Offroad-Express

Just have a read:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story ... d=10497757

Now I know what happens when you have driven a diesel for long or sat behind it

TJ wrote:Just have a read:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story ... d=10497757

Now I know what happens when you have driven a diesel for long or sat behind it

The same experiment with petrol fumes would have long-lasting, possibly permanent effects. Petrols put out particulates too, the difference is they're small enough to bypass your bodies normal filtering system (mucus, hairs in the nose etc) and pass straight into the bloodstream.
Take a look at the exhaust of a petrol engine under full throttle. There's smoke, visible particulates and plenty more that you cannot see.

Not to mention the benzene which can kill you not only in unburnt petrol, but also in the emissions of a petrol vehicle.
Remember that petrol engine exhaust has been successfully used for euthanasia and suicide countless numbers of times.

Vehicle emissions laws are focussed on several individual elements, they are hydrocarbons, CO2, CO, NOx and particulates above a certain size.
The emissions they don't currently measure are a very real cause for concern.

KiwiBacon wrote:The same experiment with petrol fumes would have long-lasting, possibly permanent effects. Petrols put out particulates too, the difference is they're small enough to bypass your bodies normal filtering system (mucus, hairs in the nose etc) and pass straight into the bloodstream.
Take a look at the exhaust of a petrol engine under full throttle. There's smoke, visible particulates and plenty more that you cannot see.

They were not talking about full throttle, were they. Also how often do you drive full throttle. I am not saying petrol is a saint and diesel is the devil, I just provided a link to a scientific study. You are welcome to make whatever inference you like.

KiwiBacon wrote:Not to mention the benzene which can kill you not only in unburnt petrol, but also in the emissions of a petrol vehicle. Remember that petrol engine exhaust has been successfully used for euthanasia and suicide countless numbers of times.

Sure, but you and I both know its not the benzene that kills those people but oxygen starvation due to carbon monoxide poising from the exhaust. You can have similar sickness feeling from a poorly ventilated highrise building without forced air circulation, the carbon dioxide levels start rising as people breathe but without fresh supply of oxygen they will start falling over after a while. Now who "exhausts" that CO2, us humans! So we must be bad for ourselves as well.

KiwiBacon wrote:Vehicle emissions laws are focussed on several individual elements, they are hydrocarbons, CO2, CO, NOx and particulates above a certain size. The emissions they don't currently measure are a very real cause for concern.

Perhaps, but I can guarantee you that my accumulated emissions over a life time would be negligible compared to a volcano eruption (even for a brief period). How about we seal up those volcanos so that they don't pollute as well.

TJ wrote:They were not talking about full throttle, were they. Also how often do you drive full throttle. I am not saying petrol is a saint and diesel is the devil, I just provided a link to a scientific study. You are welcome to make whatever inference you like.

They didn't mention throttle at all, they just mentioned fumes. I'd take diesel fumes over petrol anyday. Especially now they've taken the sulphur from diesel and the lead from petrol, many consider the lead was preferable to the benzene.

That's not a scientific study, that's a journalists take on a study which they may not even have read. Being the owner of a petrol 4wd and posting it in the diesel forum gives you the appearance of bridge underdweller.

TJ wrote:Sure, but you and I both know its not the benzene that kills those people but oxygen starvation due to carbon monoxide poising from the exhaust. You can have similar sickness feeling from a poorly ventilated highrise building without forced air circulation, the carbon dioxide levels start rising as people breathe but without fresh supply of oxygen they will start falling over after a while. Now who "exhausts" that CO2, us humans! So we must be bad for ourselves as well.

Oxygen displacement will kill you within about 3-5 minutes. Get air and you'll recover. But the Benzene will give you cancer, the Ozone will be eating your lungs from the inside and the small particulates will be circulating through your blood.

KiwiBacon wrote:They didn't mention throttle at all, they just mentioned fumes. I'd take diesel fumes over petrol anyday. Especially now they've taken the sulphur from diesel and the lead from petrol, many consider the lead was preferable to the benzene.

That's not a scientific study, that's a journalists take on a study which they may not even have read. Being the owner of a petrol 4wd and posting it in the diesel forum gives you the appearance of bridge underdweller.

Now now lets not get serious before a long weekend.

TJ wrote:Oxygen displacement will kill you within about 3-5 minutes. Get air and you'll recover. But the Benzene will give you cancer, the Ozone will be eating your lungs from the inside and the small particulates will be circulating through your blood.

We all have to die one day, so why worry - be happy. My blood has been replaced with caffiene anyway! Diesel fumes or petrol, I personally don't really care much about it either way.

Don't worry TJ, the Diesel people have to drive full throttle to get anywhere so they ARE more dangerous

NJV6 wrote:Don't worry TJ, the Diesel people have to drive full throttle to get anywhere so they ARE more dangerous

Are you concerned for those in front of us or behind us?

KiwiBacon wrote:Are you concerned for those in front of us or behind us?

People in front are fine because diesel is just trying to catch up with them

But seriously though, some of the newer diesels are being fitted with particulate filter in the exhaust system. I wonder how effective those kinds of systems would be in the long run. I would have thought like the air filter, these particulate filters would start to clog with time. Any comments on that?

TJ wrote:But seriously though, some of the newer diesels are being fitted with particulate filter in the exhaust system. I wonder how effective those kinds of systems would be in the long run. I would have thought like the air filter, these particulate filters would start to clog with time. Any comments on that?

They burn themselves clean ("regenerate") every now and then.
Basically the computer drops the turbo boost right down to raise the exhaust temp high enough (above about 650 deg C) to burn it clean similar to a cat converter.
There are some issues with vehicles that run at low load the whole time and never manage to reach that exhaust temp.
I think CAT have added an afterburner (how cool is that, a factory fitted afterburner) to solve the problem. Not sure how others get around it automatically, but if it does clog, then it's either drive the vehicle hard enough to burn it out or clean it out manually.

KiwiBacon wrote:They burn themselves clean ("regenerate") every now and then.
Basically the computer drops the turbo boost right down to raise the exhaust temp high enough (above about 650 deg C) to burn it clean similar to a cat converter.
There are some issues with vehicles that run at low load the whole time and never manage to reach that exhaust temp.
I think CAT have added an afterburner (how cool is that, a factory fitted afterburner) to solve the problem. Not sure how others get around it automatically, but if it does clog, then it's either drive the vehicle hard enough to burn it out or clean it out manually.

I guess kind of like a Ferari tune up. I do that to mine to burn off excess moisture from components if I have not driven it aggressively (or on long trips) for a couple of weeks. I know Jeep Wranglers with 2.8 TD came with a particulate filter last year in Aussie/NZ, but the design going forward is changing. Particulate filter would not be required (or so I understand). BTW, last year was the first time Wranglers came out with a factory diesel option in international markets (not North American market). Who knows, I might end up with a four door Wrangler Rubicon diesel (if it ever comes out) - more a tui ad.

TJ wrote:I guess kind of like a Ferari tune up. I do that to mine to burn off excess moisture from components if I have not driven it aggressively (or on long trips) for a couple of weeks. I know Jeep Wranglers with 2.8 TD came with a particulate filter last year in Aussie/NZ, but the design going forward is changing. Particulate filter would not be required (or so I understand). BTW, last year was the first time Wranglers came out with a factory diesel option in international markets (not North American market). Who knows, I might end up with a four door Wrangler Rubicon diesel (if it ever comes out) - more a tui ad.

First I've heard of the diesel wrangler, same drivetrain as the cherokee?

I have heard that if the rules on NOx were relaxed, then EGR wouldn't be necessary and particulate filters wouldn't be either.
So if they find a working alternative to deal with NOx without EGR then clean diesels without filters are a reality.

Because the engine in my 4wd weighs about 400kg it takes a while to warm up. When it was my sole vehicle it'd get smoky if only used for short trips. A foot flat highway run every now and then did wonders.
Of course I've rebuilt it since then, so it might not still be a problem.

KiwiBacon wrote:First I've heard of the diesel wrangler, same drivetrain as the cherokee?

I have heard that if the rules on NOx were relaxed, then EGR wouldn't be necessary and particulate filters wouldn't be either.
So if they find a working alternative to deal with NOx without EGR then clean diesels without filters are a reality.

Because the engine in my 4wd weighs about 400kg it takes a while to warm up. When it was my sole vehicle it'd get smoky if only used for short trips. A foot flat highway run every now and then did wonders.
Of course I've rebuilt it since then, so it might not still be a problem.

Its not the same as Cherokee or even 3.0 Grand Cherokee CRD. You can read the specs here:

http://www.jeep.co.nz/jeep2008/admin/documentlibrary/WranglerSpecSheet_LR.pdf

The only thing is the Rubicon (with factory air lockers front and rear, electronic sway bar disconnects, 4:1 transfer case, 4.10 dif ratios, Rock rails, 255/75R17 tyres - roughly 32x10R17) only comes in Petrol. The only thing missing on a Rubicon is a winch from the factory.