Home made Hydrogen generator for my Feroza

[meece4x4]

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spent all weekend working on the Hydrogen generator for the Diahatsu, been busy designing and refining the genarator coils over the last few weeks, finally got them to produce 1.7-1.9 litres per minute of HHO (Hydroxy) installed the coil in the Daihatsu and did some testing.

drained fuel tank ....

Added $20 fuel (9.95 Litres)
drove 105 km open road driving with Hydrogen genarator turn OFF @ an average speed of 90kph (hey thats as fast as a Fez will go) before it started to splutter and die ran out totally at 106 km


refuelled with $20 fuel for return trip. turned Hydrogen genarator ON for return trip. same route @ same average (90kph) speed.
first sputter at 150km and finally died at 152km.

thats a 47km increase on my usual distance ... altho i will need to do way more testing as i cant base everything on the one test but inital signs are promising for a major saving in fuel costs,

as a matter of interest mid range torque was up as well on the return trip, i notice i wasnt chopping down to 4th on the hills like i normally would have done. ... hmmm definatly more testing needed.

Note I havnt played with the O2 sensor on the exhaust yet, it's still in default factory tune, my next project after the generator is to build a EFIE (EFI enhancher) this will give me the ability to "tell" the ECU to lean out the fuel a little more on highway driving with even more savings

ANYONE ELSE PLAYING AROUND WITH THIS STUFF?? if so lets here what worked and what didnt ... my generator is very much a Macgver rigged system at the moment ... mainly because i didnt want to spend a lot of money on the system if it didnt work .. now that ive proved there is definatly "something" in this im planing on buiding a more profesional looking generator.

[Heath]

Would this work with a non efi engine (trust old carby 2.2 courier)?

[Dace]

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spent all weekend working on the Hydrogen generator for the Diahatsu, been busy designing and refining the genarator coils over the last few weeks, finally got them to produce 1.7-1.9 litres per minute of HHO (Hydroxy) installed the coil in the Daihatsu and did some testing.

drained fuel tank ....

Added $20 fuel (9.95 Litres)
drove 105 km open road driving with Hydrogen genarator turn OFF @ an average speed of 90kph (hey thats as fast as a Fez will go) before it started to splutter and die ran out totally at 106 km


refuelled with $20 fuel for return trip. turned Hydrogen genarator ON for return trip. same route @ same average (90kph) speed.
first sputter at 150km and finally died at 152km.

thats a 47km increase on my usual distance ... altho i will need to do way more testing as i cant base everything on the one test but inital signs are promising for a major saving in fuel costs,

as a matter of interest mid range torque was up as well on the return trip, i notice i wasnt chopping down to 4th on the hills like i normally would have done. ... hmmm definatly more testing needed.

Note I havnt played with the O2 sensor on the exhaust yet, it's still in default factory tune, my next project after the generator is to build a EFIE (EFI enhancher) this will give me the ability to "tell" the ECU to lean out the fuel a little more on highway driving with even more savings

ANYONE ELSE PLAYING AROUND WITH THIS STUFF?? if so lets here what worked and what didnt ... my generator is very much a Macgver rigged system at the moment ... mainly because i didnt want to spend a lot of money on the system if it didnt work .. now that ive proved there is definatly "something" in this im planing on buiding a more profesional looking generator.

WOW, interesting, I thought this was all shit but I may need to take this seriously

Is this technology applicable to diesel?

[Heath]

Maybe you should make up a few units for sale here and we can all try it. I'd be willing to give it a go on my courier. Just dont have the time or patience to rig one myself.

Still not completely convinced this isnt a con either.

Heath

[meece4x4]

Would this work with a non efi engine (trust old carby 2.2 courier)?

older the better it seems ... carb'ed cars notice a larger improvement it seems (if you believe the hype) ... as for making a couple of kits ... maybe but id like to do a little more tinkering on mine first just in case it all turns pear shaped, i was acually quite cynical to the whole water from fuel hype, however there *is* something in the hybrid system ... running your car solely on hydrogen from this system is impossible.

have to admid ANYTHING that can save fuel these days needs to be looked at, even if it only improves the exhaust emissions it'll be worth looking at

[Dace]

I think I saw an ad on TV that Campbell (TV3 monday 7pm) is doing going to check these out on his show.

Might be worth watching.

[KiwiBacon]

You need to make you tests a little more scientific. Like averaging over multiple fillups, not a oncer and calling it done.
I have yet to find anyone who's put these systems through a real test and got a good result.

I have "run out" with 15 litres still in my tank, fuel sloshed to the sides. Would have made for some fantastic fuel consumption figures if I trusted that tank, but my long term average doesn't change.

There is no such thing as HHO. The only people who call it that are scammers and people who don't understand chemistry (often both).
Electrolysis produces hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2) but it is painfully slow. What you'll be producing with your little pot will be mostly water vapour. The amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced is so tiny it'll make absolutely no difference to your engine, but water injection has some effect.

[smurf182]

Also, as I suggested in another thread on the same topic, this violates the first law of thermodynamics. Electrolysis of water has an efficiency much much less than 100%. Thus the energy required to dissociate water into it's component parts is greater than that gained by combusting it (the hydrogen).

[TJ]

You need to make you tests a little more scientific. Like averaging over multiple fillups, not a oncer and calling it done.
I have yet to find anyone who's put these systems through a real test and got a good result.

Agree with the need for more scientific testing. You will have to do this test on a closed test track with as many variables as possible unchanged. This is important because, for example, driving to Hamilton from Auckland gives me better mileage because on the return trip I am going up the Bombay Hills (not down as previously). Also, head wind and tail wind effect can cause false improvements (ask any airline operating between Australia and NZ and what jet stream does when its in your favour).

I am glad you have the time and patience to do this kind of tinkering, but lets make it scientific and see where it goes. You might be on to something. Don't be discouraged, success takes many tries.

[BrentC]

ex TradeMe


http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Performance/Fuel-systems/auction-137006005.htm

[Steve_t647]

Sorry boring technical Information

[Heath]

I think I saw an ad on TV that Campbell (TV3 monday 7pm) is doing going to check these out on his show.

Might be worth watching.

Tonight I think.

[Heath]

Anyway a water injection system would be easy to try just hook up the window washer bottle to the intake in a draw through system (pretty fine we know what too much water will do) I would test this on a petrol first! you would need very little water in a diesel too much and it will hydraulic a petrol would probibly miss then stall before damage occured.

I remember an old guy driving around in an old triumph (I think) with an outboard tank full of water in the boot hooked up to somehow inject it into the intake(dont ask me how) this was 10-15 years ago.

Maybe the increase is as simple as you say, with the water vapour (steam) being drawn into the system and increasing the pressure etc. End of the day if it works and lowers fuel usage (maybe check engine temps, exhaust, emmissions, etc to see what effect it is having) then maybe it is still a good idea.

Just because the origional flashy science explanation doesnt fit, may be people are looking too far and being too clever and overlooking the easy explanation. (Occams(sp?) Razor perhaps - the simplest explanation is usually correct).

If it works and I have to fill it with snake oil ocassionally or put a magnet from the fridge on it but it still works who cares. a saving in fuel usage is a saving. I will wait with baited breath for a result.

[meece4x4]

You need to make you tests a little more scientific. Like averaging over multiple fillups, not a oncer and calling it done.
I have yet to find anyone who's put these systems through a real test and got a good result.

I have "run out" with 15 litres still in my tank, fuel sloshed to the sides. Would have made for some fantastic fuel consumption figures if I trusted that tank, but my long term average doesn't change.

There is no such thing as HHO. The only people who call it that are scammers and people who don't understand chemistry (often both).
Electrolysis produces hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2) but it is painfully slow. What you'll be producing with your little pot will be mostly water vapour. The amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced is so tiny it'll make absolutely no difference to your engine, but water injection has some effect.

i for one am a sceptic as well and sure dont beleive the "My Chevy Blazer does 400MPG with this system), as noted in a prevous post ive only done one single 100km test and am the first to agree more testing is needed, i plan to run the system over the coming few months and see for myself. nothing like first hand experience rather than listening to other people.

however people seem to not be aware that you dont need a lot of hydrogen to be of benfit, even small amounts help with the detonation of the standard fuel, as for the laws of thermal dynamics ...yes they apply ..thats why you CAN NEVER run your car this was on pure hydrogen generated by this process it is just too ineffecient to do it this way ... stored hydrogen fuel cells on the other hand .. however this system does little more than add a small amont of hydroxy/water vapour (which by the way denonates with a very impressive explosion when lit!) into the air/fuel mixture again this can be the "known" befits of water injection being noted.... hell for what it cost me id settle with a 2% increase in economy and it will pay for it'self within a week.

[Heath]

Keep us posted. I for one am curious as hell. I started out a sceptic (a small part of me still shouts "it cant work") but "you dont know what you dont know" amd I am willing to watch and learn.

[meece4x4]

Keep us posted. I for one am curious as hell. I started out a sceptic (a small part of me still shouts "it cant work") but "you dont know what you dont know" amd I am willing to watch and learn.

LOL there in lies my philolsophy in life ... if everyone listened to "expurts" when they said "it cant be done" we would never had advanced as far as we have. ... i want to prove to myself one way or another that either this IS a suppressed technology that people hint of or or it is a load of sh#t.
hell im having a lot of fun with this project ... has cost me less than a 50 gram pack of tobacco (so ive been told anyway) ... if nothing else releasing the hydroxy into soapy water and lighting the bubbles that float off is a real cool party trick. ...kids do not try this at home!!! they go BANG and are really really loud.

Leave you with a small thought.

A BUMBLE BEE SHOULD NOT FLY if you apply the laws of aerodynamics to it.

[Steve_t647]

Sorry boring technical Information

[meece4x4]

I believe that the system is doing nothing other than producing water vapour and increasing your compression, as a side effect water in the combustion chamber (denser air) is also a knock inhibitor, this will allow an efi car to adjust the timing further forward on leaner fuel.

which saves fuel ... hell i dont care "HOW" it happens as long as i get some savings ... im not one for maths or text books on this subject (get enough of that through my work studies) i prefer to "tinker"
simple fact is things are so tight ecconomically for us that every little bit helps... our fuel bill and im talking about just important travel is exceeding our weekly budget. due to the distance we live from work, 4x4 ing is already out of the question and im getting to the stage where i can not justify owning one anymore for the amount of it i do these days.

[KiwiBacon]

i want to prove to myself one way or another that either this IS a suppressed technology that people hint of or or it is a load of sh#t.

Supressed techology, yeah good one, that is just a line of BS trotted out as an excuse for not having data to prove this stuff works.
If you want water injection, there are easier ways to do it that tax your alternator less.

As for the bumblebee, that's an urban legend.

[meece4x4]

i want to prove to myself one way or another that either this IS a suppressed technology that people hint of or or it is a load of sh#t.

Supressed techology, yeah good one, that is just a line of BS trotted out as an excuse for not having data to prove this stuff works.
If you want water injection, there are easier ways to do it that tax your alternator less.

As for the bumblebee, that's an urban legend.

Ah well ... you carry on paying $2.12+ or $1.85+ for Diesel until this weekend when it's bound to go up again ... unless you have actually built one and proven beyond a shadow of doubt one way or another that it does or dosnt work i think I'll carry on tinkering if it carrys on with the saving i noted in the test run last weekend then cool I SAVE MONEY ... if it dosnt and this is just a load of bollicks oh well ive wasted $20, a couple of hours of my weekend, about 144kb of ORE server space with my posts and 15 minutes or so of peoples time reading these posts.


oh btw Steve_t647 because im not using a plate design (ive gone with coils) my amp draw is only 3.2 amps @ 12.34V accross the teminals ... my Fez has 2x130 amp hour batterys in it and a uprated altenator (had to uprate the electrical system when i put the winch in and one of the perks of my job see's me come accross heavy duty batterys free every couple of months or so) so current draw isnt too much of a problem.
next step is the EFIE module,

[KiwiBacon]

Ah well ... you carry on paying $2.12+ or $1.85+ for Diesel until this weekend when it's bound to go up again ... unless you have actually built one and proven beyond a shadow of doubt one way or another that it does or dosnt work i think I'll carry on tinkering if it carrys on with the saving i noted in the test run last weekend then cool I SAVE MONEY ... if it dosnt and this is just a load of bollicks oh well ive wasted $20, a couple of hours of my weekend, about 144kb of ORE server space with my posts and 15 minutes or so of peoples time reading these posts.

You'll be paying exactly the same amount. But since I'm driving around town in a diesel car which does 350km on 20l of diesel, I'll be using far less than you ever will.

Some real tests on fuel consumption will show your device doesn't work. But the people trialling these systems seem unable to setup a fair and balanced test, maybe out of fear that the savings won't actually be there.

Leaning out the fuel may save some fuel, it may also kill your engine. Tinkering without understanding can be an expensive hobby.

[fweddy]

Keep up the tinkering meece.

We all tinker with our trucks in different ways, for some reason when it comes to fuel savings people react different.

As you have clearly stated it needs more trailing but your preliminary test gives reason to prove it further. There could have been many factors that give the increase but you can't rule out the system as being one of them, and it seems to be the obvious initially, as you say, regardless how it works. I have yet to meet some one that has actually played with this system to any provable extent that has proven it worthless. At the same time, I haven't personally seen conclusive evidence that it does work wonders either. Hence the enjoyment of tinkering.

Was pondering Steve_t647's points (which is great input). It could be possible that its not actually doing the hydroxy thing but rather that its water vapor, but it leaves a question, for me any way. These systems are certainly putting off something flammable (Meece's 'banging bubbles' for instance). So its separating something and creating something combustible, so what is this and is it usable. I know you mention that it may be joined back together by the time it enters the engine so ends up as water vapor again and that could be a possibility but hey there is some bang for your buck worth playing with.

Also the first law of thermodynamics has been raised regarding it, I'm struggling to see how this defies that law?

Even if it ends up costing you hundreds over a few months, or even a blown engine, as long as you are enjoying doing what you are doing with it, and even the challenge of proving it doesn't work, then you are still on tops. Many people spend lots of money to put a provenly bad fuel into their system each weekend and any other excuse they can and end up with a 'blown head' and some how that's acceptable, quite 'cool' in fact!

I know often these types of discussion seem to end up looking like debates and that's one of the blessedness' of electronics, but consider these comments coming from me leaning against my muddy cruiser chewing on a hunk of willow stick amongst friends after the excitement of another recovery is over and we discuss the water in the hydroliced engine... (hmmm that much was too much)...

[tgaguy1]

Yep, keep it up Meece. I am watching these results with interest.

[smurf182]

Also the first law of thermodynamics has been raised regarding it, I'm struggling to see how this defies that law?

If this actually worked, you're basically getting more energy out of the system than you've put in. That's impossible, from our current understanding of the universe anyway, as it goes against the law of conservation of energy (and thus the 1st law of thermodynamics). Electrolysis of water is very inefficient, it would have to be 100% efficient or greater to provide a benefit and this isn't even possible in theory.

Though it would be pretty cool however if the world's first perpetual motion machine became known through ORE..

[Steve_t647]

Sorry boring technical Information

[KiwiBacon]

Funnily enough, this is on almost every message board I visit on the internet, the claims are the same but the proof is lacking.

Take a read of these two for a start:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/sutra1410 ... 63cb3c9d8a
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic144125.php

[fweddy]

Also the first law of thermodynamics has been raised regarding it, I'm struggling to see how this defies that law?

If this actually worked, you're basically getting more energy out of the system than you've put in. That's impossible, from our current understanding of the universe anyway, as it goes against the law of conservation of energy (and thus the 1st law of thermodynamics). Electrolysis of water is very inefficient, it would have to be 100% efficient or greater to provide a benefit and this isn't even possible in theory.

Though it would be pretty cool however if the world's first perpetual motion machine became known through ORE..

yeah but... lol... where is there any perpetual motion happening here?

If the system was claiming to use the battery to 'seperate' the Hs and Os which ran the engine which charged the battery which 'seperated' the Hs and Os which ran the engine which powered the car with no further water added then yeah, that defies the LoT no.1

But thats not the system. There is a fair portion of fossil fuel (Petrol or Diesel - which was there before the extra system) and the Water, which both need replenishing. These are your outside energy sources to keep things happening. If you discounted them from the picture, well our trucks should stand still even with their std engines.

Am I missing something still?

Sure there might be reasons why it might not work, but I don't see this law as one of them. yet...

Looks like ORE won't be the first to discover anything of the sorts unfortunately!

[turoa]

are you using a flux capacitor?

[KiwiBacon]

are you using a flux capacitor?

Two, seperated by a hiclone and energised by a girdle spring.

[KiwiBacon]

yeah but... lol... where is there any perpetual motion happening here?

If the system was claiming to use the battery to 'seperate' the Hs and Os which ran the engine which charged the battery which 'seperated' the Hs and Os which ran the engine which powered the car with no further water added then yeah, that defies the LoT no.1

But thats not the system. There is a fair portion of fossil fuel (Petrol or Diesel - which was there before the extra system) and the Water, which both need replenishing. These are your outside energy sources to keep things happening. If you discounted them from the picture, well our trucks should stand still even with their std engines.

Am I missing something still?

Sure there might be reasons why it might not work, but I don't see this law as one of them. yet...

Looks like ORE won't be the first to discover anything of the sorts unfortunately!

Claiming a benefit from a fuel source derived (at poor efficiency) from the engine you're feeding it back into is the "perpetual motion" part.

You should google "dennis lee", a long time advocate of "free energy" devices (aka perpetual motion machines) and purveyor of these fine HHO generators.
He has websites dedicated to the "free energy" cause.

After all, it's morally wrong to let a sucker keep their money. If you don't take it, someone else will.