manukau 4wd winch challange

[monstr]

here are some pics my daughter took over the weekend

[darinz]

i was there for a bit today, good to see a few new trucks.. that pre 84 hilux (blue) is a tidy little machine..
good day out

Thanks, don't look to close.

on another note. can some one please explain to me how I'm can come behind Steve in class points but ahead in over all points? I'm sure it will make perfect sense, but I don't get it.
I do appreciate the organisers taking the extra time to give us both class and over all points, it is interesting to see.

A big thanks to all organisers, marshals and sponsors for putting on a great fun event. Also cheers to the crew for all the help.

What you need to consider is the difference between first and last place points. When there is 16 trucks then first gets 100 and last gets 54 points. But when you increase the feild to 25 then first still gets 100 but last now gets 41 points. So if you had a really bad stage then the more in the feild the more it effects you. It is pretty common to have people change places when going from class placing to overall placings. You just need to remember that the points you get for a stage change depending on the number of trucks competing. Does that make sense?
This is why to score the classes correctly the points awarded must be for the class only and the winner MUST get 100 points.
Clear as mud?
Points table below.

1st 100 9th 72 17th 52 25th 41 33rd 33
2nd 95 10th 69 18th 50 26th 40 34th 32
3rd 90 11th 66 19th 48 27th 39 35th 31
4th 87 12th 63 20th 46 28th 38 36th 30
5th 84 13th 60 21st 45 29th 37 37th 29
6th 81 14th 58 22nd 44 30th 36 38th 28
7th 78 15th 56 23rd 43 31st 35 39th 27
8th 75 16th 54 24th 42 32nd 34 40th 26

[darinz]

I have to agree that overall it was a really good event. Everything I saw was an improvement upon last years event. The support the Manukau club gives to this event has to be commended. It was absolutely amazing to see the number of marshals that they had to give packs to at prize giving.

One thing that I saw that was a problem and is constantly a problem, is teams stuffing around prior to starting a stage. They complain about waiting too long and then when called into the start box they start putting helmets on, setting up radios etc. Everytime this happens it wastes a few mintues. Multiply that by 25 trucks and you loose an hour. Sure recovering damaged trucks can delay things but the small time wasting is the biggest issue. I made one truck start without their radios as they had been waiting for about 30 minutes and hadn't sorted their shit out and I'd had enough on the time wasting.

[UBZ]

Had an awesome time , many thanks to all involved.

It is hard to be ready to go on a stage when you have no idea what is going on . Us in the groups were sorting out our own running order , but the marshals often tryed to bump trucks forward or were sending people to other stages for no reason .

As where not supposed to be watching the stages , drivers need to be communicated to that they are next and that the previous truck is nearly out.

Spectator and support vechiles were constantly blocking and parking in access routes, and spectators often in the way of the winch man ( I think I threw a ground anchor near into a crowd a one piont ).

The wheel spin rule / deamed stuck rule is highly ambiguous and completely open to marshal interpretation , resulting in inconsistency with the peneltys between trucks on the same stage

I also think that drivers and navigators should be able to watch stages as the disavantage if going first is shared by all and going first has advantages as well.
Would keep the drivers / navigators a bit more interested in what's happening , stop the wondering off and allow penalys if not ready when called to complete.

I also really liked the way the prizes were distributed to all teams via pot luck draw, great incentive for the lesser setup / capible / new trucks to get in and have a go , But 1st place still should have got some thing special.

[shortylux]

Thanks for that info Darin. it makes perfect sense. I was interested to see how I did over all, but its really the challenge guys I want to beat, thats why I entered that class on my first event with only a single electric winch.

I agree drivers should be more ready, but hours of waiting on broken/stuck trucks is a bigger time killer. I like the idea of a hub system. Where there is a central base, and once you have finished your stage, you report here to find out where to go next. Another thing that could help with progress is realistic DNF times. a 30 minute DNF on a stage that is expected to take 4 minutes just allows me more muck around time when I'm broken. 30 minute DNF on 15 minute expected time is more realistic.

The wheel spin rule is tricky. There were two occasions where I personally witnessed a truck get the horn, keep their boot right up it and drive the hazard. As the rule is written at the moment, they should have both be penalized, but neither was. This in turn penalizes the person who did take there boot out and had to winch. There will always be a variation in the way this is policed, and I personally don't think either of those trucks should have been penalised. But the rules currently say they should have been.
I suggest a simple rewrite of the rule. You get one horn for excessive wheel spin, this is your warning. If three seconds later you are still wheel spinning and the marshal deems you are not making good progress, then you get a second horn which means you have been penalised. At this point you must back up to try another line, or start winching.

All that said, I think Dave and his helpers ran a great comp. I liked the style of stage setting, a good mixture.

[shortylux]

P.S loved the fact that there were spot prizes for marshals. Great idea.

Was also good knowing that I had a chance at a spot prize as well (wasn't expecting a prize for every truck, Awesome!)

[4WDbits]

The only problems I saw were:
1. Traffic congestion at the cattle stop. Vehicles parked on both sides of the road made it a 1 way road. Spectators/Support crews/Marshals need to be limited to 1 side or a paddock somewhere out of the way while milling around that area.

2. Vehicle recovery is always a prickly one. Competitors usually have the ability but not the desire because they don't want to break something and penalise themselves. Marshals often don't have the ability for a hard recovery. When I marshalled the Denny's once, teams had to recover themselves, that was a disaster in some cases leading to half a day lost. I don't know what the answer is for this one.

3. 'Stuck' and 'excessive wheel spin' were summarised differently for marshals and competitors leaving competitors wondering what was going on when marshals followed their brief. The difference between the 2 concepts needs to be really clear.

I had a lot of fun marshalling, even starting at 5:30am to get there on time. Was great to watch from the other side again and of course hand out a few penalties

[coxsy]

now on this late date suzukisport had no drive, stuck in the creek, a dead winch out with wheels not moving great to watch then a single line pull to get clear to see what the problem was, driver inatvertanly stepped over the cable while stil attached , his co called him on it, as marshall i let it go, he had enough problems trying to get running again, and avoid a dnf

[mercutio]

i see the comment about congestion would it be an idea to maybe organise a shuttle service from the rugby clubrooms perhaps spectators park off site wouldn't be the easiest thing to suss out though

[meatc]

now on this late date suzukisport had no drive, stuck in the creek, a dead winch out with wheels not moving great to watch then a single line pull to get clear to see what the problem was, driver inatvertanly stepped over the cable while stil attached , his co called him on it, as marshall i let it go, he had enough problems trying to get running again, and avoid a dnf

Heaps of marshells was all good, but yeah there was a bit of inconsistency in the penalties. Interpretation is always an issue, all we can really ask for is consistency from A marshell at A hazard.

[J_Dub]

yea i think its all relevant to each stage because you would assume the marshalls are generally going to be consistant throughout the day. 1 stage the marshalls could be easy and forgiving, the next stage the complete opposite, confuses the drivers a bit but so long as its consistant its works out fair with scoring

[wopass]

its only going to be fair if the competitors all do the same thing, if your leanient on one person for a mistake but then the next team doesnt make that mistake and does something else that you penalise him/her for then its unfair isnt it.

the marshals need to be accurate or its all up the shit and theres no point in having rules and penalties.

[4WDbits]

i see the comment about congestion would it be an idea to maybe organise a shuttle service from the rugby clubrooms perhaps spectators park off site wouldn't be the easiest thing to suss out though

There was a parking paddock with BBQ, great idea to have the facilities all close together. Was pretty level for the shinnies too, just needed to be a bit bigger to fit everyone. Add some cones along the side of the road and I think it would have been no problem.

[meatc]

Had an awesome time , many thanks to all involved.

It is hard to be ready to go on a stage when you have no idea what is going on . Us in the groups were sorting out our own running order , but the marshals often tryed to bump trucks forward or were sending people to other stages for no reason .
Bollocks! The group order rotates, as per the rules, and if a truck in your group has an issue he drops to the rear. When the truck before you starts, get your helmets on radios sorted and wait near but not in the start box. Sending part groups to other stages was about getting things moving when stages were busy while others were empty. If more had listened to that we could have been done quicker

As where not supposed to be watching the stages , drivers need to be communicated to that they are next and that the previous truck is nearly out. as above you are allowed to the start box, sit in your truck and wait, if you want to watch be a spectator

Spectator and support vechiles were constantly blocking and parking in access routes, and spectators often in the way of the winch man ( I think I threw a ground anchor near into a crowd a one piont ).Parking is an issue, if a spectator is in the way throw the anchor at him his problem not yours.

The wheel spin rule / deamed stuck rule is highly ambiguous and completely open to marshal interpretation , resulting in inconsistency with the peneltys between trucks on the same stageIts not that hard to understand, yueap some marshells have a lower threshold than others, always will, get used to it. a driver knows how much is really acceptable most of the time

I also think that drivers and navigators should be able to watch stages as the disavantage if going first is shared by all and going first has advantages as well.
Would keep the drivers / navigators a bit more interested in what's happening , stop the wondering off and allow penalys if not ready when called to complete.Or come to race or turn up as support crew.spectator if you want to watch

I also really liked the way the prizes were distributed to all teams via pot luck draw, great incentive for the lesser setup / capible / new trucks to get in and have a go , But 1st place still should have got some thing special.

[darinz]

Had an awesome time , many thanks to all involved.

It is hard to be ready to go on a stage when you have no idea what is going on . Us in the groups were sorting out our own running order , but the marshals often tryed to bump trucks forward or were sending people to other stages for no reason .

As where not supposed to be watching the stages , drivers need to be communicated to that they are next and that the previous truck is nearly out.

Spectator and support vechiles were constantly blocking and parking in access routes, and spectators often in the way of the winch man ( I think I threw a ground anchor near into a crowd a one piont ).

The wheel spin rule / deamed stuck rule is highly ambiguous and completely open to marshal interpretation , resulting in inconsistency with the peneltys between trucks on the same stage

I also think that drivers and navigators should be able to watch stages as the disavantage if going first is shared by all and going first has advantages as well.
Would keep the drivers / navigators a bit more interested in what's happening , stop the wondering off and allow penalys if not ready when called to complete.

I also really liked the way the prizes were distributed to all teams via pot luck draw, great incentive for the lesser setup / capible / new trucks to get in and have a go , But 1st place still should have got some thing special.

Don't get me started. (oops too late)

Wheelspin rules are ambiguous. We used to have a 3 second rule and it encouraged 3 seconds of wheelspin which damages the track so we changed it. The whole point of the wheel spin rule is to prevent track damage and so is ambigous. At my events due to the soil, you can basically wheelspin all you like and that is how it is done. Now do that with different soil and the event is screwed. You can not write a rule to allow for both of these cases. On the weekend the interpretation was hard. Tough shit it was still consistent. Yes a couple of marshals were awarding penalties when it should have been a warning and this was dealt with.
There was confusion between the wheelspin rule and the deemed stuck rule but again it was consistent on the stage.
The rule suggestions you make are what we use to do and what we have now is far better.
The crowd and the ground anchor issue you are talking about I assume is stage 6. So people were standing behind the start box where you had to put yours because it doesn't hold properly. everyone who posted a fast time set it in front of the crowd on the stage side of the fence. The rest had to go through the fence as their ground anchors are shit. The whole point of yelling stand clear winching is because you are quite likely going to winch with people around so you are responsible for ensuring they are clear.

[isuzumudman]

Now it's my turn!

I acknowledge that the rules do not allow me to change starting orders around at will and nor should I.

However, from an event management point of view, when two competitors have two stages to go and the rest have only one, it is sensible to promote those two in the starting order. This was achievable by requesting that one go to 9 (which was nearly finished) and the other be promoted in the Stage 12 starting order to run 12 and then do 9. This would have cut the finish time back by about 1/2 an hour.

At that late stage in the competition I thought everyone would whole heartedly agree. It seems that this was not the case. Another competitor took exception and insisted that the start order not change. Fair enough I suppose because I shouldn't really do that. As it turned out they both came straight to 9 anyway.

So guys, if you want these events to run as smoothly as possible you need to give out a bit of slack at times. Most do but it's the ones who don't that let us all down.

Dave

[darinz]

And word gets around quick so these people will find they get less leeway when they need assistance.
Anyway as event director, you can pretty much do anything you need to get the event to run and anyone who has a problem, well entry is optional and by invitation only!!

[shortylux]

Dave, as a compeditor I believe you absolutely did the best thing by sending trucks off to other stages to help everything run smoothly. Sure, sometimes it's best to be first on a stage, sometimes last is best. At the end of the day a certain amount of luck is involved.
Cheers.

Arron.

[DieselBoy]

Play nice people

We all had a bloody good time, in fact a farkin AWESOME time


Don't forget its a competition, we paid $250 to enjoy the opportunity to compete and some of us lower ranked competitors with similar vehicles like to compete amongst ourselves!!!!!

Why would anyone agree to changing the start order they had been running all day on the very last stage from following a Suzuki, to follow a 36" tyred thumping v8 FJ40 through a bog????

I don't see why a big tyred truck would take exception to waiting 5mins longer to allow the smaller tyred vehicles to have a fair battle between themselve's like they had been all day??

Anyhow, this is all besides the point.

The wheel spin rule is still crap, you either follow what is written on paper, or re-write the rule to suit how you old skool guy's think it should be interpreted (which is different from what the rule says on paper).

Thing is nothing has changed over the last two years in regard to the rule, so I am over trying to help sort it out

I pay my $$$$, do some skids and have heaps of fun, offer my 2 cents were its asked for, then life goes on once I get home

Skid's on at Pureora this weekend

[wopass]

*yaawwwn*

have the results been sorted out yet dave?

[isuzumudman]

*yaawwwn*

have the results been sorted out yet dave?

Yup! Finally finished last night. They are here:
http://manukau4wd.org.nz/photos/37/MWC2 ... cation.pdf
The issue was not the program but the human interface, scorers interpretation of marshals handwriting and a couple of mis-keys etc.
We will discuss these issues at the final debrief next week and adopt a more robust solution for the future.

Dave

[Andrew1706]

I only got to watch one and half stages so only 5-6 trucks but I liked the soft top Jeep with a very sexual sounding v8

[wopass]

Why would anyone agree to changing the start order they had been running all day on the very last stage from following a Suzuki, to follow a 36" tyred thumping v8 FJ40 through a bog????

dont bring me into your sling fest

Yup! Finally finished last night. They are here:
http://manukau4wd.org.nz/photos/37/MWC2 ... cation.pdf
The issue was not the program but the human interface, scorers interpretation of marshals handwriting and a couple of mis-keys etc.
Dave

thanks dave
looks the same to me, couldnt have been many mistakes, well done.

longer stages next time please to get more seat time,with same technical content.

beuty

[Jungle]

longer stages next time please to get more seat time,with same technical content.

Hey Ben. Only problem with long stages is you need a heap of time to get all the trucks through them. The recipe is: Lots of trucks = short stages.

The other option is to cut back on the number of stages so they can be longer.

Would you rather have 3 long stages or 6 shorter stages???

G

[suzukisport]

This just been put up of Aaron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO5sFyyft5k. Come on! I saw heaps of camaras out there wheres the rest of them?

[skid]

I posted up the need for constructive critiscism and Dave agreed to it and I see that a few of you are asking for more seat time.

As I'm a virgin in this sport I wanted to see what you guys want so that when we run the Welly event late next year we can try and get it right.


But right now I'm scared coz a lot of you are asking for longer stages so you can have more drive time, now I may be out of line but is this not a "winch challenge"

It worries me because we are planning on running our event at Rallywoods and there is definitely no scope to be running long stages. We can run stages with 2,3 or even more winches involved in each stages but at this point in time the plan is to be running short stages.

So would you be disappointed if you turned up to an event and had to compete over a 3 days weekend where you did something like ...................

2 afternoon and 1 night stage on a friday
4 morning, 4 afternoon and 2 night stages on saturday
4 morning stages on sunday

and should I be asking this question in a thread dedicated to the Welly event and if this is the case, would you guys bother to respond if it was on the challenges forum


fire away

[Madaz]

I posted up the need for constructive critiscism and Dave agreed to it and I see that a few of you are asking for more seat time.

As I'm a virgin in this sport I wanted to see what you guys want so that when we run the Welly event late next year we can try and get it right.


But right now I'm scared coz a lot of you are asking for longer stages so you can have more drive time, now I may be out of line but is this not a "winch challenge"

It worries me because we are planning on running our event at Rallywoods and there is definitely no scope to be running long stages. We can run stages with 2,3 or even more winches involved in each stages but at this point in time the plan is to be running short stages.

So would you be disappointed if you turned up to an event and had to compete over a 3 days weekend where you did something like ...................

2 afternoon and 1 night stage on a friday
4 morning, 4 afternoon and 2 night stages on saturday
4 morning stages on sunday

and should I be asking this question in a thread dedicated to the Welly event and if this is the case, would you guys bother to respond if it was on the challenges forum


fire away

Personally i think you are better off having more shorter stages with 2-3 winches in them rather than longer stages.
Longer stages mean more waiting around while club class trucks dnf
More shorter stages with say 20min dnfs would keep the comp flowing a lot better and it also gives you more potential points to play with to cover any dnfs or bad stages.
Using a hub style like taupo ran last year was also good, because if a stage got blocked they simply fired you off to another one.
Less waiting = more stages = more driving

[darinz]

But right now I'm scared coz a lot of you are asking for longer stages so you can have more drive time, now I may be out of line but is this not a "winch challenge"

As per the opening paragraph in the rules. It is a general 4x4 competition that MAY include winching. It isn't a winch race and seat time is important. When the guys are saying longer stages, they aren't saying 30min stages they are talking about loanger in length with the same technical component. So 2 or 3 winches in a stage but with drive time through in. They all love to put the right foot down. The balance is the hard part but we'll help you with that.

[Jungle]

I really don't think the discussion about seat time is gonna help anyone. The amount of race time is a result of the event we run. The issue comes down to one truck on the track at anyone time.

To get seat time we go offroad racing. 100 trucks all on the same course going round and round. If you only have one truck on the track and it has to get off the track in one piece before the next one starts then that and the number of trucks will set your seat time.

The other discussion about long stages or short stages quite often comes down to the terrain we have to work with. If your restricted by land area, daylight hours and large truck numbers then shorts stages work well.

Long stages will also mean long waiting periods between stages.

Back in the time of Denny's events we would all be put onto the same one way track like Stadia. This meant a long full day of racing but the comms and marshalling had to be excellent to co-ordinate the starts and stops during the stage. Plus huge walk ins to the marshaling points

As far as marshaling goes. You will get what your given in my opinion. We don't pay our marshals and we barely train them. We are thankful to get enough to run an event. Those that are demanding better consistency from marshals need to jump out of their trucks and give it a go. It's not easy making those tough decisions, especially when you have fired up blokes wanting to contest every decision.

That's my rant for the day. Feel much better.
Jungle

[monstr]

Hi Skid ,Quite honestly mate it doesnt matter what you do some guys will still moan and these are the same people who wouldnt dream of putting up there hands and run an event ,What we are doing at next years Norwest is approx 18 /20 stages all with 1-3 winches ,we intend to put a basis club truck throgh each stage and whatever his time is were adding 5min and thats the DNF we dont want stages held up with broken trucks for long perods ,we are not going to run night stages as such but some of the day stages may end up being done in darkness,that way we think we can add at least another couple of day stages as there wont be that break between day/night stages another thing to help it run smoother is have some dedicated recovery trucks on hand at problem stages ,most competitors are anti recovering others as it has cost them stages in the past with breakages doing the recovery ,if we can help in any way please just call out either on here or PM
Steve