Which 413 transfer gears to get?

[UBZ]

So I have finally decided to splash out and buy some lower transfer case gears for my 413. I would appreciated some input on the decision making process

Its an 85 413 ,G13A ,SPUA ,3.9 Diff Ratio ,Running 31 x 10.5 (possibly looking at running 32's at a later date)

I am sick of running out of power going up hill , running away when going down hill and having to rev the crap out of the engine on the open road. (I"m pretty sure this is what killed my last G13A)

Main use will be on Clay / Mud / Sand / Vehicle will be used on road a lot.

I have narrowed my search down after a lot of net research to two possible ratios. I would prefer solid one piece billet gears instead of fabricating /welding gears up for a rock lobster.
4.16:1 (Calmini or Trail Tough)
5.12:1 (Calmini)

31's are approximately 19% taller than the stock 27

4.16:1 gears have the following specs
12.2% Reduction in High Range
83.6% Reduction in Low Range

5.12:1 gears have the following specs
18.3% Reduction in High Range
127% Reduction in Low Range

Crawl Ratios (1st Gear / Transfer Low / Diff Ratio)
3.65 x 4.16 x 3.9 = 59.22
3.65 x 5.12 x 3.9 = 73.17

The guys on Outer Limits seem to think that the 5.12:1 transfer gears would work really well with the 3.9 diffs and would put my high range ratios back to stock for road driving.

My concern is that the 5.12:1 transfer gears would be to low (127% Reduction) for general NZ conditions (rock crawling not included)
Can you go to Low?

The benefit of the 5.12:1 transfer gears it that they would handle up to 33" tire with out doing R&P if i want to go bigger at a later date.

Opinions / Suggestions welcome before I fork out $$$

Cheers Chris

[timotheus]

having to rev the crap out of the engine on the open road. (I"m pretty sure this is what killed my last G13A)

4.16:1 gears have the following specs
12.2% Reduction in High Range
83.6% Reduction in Low Range

5.12:1 gears have the following specs
18.3% Reduction in High Range
127% Reduction in Low Range

and would put my high range ratios back to stock for road driving.

Sorry, did I miss something, or if your already ringing the nads off it before reducing it further anrt you just going to aggravate the problem?

[UBZ]

31's are approximately 19% larger than stock

18% reduction in High with the 5.12's puts the ratios back to stock

edited:

[timotheus]

31's are approximately 19% larger than stock (meaning im doing over 4000RPM at 100K)

18% reduction in High with the 5.12's puts the ratios back to stock (approx 3200 RPM at 100k)

Im sitting here missing a wisdom tooth so burn me if im wrong.

I think you've got your wires crossed. Incresing the rolling diameter lowers your revs-speed.
So running 31's should have lowered your revs at 100kmph

Reducing the ratios will increase the revs/speed.

Have a look at the equations you posted before and change a couple of figures up and it will lower the sum. (lower sum = higher ratio = less revs to turn)

If you truely already have 4000rpm at 100km Id say somethings been done already.

[moonhopper]

I think you have answered your own question. The lower ratio brings the truck back in line to stock and gives you better options down the line. And you can allways change up a gear if it's to low, just my thoughts. Cheers

[lilpigzuk]

not sure on your calcs
A 4.16 should do you fine for NZ conditions. Ive run one for quite a few years - not on road though. 5.12 may get a little low for off road - you may find yourself going from low too high range a bit on any open off road driving. See if anyone local too you has one and take their zuk for a spin. If your out South Auckland way have a hoon in my one of mine and see what you think.
I went the cheaper route and got the gears made, way cheaper than one piece and just as strong

[UBZ]

Yeah just went back and checked my calculations on RPM

Had them completely up the whack
This is a new area for me. Still trying to get it all straight in my head.

I know that i had to rev the crap out of the old engine to get it up to speed on road , may just have been the motor on its way out.

[QUADRACER]

i run the same set up on my Samuri with 4.16 gears and with 31 `s it just right , any lower and top speed in lower ratio
would be approx 25kph in fifth gear wide open

[Rotazuk]

I'd go with a 4.16 for a few reasons .
One you say road use , t/case gears do not correct the speedo . 12% change , not too bad probably closer to acurate than it was but an 18% change would put it way off and the wof man may start asking questions .
Know of a few machined gears that have had no issues so would go that route and save some $$$ for a ring and pinion change if you go bigger tyres .
5.12 would give you a very low reverse , forward you can always change up but not reverse .

Should be a nice setup once you have it sorted , what ever you do .

Chris

[QUADRACER]

try these guys, have brought a lot form here
and very helpful and great service, you will find prices great too
ask for Sean
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/samurai.htm

[icekayak]

May be worth trying tepuke partsworld also, I know he was getting some made at one stage but hit copyright issues or something... But may have sorted it by now.

[Big-AL]

come take mine for a drive sometime, its on a mates farm so you can take it for a little drive around the farm, and its off a sealed road so should get it up to 100 kph. if that clutch is working my brother might be able to tell you what the gear reduction is, im not sure. can make it up most hills in 2nd low, only rarely do i need to chage into 1st, and as u know, i am running 32 simex's. im away this weekend, and get back late sunday the weekend after. but if you want to come up the weekend after that, we can probably go for a bit of a mud run, we have a few little tracks around some of the local farms

[icekayak]

Think their 4.16 (cut and weld variety)...

[UBZ]

Cheers Guys

Looks like the 4.16:1 Ratio is the go.
Hadn't thought about reverse and the speedo. Seems ive been doing just a little to much reading on Outers

Was quite impressed (Again) at how well your truck run on the weekend AL . (was thinking about it in comparison to mine and that's what sparked this all off). Always keen to go for a bit of a mud run. Give me a bell when you get back.

I wasn't sure about the strength of welded gears , but as I have been quoted $1100 for just the Calmini gears. It is looking alot more attractive and their seem to be a few people running them with no probs

http://www.mallo.nl/english/4.16.htm managed to find this site on the Rock Lobster.

Seems to be pretty straight forward as per the pic below


Will need the following

413 Transfer (Have 2 of these )
84 410 Transfer (With Light)or just gears (Need to find one of these)
Transfer Rebuild Kit (import or source local )
Gear Machining and Welding (Can anyone recommend a good place to have this done)
Re-enforce transfer case mounts

Anything else I'm missing

After all that i might even have enough left over for a locker

[HedgeBoar]

Firstly, the transfer case gears don't affect the speedo at all - speedo is taken off the output shaft, so it will be the same as it is now. Only changing diffs or tyre sizes will affect it.

Personally, I'd go for lower than 4.16. It'll be fine for mild stuff, but I reckon you'll find yourself slipping the clutch in really rough/uphill stuff, especially if you plan on 32"s or larger. I have 6.5:1 tcase and 3.7:1 diffs with 31"s, and it works well for me. I do sometimes have to go into high range for open tracks, but it makes high 1st fairly low so that is no problem. I can still go 40km/hr or so in low 5th.
Only thing I really want is a couple of reverse gears - reverse low is a bit annoying sometimes!

Main issue with welded gears is noise & vibrations, not strength. But as long as you get them done by someone who knows what tehy are doing, should be sweet.

[UBZ]

Found this on line

Gives more support in favor of the 4.16 gears and Ring and pinon change at a later date to run a bigger tire.
I am also pretty sure my 31's will only measure up at 30.5

Courtesy of Trailtough
While doing transfer case gears is probably the biggest bang for the buck and a quick-fix, it is definitely a lousy way to try and create a reliable, trouble-free drivetrain. So think about this for a minute...you put on larger tires, so your pinion now becomes TWICE as hard to turn putting TWICE as much stress on the u-joints, transfer case mounts and the transfer case itself, as well as the brackets on the side of the frame that holds the transfer case in place. It leads to problem chasing such as having to use unnecessary large and heavy driveshafts, having the bolts pull out of the transfer case on the long arm side, having the mounting boss break off of the transfer case or having the short arm side bracket start to tear off of the frame rail. It is because you have given your transfer case up to 3 times as much power by putting in lower gears and now the transfer case wants to do flip-flops in its mount. Many people consider only the POWER issue of this equation as opposed to considering the STRESS LOADING situation as well. You need to change the ring and pinion gears also - relative to your tire size - which will make the driveshaft easy to turn again, taking all of the strain off of these parts - just like it was made from the factory when the smaller tires were on it. It is a mistake to do all of your gear reduction at one point. Especially that far up the mechanical chain. Do yourself a favor....reduce the ratio at the ring and pinions relative to the size tire you want to run, then select the transfer case gears that will best meet your 4-wheeling needs. By going this route, you will have a well thought out and trouble-free drivetrain, working well within the parameters of strain that the parts can and will reliably handle.

[lneil]

May I suggest that you consider a set of Vitara/Escudo diff' ring & pinion gears for the reasons outlined in the last post.

Auto diff's will give you 4.69 ratio, manuals are 5.12. I'm putting 5.12's in my daughter's auto, so would have a spare set of 4.69's if you wanted them (cheap), but you may want to find some a lot closer to home as I'm in Nelson. I'm not sure, but I think only one end off the Vitara is a bolt-in, so you also may need to find diff's from two sources to get a pair.

[Rotazuk]

Firstly, the transfer case gears don't affect the speedo at all - speedo is taken off the output shaft, so it will be the same as it is now. Only changing diffs or tyre sizes will affect it.

You are correct in saying that t/case does not affect the speedo . My point is if you fit large tyres the speedo goes out so to correct for the large tyres with a tranfercase gear set , leaves your speedo out . On the other hand if you only corrected for tyre size with a diff ratio change the speedo would stay correct ( realitively ) but there would be no low ratio improvement .

IMHO the best solution is as I said , a 4.16 for a much better low and then correct for left over tyre size with a diff ratio thus keeping the speedo close to correct .

[quote] I do sometimes have to go into high range for open tracks, but it makes high 1st fairly low so that is no problem. I can still go 40km/hr or so in low 5th.
quote]

How low is high 1st , for a daily driver it sounds a bit low . At the end of the day its what you want it set up for and the terrain it will be used on . you guys down south get more rocks in Akl were I am we only have farm tracks and mud etc so ultra low gearing is not so important compared to getting a tyre clearing mud .

Take someones for a spin and see what you think .

Chris

[UBZ]

May I suggest that you consider a set of Vitara/Escudo diff' ring & pinion gears for the reasons outlined in the last post.

Auto diff's will give you 4.69 ratio, manuals are 5.12. I'm putting 5.12's in my daughter's auto, so would have a spare set of 4.69's if you wanted them (cheap), but you may want to find some a lot closer to home as I'm in Nelson. I'm not sure, but I think only one end off the Vitara is a bolt-in, so you also may need to find diff's from two sources to get a pair.

Ive been told that the front Vitara diff is a straight bolt in (alloy casing ) It just a matter of changing the side gears to match the axle. And that you can also use the Vitra R&P in the 413 housing with the use of a spacer ring.

Auto 4.69's Would put the ratios just about back to stock with 32's and the a 4.16 transfer would lower the gearing nicely.

Anyone used vitra diffs /R&P before?

[Rotazuk]

Have not used them before but about too . The vitara centres are only two spider , I really think your better off to get the spacer's etc and use the suzuki 4 spider centers . I have brought two diff heads off someone down south that were set up with vitara centers in a 413 housing , ie steel case but two spider center , the rear spiders were stripped out ( this may have been caused by something being left in the diff head thou ) This would be the cheapest way for bang for buck but you should be abe to find the spacers at a reasonable price somewhere .

Chris

[Denby]

Continuing with the idea of changing diff ratios, has anybody had any experience with different rations in a Jimny?

From what I can make out the rear shouldn't be a problem as it is basically a Samurai centre, however the front is a high pinion unit which is basically a new design.

Does anybody know if the front pinion is identical (length, bearing position, gear bevels etc) to any of the other Suzuki diffs?

[UBZ]

Found this article on Zuwharrie. Has alot of info on using Vitara/Escudo diff parts on the 413/Samurai.

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,3975.0.html