Offroad-Express

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2012 10:14 pm**

hmmmm well if your not interested in a unstable or unsafe lifted 4x4 on the road then really this thread will be of no concern to you :lol:

but if your building a OVER POWERED, OUT OF CONTROL, JACKED UP WEAPON ! like this one

that look like its lifted over a hundy ? nah will get away with it :lol:

besides its a 2wd HOLDEN UTE HOTROD !
chances are youll be in a club ,or what ever is needed to race or drive it on the road simple really :mrgreen:

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:29 am**

My main gripe with the certification process is that every modification has to have a full Certification.

My truck has been certified 3 times by the same guy who knows the truck and did the previous certs with no problems.

A year after my 1st Cert. I decided to fit disc brakes which required another Cert. which I knew was required so was not a problem.

Then I altered the front suspension which requires another Cert which was not a problem .

But why can't every extra Modification be Certified in it own right without having to pay for a full Certification every time which has now cost me $1200.

There must be lots of others in a similar situation as me and I think we are being ripped off by the system.

I think we have gone over the top with all this regulation. I had my 1st 1956 Ford Customline V8 in 1963 and then started modifying it as others were doing as well. We had an ordinary WOF and no one had problems or killed anyone.

Cheers Richard

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:59 am**

I agree with Richard surely we don't need to pay full wack for a minor addition but back on topic I have searched the NZ Government web site and there is no mention on there about anything to do with 4x4 lifts,WTF.Whos driving all this crap,come on man up.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:07 am**

Bulletproof wrote:My main gripe with the certification process is that every modification has to have a full Certification.

My truck has been certified 3 times by the same guy who knows the truck and did the previous certs with no problems.

A year after my 1st Cert. I decided to fit disc brakes which required another Cert. which I knew was required so was not a problem.

Then I altered the front suspension which requires another Cert which was not a problem .

But why can't every extra Modification be Certified in it own right without having to pay for a full Certification every time which has now cost me $1200.

There must be lots of others in a similar situation as me and I think we are being ripped off by the system.

I think we have gone over the top with all this regulation. I had my 1st 1956 Ford Customline V8 in 1963 and then started modifying it as others were doing as well. We had an ordinary WOF and no one had problems or killed anyone.

Cheers Richard

Have you written a well researched submission to LVVTA or or you just intending to moan and groan with out bothering to actually do anything useful about it?

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:14 am**

mikee wrote: I have searched the NZ Government web site and there is no mention on there about anything to do with 4x4 lifts,WTF.Whos driving all this crap,come on man up.

I ( and others) have repeatedly explained this matter on this (and other) forums but you just keep telling we are wrong, so i am not bothering to try to get the message across to non members anymore. Members will have plenty of opportunity to be informed and are free to email me directly.
Tony

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:17 am**

Mudde1 wrote:Have you written a well researched submission to LVVTA or or you just intending to moan and groan with out bothering to actually do anything useful about it?

I think what they are getting at, is where is the public information on the proposed changes, and who exactly is is driving it from the govt? lvvta?? LTSA??
There must be a public document for EVERYONE to read and comment on, or was the NZFWDA direct approached with the problem and offered a solution,
The perception of lack of communication from NZFWDA, is the secret squirrel approach with information, it seemed to happen with DFNZ and SPARC fiasco, and it appears to be happening here as well.

Pedro

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 9:48 am**

So you have to pay up to be a member to find out how your going to charge us more for a card.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 9:49 am**

If you want to know who is involved in liasing with LTSA, have a look here:

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/about.html#about_TAC

From what I've found online this lifts issue has been around for more than 10 years. We are just fortunate that Tony has decided to publicly air this information on this forum, his posts regarding this last year were the first I had heard.

Reading about NZFWDA's involvment, I share their view:

The 4WD TRP are continually battling the bureaucrats, who appear to envisage us all in one configuration of vehicle that is not altered in its working lifetime.

We all need to stop having a go at NZFWDA and support them in this, or we will all be driving standard trucks.

Cheers,

Bill

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 10:27 am**

I just lost an hour of typing :evil:

...to sum it up, most people don't have the time or inclanation to fight dickheads who propose stupid rules, so supporting those that do may not be a bad thing. NZFWDA do need to understand that they represent the minority of 4WDer's, and most will have no idea whats apparently been proposed by someone
Jeremy

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 5:14 pm**

The reason you get stung everytime is the LVVTA sets the prices & the certifiers arent allowed to charge what they think would be a fair price for a minor change....The common term for it is price fixing.

Bulletproof wrote:My main gripe with the certification process is that every modification has to have a full Certification.

My truck has been certified 3 times by the same guy who knows the truck and did the previous certs with no problems.

A year after my 1st Cert. I decided to fit disc brakes which required another Cert. which I knew was required so was not a problem.

Then I altered the front suspension which requires another Cert which was not a problem .

But why can't every extra Modification be Certified in it own right without having to pay for a full Certification every time which has now cost me $1200.

There must be lots of others in a similar situation as me and I think we are being ripped off by the system.

I think we have gone over the top with all this regulation. I had my 1st 1956 Ford Customline V8 in 1963 and then started modifying it as others were doing as well. We had an ordinary WOF and no one had problems or killed anyone.

Cheers Richard

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:14 pm**

Pedro wrote:
Mudde1 wrote:Have you written a well researched submission to LVVTA or or you just intending to moan and groan with out bothering to actually do anything useful about it?

I think what they are getting at, is where is the public information on the proposed changes, and who exactly is is driving it from the govt? lvvta?? LTSA??
There must be a public document for EVERYONE to read and comment on, or was the NZFWDA direct approached with the problem and offered a solution,
The perception of lack of communication from NZFWDA, is the secret squirrel approach with information, it seemed to happen with DFNZ and SPARC fiasco, and it appears to be happening here as well.

Pedro

Please explain what more we can do to provide you with information given that it was in the last 3 issues of Trail torque that will have been emailed to your email address on our data base. did you respond when we asked for anyone with an interest in this to contact me? did you read the minutes of the national exc or zone meeting that were sent to every club? did you ask me for information when you saw me at the final of the nationals or spoke to me after the exec meeting? did your delegate pass on the information that was given to them? We can only send the information, which we do. it is up to you to read it.
Tony.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:43 pm**

This thread is a waste of time.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:46 pm**

Mudde1 wrote:
Pedro wrote:
Mudde1 wrote:Have you written a well researched submission to LVVTA or or you just intending to moan and groan with out bothering to actually do anything useful about it?

I think what they are getting at, is where is the public information on the proposed changes, and who exactly is is driving it from the govt? lvvta?? LTSA??
There must be a public document for EVERYONE to read and comment on, or was the NZFWDA direct approached with the problem and offered a solution,
The perception of lack of communication from NZFWDA, is the secret squirrel approach with information, it seemed to happen with DFNZ and SPARC fiasco, and it appears to be happening here as well.

Pedro

Please explain what more we can do to provide you with information given that it was in the last 3 issues of Trail torque that will have been emailed to your email address on our data base. did you respond when we asked for anyone with an interest in this to contact me? did you read the minutes of the national exc or zone meeting that were sent to every club? did you ask me for information when you saw me at the final of the nationals or spoke to me after the exec meeting? did your delegate pass on the information that was given to them? We can only send the information, which we do. it is up to you to read it.
Tony.

Tony,
I concur with what you are saying, however reading of the last forum thread and now this one, I really do think that you are on a hiding to nowhere. You are prepare to stand up, make comments and then have the snot kicked out of you. I have still to see any of the bleaters/moaners who should have read what is happening, becasue they will have or should have received the information, put their hands up to make a statement that they will take over the discussion and give up the time to make a case to the government agencys invovled.

Every member on this forum who is not happy with what is being proposed, get off your arse and make comments to all the government agencys that you can think off weather they have any input or not into motoring. Send a strongly worded email or letter to every politicain in the country. Here is some addresses if you need them
http://lawisanass-wingate.blogspot.co.n ... cians.html
(Edited for spelling)
Dan Barnett

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:47 pm**

klompy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

Agreed!

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:52 pm**

Mudde1 wrote:
Pedro wrote:
Mudde1 wrote:Have you written a well researched submission to LVVTA or or you just intending to moan and groan with out bothering to actually do anything useful about it?

I think what they are getting at, is where is the public information on the proposed changes, and who exactly is is driving it from the govt? lvvta?? LTSA??
There must be a public document for EVERYONE to read and comment on, or was the NZFWDA direct approached with the problem and offered a solution,
The perception of lack of communication from NZFWDA, is the secret squirrel approach with information, it seemed to happen with DFNZ and SPARC fiasco, and it appears to be happening here as well.

Pedro

Please explain what more we can do to provide you with information given that it was in the last 3 issues of Trail torque that will have been emailed to your email address on our data base. did you respond when we asked for anyone with an interest in this to contact me? did you read the minutes of the national exc or zone meeting that were sent to every club? did you ask me for information when you saw me at the final of the nationals or spoke to me after the exec meeting? did your delegate pass on the information that was given to them? We can only send the information, which we do. it is up to you to read it.
Tony.

All fine and dandy if your a NZFWDA member, What about the majority of 4WDer's? Give us the details or link of who's driving this please. I'm interested in reading it for myself instead of relying on an organisation that represents a minority
Jeremy

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:53 pm**

rangimotors wrote:
klompy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

Agreed!

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 7:54 pm**

rangimotors wrote:
klompy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

Agreed!

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

Well said

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:04 pm**

rangimotors wrote:
klompy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

Agreed!

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

In lieu of not being able to find an emoticon with hand clapping I say "hear hear"...best post i've read yet.

And I agree - put up details of who the agency or dept is that is pushing the changes so we may challenge them directly as individuals AND the majority of people who have a genuine interest/involvement in 4wding overall.

Secondly the NZFWDA doesn't speak for me...Combined 4wd Clubs here in the South has my money.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:07 pm**

no point speaking to them, this is a take it or nothing deal, as we have been told

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:10 pm**

coxsy wrote:no point speaking to them, this is a take it or nothing deal, as we have been told

By who??? He said, she said, by who??? Statements need to be backed up

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:15 pm**

coxsy wrote:no point speaking to them, this is a take it or nothing deal, as we have been told

im sorry coxy but thats just not good enough for me. A lot has been changed in this country and others by people standing up and fighting against the "take it or leave it deals" and far to much of this sort of thing is slipped under the covers where the actual person (or party) pushing for it gets to hide behind others. People like Tony get all the shit that the polititions deserve. If we as people accepted every motion put forward by governments without question where would we be?

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:16 pm**

I have Emailed LVVTA today to get them to explain what is happening and what is involved and what time frame they are talking about to change the rules.

They haven't replied yet. If they don't reply by early next week I will ring them and demand an answer so we know where stand.

Cheers Richard

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 8:40 pm**

well tony is in the middle, so no need to hassle him over this
shot the messanger is not a good idea as then you are left with no messages

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 9:10 pm**

Sorry Coxy but he's not really telling us anything,the nzfwda needs a better person to communicate to the general public about issues like this.Tony should be in charge of membership because by joining the association will be the only way he will tell you anything.I do not belong to a club so don't get any info on stuff like this so when we ask whats going on we end up with pages and pages of dribble when all he needed to do was a link to there web site.This site has 6300 odd members and the nzfwda 2100 who do you think would benefit from some better communication.Rant over,thats me for this topic.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 9:19 pm**

Problem is his messages are directed only at a minority first and we get the leftovers when they have past their use by date.

I understand that his loyalties are firstly with the nz4wda, but the elitist attitude about members views and comments being valued over the rest of us "mere mall crawling 4wd owners" pisses me off.

This is a public forum which gives anyone the oportunity to gain insights from all of the online members. And yes I realise that if you havent got access to the forum then its could mean you get excluded but there are 4wd magazines and public notices in papers.

If you have the ability to canvas a large amount of people without too much trouble then why not?

There is strength in numbers, not in minorities and more is acheived with a coordinated widespread attack than small piecemeal arguements, so dont let your personal grudge/vendeta cloud the issue.

Posted: **Fri May 11, 2012 9:53 pm**

Im going to the next combined meeting next week... Going to see what they know and how the clubs feel about thngs and to get something going.....from what ive head so far from the members there are alot of pissed off people.

Twodiffs wrote:
rangimotors wrote:
klompy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

Agreed!

Tony I understand you wanting to defend the position of the NZFWDA but please understand many of us ARE NOT having a go at the NZFWDA and appreciate the effort that the NZFWDA is putting it to keep NZ 4 wheeling alive and kicking. What we are trying to find out is who is pushing for the changes as that who we will be wanting to have a go at. As you have promised many times, the NZFWDA is not the ones pushing for changes so why do you need to defend them? I understand that you are doing the best that you can with the changes that you say are being forced but don't be offended if we jump above the NZFWDA to track down who is pushing for these changes.

As a side note your lack of interest to give any feedback or assistance to non NZFWDA members is why many New Zealanders would never consider joining the NZFWDA. You prove you actually care about 4 wheeling new zealanders as a whole (not just paying members) and you'll be shocked at how many people support you.

In lieu of not being able to find an emoticon with hand clapping I say "hear hear"...best post i've read yet.

And I agree - put up details of who the agency or dept is that is pushing the changes so we may challenge them directly as individuals AND the majority of people who have a genuine interest/involvement in 4wding overall.

Secondly the NZFWDA doesn't speak for me...Combined 4wd Clubs here in the South has my money.

Posted: **Sat May 12, 2012 6:57 am**

coxsy wrote:well tony is in the middle, so no need to hassle him over this
shot the messanger is not a good idea as then you are left with no messages

From what I have read and i'm not having a go at Tony...but it seems he's not in the middle, looks to me like the NZFWDA have orchestrated this along with LVVTA.

Posted: **Sat May 12, 2012 7:08 am**

Twodiffs wrote:
coxsy wrote:well tony is in the middle, so no need to hassle him over this
shot the messanger is not a good idea as then you are left with no messages

From what I have read and i'm not having a go at Tony...but it seems he's not in the middle, looks to me like the NZFWDA have orchestrated this along with LVVTA.

Not having a go either, but can you back that up?

Posted: **Sat May 12, 2012 8:24 am**

Until I get a reply from the LVVTA, from where I am sitting at the moment it looks to me that the Authority card idea is the brain child of the NZFWDA at one of the advisory meetings with LVVTA to gain power over 4 wheel drivers.

The Hot rod clubs and the racing clubs also have Authority Cards and you will find nearly all hot rodders and racing people belong a club where as with 4 wheel drivers probably less than 1 % belong to the NZFWDA so they should not be able to have power over the rest of us regarding Suspension lifts by means of an Authority Card

The Hot rod Authority card lets them drive on the road with Wheels out the side

The Racing club Authority card lets them drive on the road with a 4 point harness

For some Club Captain in a 4 wheel drive club to give Authority to a lifted truck when they haven't got a clue about design and handling is a different issue because of safety on the road.

All lifted trucks whether they belong to a club or not should carry on being tested by a Certifier as is presently done.

Cheers Richard

Posted: **Sat May 12, 2012 9:56 am**

Most of this thread is about people putting there head in the sand and farting in the general direction of those standing up trying to do something.

Richard and the few others actually doing something to understand the facts, good on you and I hope you put your unbiased findings on here. Have you actually spoken to Tony? or Ken (the LVVTA delegate)?

NZ4WDA membership is wide spread judging by the list of clubs associated with it http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/clubs/

There is a lot of political motivation to reduce 4WD modification, not only to prevent muppets with un safe mods, but also because 4wd bashing was/is popular in the media. I'm sure you all remember the blind spot debate, 4wd accident reports and lots of dead people, babies and animals, unnecessary recoveries all because of 4wds. If you want to see the direction vehicle modification controls are taking, look at some of the rules in Australian states.

If 4wds can have a system along the lines of MANZ or the Hot Rod Association then it is a good thing. If the NZ4WDA has put in the time, effort, money and politicking to get something up and running then I applaud them. There is no barrier to other organisations attempting the same.

The MANZ and Hot Rod systems weren't perfect out of the box, I'm sure the NZ4WFA system will benefit from maturity. They all have fees and standards.

As with MANZ and Hot Rods, no authority card means meeting low volume rules if you want to drive on public roads, the choice is yours.

Offroad-Express

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