rule to clarify it and remove any question.

Independant brakes is a simple one. Must be road legal (or road legal standard) and this isn't. Also not allowed traction control which is just computer controled independant braking. It is just a rule of the sport that was introduced to provide a playing feild. If you think it should be changed then put a submission in for a rule change. You need to be a member to do this though.

[Ralfie]

Independant brakes is a simple one. Must be road legal (or road legal standard) and this isn't.

This might be so for the full on competition but as I understand it for the club class (which this is) being road legal is not a requirement. Therefore it will be up to the organisers to rule on this one.
I think that for this event he should be allowed to compete with them. I don't think that they will provide any real advantage in a winch comp type event, probably would be more of a disadvantage.

[monstr]

As Darin has said the original rule was put in place as trucks had to be road legal,"But" as far as the Norwest club class goes your trucks dont have to be road legal As the event director this year i have listened to both side and am going to allow them this year as a trail ,I must stress that this only applys to this Comp .as one of the main track setters for this comp i cant think of any of the tracks set where fiddle brakes will have any advantage over lockers or lsd s ,and as this comp is primaraly set up for you guys to go out and have some fun the fewer obstacles we put in your way the better...Steve

[DieselBoy]

Sweet, happy camper

[darinz]

Independant brakes is a simple one. Must be road legal (or road legal standard) and this isn't.

This might be so for the full on competition but as I understand it for the club class (which this is) being road legal is not a requirement. Therefore it will be up to the organisers to rule on this one.
I think that for this event he should be allowed to compete with them. I don't that they will provide any real advantage in a winch comp type event, probably would be more of a disadvantage.

For a club comp you don't need to be road legal but you do need to be to the same standard. Allowing non-road legal trucks is not about lowering the standard at all. It is about reducing cost by removing the need to obtain WOF, reg and LVVTA cert. The same rules still apply though. BUT if the guys in the club class want this different then it can be changed.

If there is a chance before prize giving then I'd like to have a discussion about the club class rules and providing an official system like the challenge class have. The idea is to have the rules consistent and provide an open forum for discussion and a process to allow rule changes to hapen in a fair way.

[Ralfie]

For a club comp you don't need to be road legal but you do need to be to the same standard. Allowing non-road legal trucks is not about lowering the standard at all. It is about reducing cost by removing the need to obtain WOF, reg and LVVTA cert. The same rules still apply though. BUT if the guys in the club class want this different then it can be changed.

If there is a chance before prize giving then I'd like to have a discussion about the club class rules and providing an official system like the challenge class have. The idea is to have the rules consistent and provide an open forum for discussion and a process to allow rule changes to hapen in a fair way.

If being true to the name then event should be for "Club" vehicles which are the normal club type 4wd, not the bush bashers or the trials competitors, they have their own events.
It should be for club members vehicles which are normally registered and road worthy. There should be no need for a roll cage in hard top vehicles (additional cost not necessary for Club vehicles) and event organisers should prepare the tracks and courses accordingly for safety. After all the winch competition format was originally based around well set up club vehicles doing what they would normally be doing on a club trip, i.e. self recovery and I thought that the club events was to get back to grass roots

[wopass]

If being true to the name then event should be for "Club" vehicles which are the normal club type 4wd, not the bush bashers or the trials competitors, they have their own events.
It should be for club members vehicles which are normally registered and road worthy. There should be no need for a roll cage in hard top vehicles (additional cost not necessary for Club vehicles) and event organisers should prepare the tracks and courses accordingly for safety. After all the winch competition format was originally based around well set up club vehicles doing what they would normally be doing on a club trip, i.e. self recovery and I thought that the club events was to get back to grass roots

i think yes and no to what your saying, the idea behind the CLUB CLASS event is (correct me if im wrong) a stepping stone from normal club sort of stuff to full on winch comp, like a half way point but a bit more than half way so as guys like me and many others can go out there and have a hell of a time competing in a near winch comp event so we can get used to the way it runs, get the vehicle set up properly and then take the next step to full winch comp status. but the guys that have CLUB trucks that just will never be able to meet the cert/wof/reg requirements of challenge class can still get out there and mix it up and have fun also.

[mesomuddy]

[quote][/quote]"There should be no need for a roll cage in hard top vehicles (additional cost not necessary for Club vehicles) and event organisers should prepare the tracks and courses accordingly for safety. After all the winch competition format was originally based around well set up club vehicles doing what they would normally be doing on a club trip, i.e. self recovery and I thought that the club events was to get back to grass roots"

What a load of rubbish ! We are driving motor vehicles in a competitive environment, next you'll want the organisers to protect you from yourself ! Vehicles flip far to easy to go back to this.

[monstr]

If being true to the name then event should be for "Club" vehicles which are the normal club type 4wd, not the bush bashers or the trials competitors, they have their own events.
It should be for club members vehicles which are normally registered and road worthy. There should be no need for a roll cage in hard top vehicles (additional cost not necessary for Club vehicles) and event organisers should prepare the tracks and courses accordingly for safety. After all the winch competition format was originally based around well set up club vehicles doing what they would normally be doing on a club trip, i.e. self recovery and I thought that the club events was to get back to grass roots

Sorry but never going to happen ,As Mesomuddy said its a bit different to a club run were in a competitive enviroment driving fast trucks some weighing 2 tons plus ,While we can set tracks to try and eliminate the roll over risk there is still always that risk it could happen ,Call me selfish if you like but i dont want to be the one to spend weeks in court explaining why i let it happen .. As i said before This is the LAST N/W you can compete in without a roll cage.

[diffsx2]

yep, like steve has said, we can control a lot of the aspects of a comp but what we cant control is the person behind the wheel, the very nature of the terrain we compete on means there is allways a risk of something going wrong, an example of this is darrins accelerator getting stuck on in the norwest last year, a kill switch was/is the answer to that problem, with roll overs a roll cage is the answer. it is not only on the competition stages that it can be dangerious a few years ago on the farm that is being used for the norwest one of our club members ended up rolling 13 times down a hill and into a swamp. the only reason that he and his wife are still here is because he had installed a hoop and stays.
if you are wanting to do this type of competition then more than likely you are doing harder tracks on club trips, have a think about if on some of those tracks you are put in situations where roll over protection would be welcomed?

[Ralfie]

Gee you guys miss the point and missed it big time.

I was saying that the Club event should be for full bodied Club vehicles that are registered and with WOF. A trails vehicle or non registered vehicle doesn't have panels etc that the drivers are worried about, hence are driven differently and usually more dangerously. A everyday vehicle is driven with more respect (for want of a term) and therefore not as competitive.

Re the roll bar situation why change things from previous events. If it is such a big deal how come for the last year or so you have managed to run events that haven't required them. We are talking club events here which is more for the fun of it rather than a competition. I think you have forgotten about the basics and have gone overboard with political correctness and OSH. Yes, maybe a roll bar would be a good recommendation in a hard top vehicle (a cage is definite in an open top) but don't over regulate and dictate for club events.

It is my opinion and I expressed it after darinz said he would like input. If this is the way you react to input then you will never go very far at all.

[DieselBoy]

Hey Ralfie, good input!!!

I my self did wonder if the guy's were going to have a tuff time differentiating between what they are acoustomed to as they all compete in the challenge class, and then putting on the club class hat and trying to see it from a potential club class competitors point of view.

I think they are doing it well so far, every response to a sugestion has been well considered and is pretty rational, despite the huge differences in opionion amongst everyone.

Remember this is forum where people express there views as they see it, no one is going to change a rule, or the way things are done based on one person's opinion alone.

It will be taken on board, so have you say, get your thoughts out there, plant the seed, but don't get to jumpy if others counter your opinion with their own view.

My opinion is completely oposite to yours, my adgenda is no secret, i want to keep the ClubClass open to non-road legal club trucks, so i can use my truck in as many different 4x4 discipline's as possible, from bush trips, to trials events, to winch challenge's. I just want to be out there doing as much wheeling as possible.

I don't want to end up with a purpose built truck thats no use for any other discipline, sure it won't be that competetive in any of them due to the compromises that i will have to make to fit the various rules and reg's, but at least i will be out there having a good time

My opinion is, that your opinion of a club truck and what should be allowed into the club class is perhaps to short sighted, as it would rule alot of potential competitors out of the club class.

I kinda like the diretion we are going in at the moment, it favours my truck and my future intentions

[TeLexs]

I feel that the club class is a fun entry class. This is where you get the tast of it and if you like the flavour you can take a bigger bite and step up .Try in the truck you have put a roll bar in and have some fun. The guys that realy wont to win will go to Challenge class.

[darinz]

There are 3 effective levels.
Single / multiple club type events, club class regional comps and challenge class regional comps.
Where I think the confusion is, is at what level 'Club Class' comes into play.
My opinion is that the club class is there to allow guys to go to a higher level than a club event and see if they want to really get serious or just have some fun.
So to put it into trials terms, Club and Challenge class are part of the national series and race on the same tracks (basically). The level down would be small single club of Laurie Sanson type events.
If you don't want to fit a rollbar then you have to stay at the lowest level which is just like a club champs type event. It doesn't mean you can't do winch comps it just means you can't go to the next competitive level.

I think Wopass has the concept about spot on.

Also everyones opinion is valid and input is what we want (and vitally need) however you also need to consider that these events are being put on by the guys competing in them and the rules are more and more being set by the same guys. Even back last year the discussion was not if we should require a rollbar but WHEN we should require it. Ultimately it is about safety and you can't put a price on it. Removing the need to be road legal was a cost thing as it didn't change the safety standards it just changed how they were policed. It has meant there is more responsibility upon the vehicle owner as they are the ones saying the vehicle is up to scratch not a WOF issuer etc.

At Nor-West there will be a bit of time put aside to have a discussion. Just the Club class so that we can discuss these things and a rules process etc fisrt hand.

The big thing is that in general the guys running these events are competing at a higher level than the club class so it isn't easy to understand what is a safe and realistic level to set the rules at. So you guys competing in the events be warned that we need some of you to officially take over running the class. It is your class so the only way to ensure it is set as you want it to be is to get in and do it youself. You guys think I want (or have the time) to be President of 4x4 Challenges? I'm doing it because the sport needs to be run by those actually racing and those who just want better races. The politics etc should be left to failed businessmen with nothing better to do.

Also sometimes things aren't made very clear via a forum like this so as usual I'm happen for anyone to call me direct to discuss it.
09 438 7985 wk
09 436 1992 hm
0275 330637

And if anyone questions the time and effort put into this then realise that Monster (Steve) is not racing in the challenge class like he always does, (first race in 4 years missed I think) to run the club class event. If that doesn't prove how seriously we are taking getting the class running then nothing does.

[wopass]

I think Wopass has the concept about spot on.

Wooo Hooo!!!, i got something right

[vvega]

I think Wopass has the concept about spot on.

Wooo Hooo!!!, i got something right

ok so basically if i get the gist right
road registered and a roll bar and im sweet for club class

[monstr]

I think Wopass has the concept about spot on.

Wooo Hooo!!!, i got something right

ok so basically if i get the gist right
road registered and a roll bar and im sweet for club class

Regarding vehical specs i think the easiest way is to have a look at the current rules on 4x4 challenges web site ,The only real differences are
Roll cage --4 point (not 6)
reg/wof..not required
wire rope allowed (if you do i think your mad)
Normal seatbelts (instead of harness)
The only other difference is how we set the tracks ,we try to allow for the guys with a low mount winch ,and want to drive it home after the comp .. Steve..

[BrentC]

Where I think the confusion is, is at what level 'Club Class' comes into play.
My opinion is that the club class is there to allow guys to go to a higher level than a club event and see if they want to really get serious or just have some fun. .

Whereas - I would consider "Club Class" to be a standard 4wd club vehicle - ie modified by lift, bars, lockers, decent tyres and winch. With a course set appropriately for them - that is a negligible expectation of any damage. (after all - that is where your marshals and organisation mostly comes from)

After which you would hit the lowest tier of competition classes by adding roll protection and a harder course etc

[monstr]

IN ANSWER TO GRANT (if thats your real name) who left a lovely message on my answer ph 1/ No Darin and myself are no relation to Hitler 2/and yes we do know who our parents are 3/ no we are not trying to take over the winch challenges ,that is why we keep asking for input ,i would suggest you go crawl back into the cave you came out of ..Cheers,Steve

[monstr]

If you were to look at almost any 4wd club they have 3 levels of trucks
1<shiney ..basic road going truck normally on A/Ts normally do grade 1/2 tracks
2/ club truck ,modified ,mud tyres maybe a locker and winch usually lifted do grade 3/4 tracks
3/Tuff trucks ,highly modified, lockers,winch ,bigger more agressive mud tyres Etc Etc do grade 5 plus
now when we set tracks they would be classed as properly grade 4..5 we try to set them on tracks where there is least chance of damage but we cant control the driver ,because the stages are relativly short and the winching is controlled short ones most club trucks will do them without to many problems so when setting stages we are trying to accomodate both club and tuff trucks ..steve

[DieselBoy]

IN ANSWER TO GRANT (if thats your real name) who left a lovely message on my answer ph 1/ No Darin and myself are no relation to Hitler 2/and yes we do know who our parents are 3/ no we are not trying to take over the winch challenges ,that is why we keep asking for input ,i would suggest you go crawl back into the cave you came out of ..Cheers,Steve

Take it all on the chin guy's, been to much of this sort crap on the site recently.

The Club Class is coming alone in leaps and bounds and we are making good progress. You guys are doin an outstanding job, and are friendly and co-operative and full of advice

Don't let a vocal minority spoil it

[xj]

I feel that the club class is a fun entry class. This is where you get the tast of it and if you like the flavour you can take a bigger bite and step up .Try in the truck you have put a roll bar in and have some fun. The guys that realy wont to win will go to Challenge class.

Which is what the laurie sanson was about.... blokes in their road registered everyday trucks going for a blat, gettign a taste and if they want to, stepping up. That has fallen by the wayside as better built trucks emerged, the difficulty of the tracks was increased.... and so on and so forth.
I see this "club class" as a return to this style.
This exact thing was raised at the latest northern NZFWDA meeting held on 31st Jan with regard to the LS returning to its roots. (but perhaps better left for another thread)

Monstr.... dont worry mate..... we know its not true......

[vvega]

IN ANSWER TO GRANT (if thats your real name) who left a lovely message on my answer ph 1/ No Darin and myself are no relation to Hitler 2/and yes we do know who our parents are 3/ no we are not trying to take over the winch challenges ,that is why we keep asking for input ,i would suggest you go crawl back into the cave you came out of ..Cheers,Steve

Take it all on the chin guy's, been to much of this sort crap on the site recently.

The Club Class is coming alone in leaps and bounds and we are making good progress. You guys are doin an outstanding job, and are friendly and co-operative and full of advice

Don't let a vocal minority spoil it

100% agreed...
whenever ive talked to darin on the phone initially in reguards to winches but also about the roll bar requirement he has entirely far to helpfull and obiously commited to the sport
cheers for your time darin will catch up soon for a beer