Page 4 of 4
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:37 pm
by cowman
Interested to know why the nothelane bushes are "shitbox" about to replace the ones on my truck with nothelane. What did the Nissan ones cost?
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:09 am
by lax2wlg
Hi Cowman
I have just found that the nolethane bushes are not only overpriced and overhyped, but also wear out way too quickly, particularly in a 4x4 application where they are subject to quite high impact loads.
I feel the same way about all chassis parts - tie rod ends, balljoints etc. I only use Japanese parts.
On the whole, Cheap Aftermarket non-OEM parts seem to 'do the job' okay but fall short in a few key areas, the first being longevity. Kind of like American cars. The kicker however is that the Nolethane products are a ridiculous price for what they are - pieces of shitty plastic. My advice would be to keep the receipt and take them back to Repco when they fail and ask for replacement under warranty.
I also searched on the patrol4x4 site and also this site, and everybody else seems to have the same results with the Nolethane product - they flog out in under a year.
People say 'yeah but they make the ride quality better because they are a harder material.' I think it's marginal, if anything.
Although not specifically applicable to the upper control arm bushing, It has also occurred to me that in some applications - radius arms, tension rods etc. - that a rubber deformable bushing is far preferable. These suspension systems, by nature of their very design, rely on a deformable bushing in order to provide maximum suspension travel without binding. Nolethane bushes, however, are much stiffer and therefore can inhibit suspension movement, or bind up completely and split (fail)
I got the OEM Nissan bushings on trademe by sheer luck just browsing around, but you should be able to get some from Cockram Nissan, although the price will be inflated. Next year I will be looking to source parts like this (and 1KZ heads by the sounds of things lol) for ORE members locally from Japan.
My last Pathy v6 still held perfect alignment with 175,000 miles (so well over 250,000km) and over 20 years of use on the original rubber bushings. Same with the Nissan balljoints.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:16 pm
by MUDFINDER
lax2wlg wrote:Haha cheers, yes good call on the idler mod, 'i like, very much'
Cost:
Bushings, balljoints $160USD
CVs/knuckles - scored from my parts truck, wreckers would want silly money. Pickapart would be the go.
UCAs - retail at US$300, hard to find nowadays but I have some hookups. Stay away from the AC brand ones, they are cheaper but don't help with balljoint angles.
Hubs - you can find 28 spline manual hubs on trademe for 150ish, pretty sure D22 kit will fit, apparently OEM ones are the sturdiest. I'm not convinced yet on the Warn 'breakable' hubs, cool in theory but it may be all smoke and mirrors. ie is it even possible to calculate the failure point of the CVs in every possible scenario? What, so Warn has a million different rings of varying strengths/weights for each of the vehicles they make hubs for? What about engine/tyre size differences?? etc
I got the hardware at good prices through some buddys at Rockauto, Rough Country and 4x4parts, considering a bulk order (including UCAs) so more people here in NZ can enjoy this stuff without it costing a million percent in various taxes.
Pete I would imagine the UCAs may need cert, my common sense WOF guy isnt fussed so long as its safe. I got a certifier to check them out before install, he said no probs so long as I show receipt/letter from Superlift, and so long as they are stamped by the manufacturer. Cert will be inevitable for me as I have a 40mm bodylift planned. The other good thing about the UCAs is they have grease zerks for the bushes.
May just change this to a full build thread... pretty much done on the interior too, got the R32 wheel for $30, Navara stick handbrake (lots of c**ting around getting that to work), centre lap belt, din tray and CB tray. Wired the old air con momentary switch into the rear work light switch, so I can flash it for recovery/tailgaters etc. Put in more interior lights, built up the toolbox and bolted it into place, added a grab handle to the inside of the hatch, 3rd brake light
Where can i get some of the UCA's? I'm running into issues with mine.. The larger diameter of my new shocks rub on the factory control arm
and i really don't want to wreck them! I've only just noticed it now since my trucks been off the road for ages.. I'd like to ideally like to somehow strengthen up the steering in mine too, is there any way you could give me a contact for some parts?
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:48 pm
by Crash bandicoot
Andrew at 4wdbits is probably your best bet for the aftermarket UCA's, as i think josh's one are not made anymore(don't quote me on that though,)
you will need to shim the fulcrum rod for the Calmini arms to A: clear the shocks on full droop and B: get the camber correct, i had to shim mine about 10mm to get the camber correct for a 3 inch lift.
But with that comes the bendy steering issue as you have read here.
as you can tell the factory r20 steering is now only good for tarseal work, as any big bump or rock is going to fold the tie rods in half at that angle
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:07 pm
by MUDFINDER
Crash bandicoot wrote:Andrew at 4wdbits is probably your best bet for the aftermarket UCA's, as i think josh's one are not made anymore(don't quote me on that though,)
you will need to shim the fulcrum rod for the Calmini arms to A: clear the shocks on full droop and B: get the camber correct, i had to shim mine about 10mm to get the camber correct for a 3 inch lift.
But with that comes the bendy steering issue as you have read here.
as you can tell the factory r20 steering is now only good for tarseal work, as any big bump or rock is going to fold the tie rods in half at that angle
How much are they worth do yah know? lol, my tie rods are in just as much of an angle!
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:10 pm
by Crash bandicoot
got mine for 800 inc gst even from 4wdbits.
shocks from BNT, and the poly spring spacers from aussie via trademe.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:27 pm
by lax2wlg
Where can i get some of the UCA's? I'm running into issues with mine.. The larger diameter of my new shocks rub on the factory control arm
and i really don't want to wreck them!
To be honest, you dont 'need' the a-arms. They make the IFS 'work' better but theres no strength issues with the factory a-arms. Just dont use balljoint spacers. In Toyota IFS you can get away with spacers because the upper a-arm acts as the pivot for the torsion bar, hence it is a beefier unit.
If it was me I would just get a smaller bore shock.
But set the ride height as low as possible without smashing guards too much. 'Cranking' the torsion bars is the worst thing one can do to the vehicle. It really kills offroad performance.
I'd like to ideally like to somehow strengthen up the steering in mine too,
Now that you really 'need' to do, especially with the Simexticles. For reliability and performance this is the top concern.
Search for '2wd steering mod,' fullthrottle started a good tech thread on the parts needed. My concern was the curved inner tie rod. With the HD adjusters, the absolute worst you can do is bend the outer tie rod, which would not be a catastrophic failure (you could still get home). It would just knock out the toe setting a bit.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:52 pm
by Crash bandicoot
lax my factory a arms had hair line cracks all around where the ball joint bolts to it, just sayin.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:21 pm
by MUDFINDER
lax2wlg wrote:Where can i get some of the UCA's? I'm running into issues with mine.. The larger diameter of my new shocks rub on the factory control arm
and i really don't want to wreck them!
To be honest, you dont 'need' the a-arms. They make the IFS 'work' better but theres no strength issues with the factory a-arms. Just dont use balljoint spacers. In Toyota IFS you can get away with spacers because the upper a-arm acts as the pivot for the torsion bar, hence it is a beefier unit.
If it was me I would just get a smaller bore shock.
But set the ride height as low as possible without smashing guards too much. 'Cranking' the torsion bars is the worst thing one can do to the vehicle. It really kills offroad performance.
I'd like to ideally like to somehow strengthen up the steering in mine too,
Now that you really 'need' to do, especially with the Simexticles. For reliability and performance this is the top concern.
Search for '2wd steering mod,' fullthrottle started a good tech thread on the parts needed. My concern was the curved inner tie rod. With the HD adjusters, the absolute worst you can do is bend the outer tie rod, which would not be a catastrophic failure (you could still get home). It would just knock out the toe setting a bit.
My tortion bars are by no means maxed out.... I've done 3" suspension lift and have atleast another 2" that i could go up in the front if my control arms and bumpstops were to allow me. Although, i am not looking at doing so. I quite simply just want the clearance from my larger diameter shocks and the upper control arm. I don't know where i can get a smaller diameter shock that will still allow the front travel that i have at the moment? (You may say about as much as a shopping trolley would flex
) nah, it's not that stiff in the front haha.
You're right, the steering strengthening i really do need to do. I've been in contact with 4wdbits and they referred me to 4wd accessories in christchurch, who i have now sent an email to. They supposedly supply all the Calmini suspension stuff? So i've put through an order for the 'heavy duty replacement steering' and calmini upper control arms. - Hope they are still available! I've noticed that my steering has gone out the window big time with the simex's, to be completely honest it handles like shit on the road but you don't really notice it offroad as much.. Just seems like a bush truck should
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:19 pm
by BlakeNZ
4WD accessories informed me that Calmini do not make a Right Hand Drive version of their HD steering kit. Calmini are also useless to deal with BTW
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:03 pm
by MUDFINDER
BlakeNZ wrote:4WD accessories informed me that Calmini do not make a Right Hand Drive version of their HD steering kit. Calmini are also useless to deal with BTW
Oh that's wonderful....
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:11 pm
by Crash bandicoot
MUDFINDER wrote:BlakeNZ wrote:4WD accessories informed me that Calmini do not make a Right Hand Drive version of their HD steering kit. Calmini are also useless to deal with BTW
Oh that's wonderful....
think about it for a second...they say the dont make one for the RHD.....but that's because they dont need to, the Calmini pitmarn arm and idler arm are semetric lazer cut so can be swapped side to side, same with the track rod.
note for you too blake, the R20 runs small tappers right throughout all six ball joints
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:04 am
by Rusty
Awesome thread! Found a bunch of useful information here
How'd you find re-shimming the diffs? I need to tweak up my tired rear LSD
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:50 pm
by fh2014
Good if you want to spin out on every roundabout in the wet . But yea good I have clutch plates available
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:43 pm
by Crash bandicoot
fh2014 wrote:Good if you want to spin out on every roundabout in the wet . But yea good I have clutch plates available
learn to drift
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:41 pm
by lax2wlg
Rusty wrote:Awesome thread! Found a bunch of useful information here
How'd you find re-shimming the diffs? I need to tweak up my tired rear LSD
The rear is a lock rite, so no shimming, works well. Of course its not butter smooth because it uses dog gears, but I can live with the compromise. ie Cost vs benefit
Front - I didnt reshim, I rebuilt it with new clutches, then added more clutches. Its essentially a spool distributing power 60%/40% to the front wheels. Even when lifting a wheel it will keep splitting power constantly.
Downside - at really low tyre pressure, steering can be heavy. Throttle modulation and clutch techniques can overcome most of this.
Upside - its a 4-pin centre which is a trouble spot for the traditional C200. MQ Patrol guys (same front diff, 2-pin centre) will tell you that it has a habit of wallowing out the centre pin and grenading side gears under heavy use. This makes it a very strong front diff for the weight/power of the vehicle.
Another upside that just occurred to me is that when you install the 4.88 gears in the R200 diff case, you can also use the solid pinion spacer that is factory feature in the C200 Navara rear. Therefore you eliminate crush sleeves, which over time, can fall out of tolerance. This adds to overall durability by keeping the pinion depth consistent.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:26 am
by Rusty
lax2wlg wrote:Rusty wrote:Awesome thread! Found a bunch of useful information here
How'd you find re-shimming the diffs? I need to tweak up my tired rear LSD
The rear is a lock rite, so no shimming, works well. Of course its not butter smooth because it uses dog gears, but I can live with the compromise. ie Cost vs benefit
Front - I didnt reshim, I rebuilt it with new clutches, then added more clutches. Its essentially a spool distributing power 60%/40% to the front wheels. Even when lifting a wheel it will keep splitting power constantly.
Downside - at really low tyre pressure, steering can be heavy. Throttle modulation and clutch techniques can overcome most of this.
Upside - its a 4-pin centre which is a trouble spot for the traditional C200. MQ Patrol guys (same front diff, 2-pin centre) will tell you that it has a habit of wallowing out the centre pin and grenading side gears under heavy use. This makes it a very strong front diff for the weight/power of the vehicle.
Another upside that just occurred to me is that when you install the 4.88 gears in the R200 diff case, you can also use the solid pinion spacer that is factory feature in the C200 Navara rear. Therefore you eliminate crush sleeves, which over time, can fall out of tolerance. This adds to overall durability by keeping the pinion depth consistent.
Mint!
I may just rebuild my rear diff with new clutches and tighten it up some. Be nice to have at least 3 wheel drive when the going get tough
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:00 pm
by Shaun
Thanks for the info! I'm going to do the bearing race mod! been dreading pulling off those compression bushes to discover whats inside but this helps heaps.
Not sold on the 2wd conversion yet, just doesn't look that solid still. Would really like to know if anyone has done a D22 heavy duty Drag Link and Tie Rods and what they thought or if anyone that has a D22 has any problems.
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:46 pm
by lax2wlg
The D22 standard setup is no stronger than the WD21 standard setup. In fact the D22 tierods adjusters are smaller. Its the same setup geometrically.
That 'heavy duty D22 steering upgrade' is all just smoke and mirrors.
I can tell you from lots of testing that the 2wd draglink (quality, Japanese brand) with custom adjusters and steering box idler arm is the strongest. Its the geometry that makes the factory setup dogshit for sustained off road use. The dogbone shape makes the tie rods 'roll' the draglink which wears it out quickly and leads to toe-in under power and eventually bent tie rod end.
If you look at a Humvee or modular military IFS system, the 2wd steering setup is the same geometrically. So you can use all the wheel travel without the tierods 'binding'
But by all means go for it, experiment and see what works for you!
Re: Toughening up Terrano WD21 Front End
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:16 am
by Shaun
Im sold on the 2wd set up now. I wasn't sure if anyone had tried both set ups. Just need to find a 2wd steering box Cheers