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Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:56 pm
by Paulballz
Cool thanks guys, it was found today the guy i used out by me to do wheel alignment was shocking, took it to top bloke in town today who spent an hour working on an it is much better now, better than original as well.
My toe was miles out and my castor was out so he shimmed that and reset toe. Thanks for heads up on bushes he checked through all mine today an said they were fine
Have print out with all the specs if anyone needs it
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:25 am
by DEATH_INC
I don't need them, but I'd be interested to have a look at what he's set it to...just for comparison purposes....
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:18 pm
by Paulballz
Sweet,
Front Left [Front Right]
Camber 0.60° [0.69°]
Caster 1.64° [1.12°]
Toe 2.0 mm [2.3 mm]
SAI 7.20° [7.10°]
Including angle 7.80° [7.79°]
Front Total
Cross Camber -0.09°
Cross Caster 0.52°
Cross SAI 0.10°
Total Toe 4.3mm
He also tightened my steering play in steering box, i had huge amount of movement (could turn outer steering wheel 40mm+ without wheels moving) so now it firmer it much nicer to drive and gives a better feel for the road. Bump steer is much better it doesn't sway off road when turning on bumpy road (section of road near home i always have had problem with was good)
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:51 am
by Dirtydog
i saw a terrano today and the camber on the front wheels where astonishin, it looked like some kind of after market racing upgrade for better cornering
hate to see what they pay for tyres being replaced.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:56 pm
by lax2wlg
Dirtydog wrote:i saw a terrano today and the camber on the front wheels where astonishin, it looked like some kind of after market racing upgrade for better cornering
hate to see what they pay for tyres being replaced.
Yeah it can become a complete mess... sh*tloads of shims and the bolt starts to loosen on the frame, balljoint is being thrashed, bumpstop eventually gets spat out, then the CV angles max out, eventually a boot tears, then a cv fails... arggghh
I've found aftermarket upper control arms solve most of this, so at 2.5" of crank the suspension geometry is all within factory spec. So you still get up-travel and the balljoint sits flat. Plus the bumpstop is bolted into place & won't go anywhere.
Pic is mine on rough ground with Superlift/Rough Country UCAs, no camber shims and just an eye-lignment, and about 2.5" of torsion crank.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:47 am
by DEATH_INC
lax2wlg wrote:Dirtydog wrote:i saw a terrano today and the camber on the front wheels where astonishin, it looked like some kind of after market racing upgrade for better cornering
hate to see what they pay for tyres being replaced.
Yeah it can become a complete mess... sh*tloads of shims and the bolt starts to loosen on the frame, balljoint is being thrashed, bumpstop eventually gets spat out, then the CV angles max out, eventually a boot tears, then a cv fails... arggghh
I've found aftermarket upper control arms solve most of this, so at 2.5" of crank the suspension geometry is all within factory spec. So you still get up-travel and the balljoint sits flat. Plus the bumpstop is bolted into place & won't go anywhere.
Pic is mine on rough ground with Superlift/Rough Country UCAs, no camber shims and just an eye-lignment, and about 2.5" of torsion crank.
This is a WHOLE new subject....I learnt a lot when I started designing the new upper arms for mine...
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:04 am
by DEATH_INC
Paulballz wrote:Sweet,
Front Left [Front Right]
Camber 0.60° [0.69°]
Caster 1.64° [1.12°]
Toe 2.0 mm [2.3 mm]
SAI 7.20° [7.10°]
Including angle 7.80° [7.79°]
Front Total
Cross Camber -0.09°
Cross Caster 0.52°
Cross SAI 0.10°
Total Toe 4.3mm
He also tightened my steering play in steering box, i had huge amount of movement (could turn outer steering wheel 40mm+ without wheels moving) so now it firmer it much nicer to drive and gives a better feel for the road. Bump steer is much better it doesn't sway off road when turning on bumpy road (section of road near home i always have had problem with was good)
Very nice figures for a stock vehicle.....but....That is a lot of toe in. Watch the wear on the outside of the front tyres.
In comparison I run mine at something like (I can't remember exactly....age etc...) ; around .1 deg camber left, .3 deg right and 1mm total toe in. Somewhere around .5 to 1 deg castor, tho it's not that important in the big scheme of things. And I'm still worried about outer wear....
I prefer to run negative camber, but the new arms I made are too spot on (I made them the right length to compensate for the lift...) and won't let me drop it down that far....
When you lift these things, as soon as the suspension starts to compress they gain positive camber.
Again...with the stock arms and around 2" of suspension lift, stock steering, I ran 1 deg negative camber, and 0 toe in and had perfect tyre wear...
There is also some variation between the models...but not a lot.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:17 am
by wax
You made your own arms. I would love to see them. I have thought about that myself. did you did you make them a bit longer ???
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:00 pm
by BogBoy
lax2wlg wrote:Cheers Paul and thanks for your welcome on the other thread...
Bogboy... apprarently any D21 box will work as an idler on our RHD trucks, but apparently the pitman taper changed in model year 1992 to a slightly larger taper. So depending on the year of your truck, I guess its just a case a getting either a 1986-1992 or 1992-1995 box. Would be keen to see some pics of your setup.
It seems, around the world in Nissan groups, that the 2wd steering mod is an inherently superior system for a lifted Terry, but because the tie rods are no longer following the angle of the upper control arm, on-road manners can be compromised.
For off road use, the system is very durable, but on the road, it can exemplify wear & tear in the rest of the IFS.
I have found that replacing front sway bar, upper control arm bushings and tension rod bushings (compression rod, strut rod, whatever) make a DRAMATIC difference in controlling bump steer and general road manners.
BTW Paul, if you need a set of tension rod bushings, I have some red poly ones from the US w/ about 200km of use on them, complete w sleeves... got some replacement Moog ones cheap recently for the hell of it... PM me if you are keen
Hey with the size of the tapper do I measure it at the top or the bottom?
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:02 pm
by BogBoy
wax wrote:You made your own arms. I would love to see them. I have thought about that myself. did you did you make them a bit longer ???
+1
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:57 pm
by lax2wlg
Pretty sure you measure pitman taper from the top, apparently 1992 and after, taper was slightly larger, also on steering knuckles too. Not much larger but enough to f**k the balljoint on your new centre link.
I think its awesome you guys have the skills to fab your own control arms, all good with cert?
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:48 pm
by BogBoy
lax2wlg wrote:Pretty sure you measure pitman taper from the top, apparently 1992 and after, taper was slightly larger, also on steering knuckles too. Not much larger but enough to f**k the balljoint on your new centre link.
I think its awesome you guys have the skills to fab your own control arms, all good with cert?
My wof guy said it was fine due to the system being a factory nissan center link apart the adjusters
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:25 pm
by DEATH_INC
lax2wlg wrote:Pretty sure you measure pitman taper from the top, apparently 1992 and after, taper was slightly larger, also on steering knuckles too. Not much larger but enough to f**k the balljoint on your new centre link.
I think its awesome you guys have the skills to fab your own control arms, all good with cert?
Cert? Wassat then? No, I have a VERY forgiving wof guy at work.....He does keep commenting on it all the time....and won't put a wof on it if I sas it...But they should be ok if I do need to cert it, they're built to the specs in the cert book.
Have a look here if you wanna see what they look like
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/ ... 18&t=31706
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:28 pm
by DEATH_INC
BogBoy wrote:Hey with the size of the tapper do I measure it at the top or the bottom?
Just measure the taper where it goes into both the pitman and the idler, if they are both the same, then you are ok. If they are different, you will need to get a 91-92 pitman.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:33 pm
by DEATH_INC
wax wrote:You made your own arms. I would love to see them. I have thought about that myself. did you did you make them a bit longer ???
Link in reply 2 posts up.
As for length, you need to make them longer to compensate for the downward angle. Don't change the angle of the BJ though, it actually gets more angle the other way on full compression than it does at full droop. I can try to find the drawings I made if you really want them...
I made up a jig to weld 'em together on, that I can alter the length a bit on...
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:46 pm
by BogBoy
DEATH_INC wrote:BogBoy wrote:Hey with the size of the tapper do I measure it at the top or the bottom?
Just measure the taper where it goes into both the pitman and the idler, if they are both the same, then you are ok. If they are different, you will need to get a 91-92 pitman.
Ok so which pitman arm am I measuring? the one on my 4wd now or the one Im getting?
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:50 am
by lax2wlg
The one your getting - ie the box that will act as the idler.
if you have your 2wd centerlink out of the vehicle, maybe just take it down to a wrecker and try it on for size, there should be no play between the joint and pitman.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:40 pm
by wax
DEATH_INC wrote:wax wrote:You made your own arms. I would love to see them. I have thought about that myself. did you did you make them a bit longer ???
Link in reply 2 posts up.
As for length, you need to make them longer to compensate for the downward angle. Don't change the angle of the BJ though, it actually gets more angle the other way on full compression than it does at full droop. I can try to find the drawings I made if you really want them...
I made up a jig to weld 'em together on, that I can alter the length a bit on...
Yes please I would like to see the drawings
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:10 am
by DEATH_INC
BogBoy wrote:DEATH_INC wrote:BogBoy wrote:Hey with the size of the tapper do I measure it at the top or the bottom?
Just measure the taper where it goes into both the pitman and the idler, if they are both the same, then you are ok. If they are different, you will need to get a 91-92 pitman.
Ok so which pitman arm am I measuring? the one on my 4wd now or the one Im getting?
Measure both tapers on your centerlink. (the one on your truck now) If the pitman one is bigger than the idler one, you have the 93+ centerlink. If they are the same, you have the earlier link-no problems.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:12 am
by DEATH_INC
wax wrote:Yes please I would like to see the drawings
Dammit, I knew someone would
I did 'em the old fashioned way...paper and pencil. Will take 'em to work and see if the scanner on our fax machine will scan them....
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:25 am
by wax
hahaha
just take a pic with a camera and then post that online. I do it all the time the iphone makes a great scanner
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:09 pm
by DEATH_INC
I-phone? Sounds expensive.....no such luck..My LG takes ok pics...but not that good at closeups. I'll try to dig 'em out tomorrow and take some with My camera and see how they come out....
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:33 am
by Paulballz
just quick edit to my first response, cert plate returned today an nothing on it about steering, so steering does not require cert. It was all documented in paper work from certifyer as needing cert but they obviously disagreed..good news
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:11 pm
by BogBoy
Doing a new years trip to the nelson region since my last trip was cancelled, Will see how it fairs on the open road.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:19 pm
by Heath
Paulballz wrote:just quick edit to my first response, cert plate returned today an nothing on it about steering, so steering does not require cert. It was all documented in paper work from certifyer as needing cert but they obviously disagreed..good news
Could pay to check as sometimes stuff gets left off, but you might be okay.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:33 pm
by fullthrottle
If only they knew that the adjuster was tapped out. Knowing this would require them to certify it.
A few WOF places told me that it is fine since the entire system is standard Nissan off the shelf parts (excluding adjuster of course).
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:17 am
by DEATH_INC
BogBoy wrote:Doing a new years trip to the nelson region since my last trip was cancelled, Will see how it fairs on the open road.
I towed My bike to taupo a week or 2 back...600k's there and back....no problems at all.
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:20 pm
by lax2wlg
I think its the classic off-road capability/on-road manners trade off...From what I gather its never going to be as nice on road as the factory system, because the tie-rod to control arm angle is no longer consistent.
On road I'm not getting bumpsteer but a little bit of wander/vagueness, though I haven't had the alignment properly done. Overall predictable but a different driving style needed. Even more so with front sway bar off. Off road I'm very happy with it, none of that furious toe in/out behaviour under load.
Wax I notice you put a stabilizer on, would you recommend for road manners?
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:55 pm
by wax
The stabilizer was an awesome thing to do. With a wheel alignment it was awesome
Re: 2wd steering mod for Terrano
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:06 am
by danielbeek
I'm interested to know if anyone with the 2WD steering mod has managed to damage the 4WD parts (inner TREs used as outer TREs in new config, and the drilled out adjuster tubes).
The thing is, the 4WD bits are only 16mm thread, but that said are straight and pretty short so maybe not that vulnerable?
I'm asking as I have found some beefy alternative TREs that seem to match all the critical dimensions, but appear to be 18mm thread, and a larger ball.....
Just need a L/H thread tap.