Offroad-Express

Guys we need some help. At the Manukau WC on the weekend a lot of guys asked for a set of consistent club class rules for next year. This sounds like a great idea and I sure plenty of other people have some ideas. I've started a thread here http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/discussion/topic/44 to get a some discussion going.
The whole point of this is to make it easier for organisers and competitors. So we need yu guys to tell us what you want in the class.
The one comment I have is that some of the trucks at the Manukau comp looked like they could have competed in an Challenge class comp. but the drivers were either out of practice, were new to the sport or driving instead of crewing. Do the competitors have a problem with this? This is an observation not a criticism of anyone.

definatly the one we discussed about the live rope rule wich i dont think i need to write it all down as you were thinking the same thing.

yes and no to the full on comp trucks, awesum to see them in action and good to get ideas and processes for better and faster recoverys but it is kind of demoralising to get thrashed that hard but then again....WE BEAT EVERYONE ON A NIGHT STAGE!!!! WOOOOO HOOOOO !!!! but i diddnt finish the event so i cant talk

willcome back to you with more as i remember them.

cheers

Yea, I didn't think I would be able to enter so was a bit surprised that the entry requirements for the Manukau Comp were what they were (but I wasn't going to pass up the opportunity to race the hilux again ). Having said that, although our truck was competitive when we last competed back on 04, it's not quite up to today's standards. And it was a first time for Kerry and the first time for me in the drivers seat.

I think it will be quite a hard thing to get right - deciding where to draw the line between newbie and experienced, club truck and comp truck, or challenge class and club class. The norwest club class comp seemed to do it well, but I think that relied a bit on someone's discretion to say either yes or no.

wopass wrote:WE BEAT EVERYONE ON A NIGHT STAGE!!!! WOOOOO HOOOOO !!!!

That was an awesome bit of driving Ben, you guys kicked everyone's butt (including ours)!

At the Norwest club class next year we are running same rules as last time ,i:e if the truck has competed in the open (national series) class in the past 2 years then it cant enter the club class,same goes for the driver but he can co drive in a club class truck ,Im also thinking along the lines of maybe if you have placed in the top 3 in 3 comps that you have to move up to the next level this would stop the same trucks cleaning up year after year .as the club class was started as a way for the average club truck to go out and have some fun doing a winch comp ,these are just my thoughts after seeing how some of the trucks have evolved i know we may loose 1 or 2 trucks that dont want to go to the next level but it would stop the lesser modified trucks getting thrashed time after time by the same guys .Some feedback on this would be good as we need to know what you peolpe want..Cheers..Steve

Just an idea that occurred to me...............

What about classes with in classes???

Sure that sounds like it could get complicated, but:

With in the club class, have a couple of catagories based on modification level.

A Class - Standard (meets minimum club class standards, still modified, but to a lesser extent, front mounted winch etc etc)

B Class - Modified (vehicles that have been cut and shut, engine swapped, monster tyres, mid mounted winches, independant brakes etc etc)

I reckon that it is good to have the highly modified club class vehicles, it provides entertainment whilst waiting between stages, it give spectators something to watch and gives other competitors something to aspire to. It just adds another dimension to the club class.

Watching Jeremy and the south island guys was awesome inspiriation, and some of the others with huge Hp vehicles were just pure entertainment!!!

DieselBoy wrote:B Class - Modified (vehicles that have been cut and shut, engine swapped, monster tyres, mid mounted winches, independant brakes etc etc)

Now thats a good idea, along the lines of the southern boys Outlaw class, which allows for trials trucks, and non road legal beasts as well. i reakon limit tire size to 40" tho

The problem with the outlaw class is lack of competitors , Pete and others have tried it but quite frankley when you get only 3 or 4 trucks it not worth the effort .As for having a 40" tyre limit we have enough problems now with trucks on 33s following 35s .I can see where you are coming from re different classes and as a competition organiser it would cause to many probems on the day we would need to have different tracks and DNF times to suit the less capable trucks and i think it would get messy ,When we set the tracks we try to set them to cater for all types and pre run all of them with 1 or 2 club trucks with low mount winches and no lockers,last year i think we got it pretty right so were following the same format next year only difference being some real long stages i:e 40 min dnfs with 2 trucks on the coarse at the same time ..Steve

I bin thinking about it some more and had a chat with a guy at lunch time, and came up with another argument completely oposite to what i suggested earlier

We decided that part of the fun with winch challenges is that you are all on an even playing field when it comes to courses, DNF times and rules.

You can have the most awesome machine with the biggest tyres and huge Hp, but at the end of the day, the playing field gets leveled to an extent, and its fun to try and beat those sorta trucks in a ya standard suzuki.

Hi Dieselboy agree 100% i can assure you that the tracks we are setting at the clubclass next year will not favour any particular sort of truck or tyre size .it will come down to Team work and thinking about the right line not just the loud pedal ..Steve

monstr wrote:Hi Dieselboy agree 100% i can assure you that the tracks we are setting at the clubclass next year will not favour any particular sort of truck or tyre size .it will come down to Team work and thinking about the right line not just the loud pedal ..Steve

Cool, so you'll let me enter with my 40's then
I only got 150hp so i wont make a mess

Jafa wrote:

monstr wrote:Hi Dieselboy agree 100% i can assure you that the tracks we are setting at the clubclass next year will not favour any particular sort of truck or tyre size .it will come down to Team work and thinking about the right line not just the loud pedal ..Steve

Cool, so you'll let me enter with my 40's then
I only got 150hp so i wont make a mess

Yep that will be fine as long as your driving a Hummer or a LAV it would be worth making an exception just for the entertainment value

i may be blind and have missed all this but where is it held? and so comp trucks and drivers are now aloud? and is it more of a recovery knid of thing?

Hi they have been held up in Auckland at the Extreme 4x4 park and in South Auck ,The reason we dont allow competitors who are currently doing the main series (Challenge class?) is this comp is set up for the average club truck to go out and have some fun doing a winch challenge without having to spend the big $$ in an entry level competition ,and we dont want full on comp rigs or experenced competitors using it for a practice and running away with it ,Cheers,Steve

A handicap option is sounding pretty good but it is a pretty complex option! I have been reading a few other rules and in the UK they have a +1 and +2 class. That means +1 traction aid and +2 traction aids. So you could have a list of traction aids like tyre size, tyre type, diff locks, winch type etc and then from there you get a time handicap.
So +1 could be +1 minute per hazard and +2 could be plus 2 minutes per hazard. With most stages having between 1 and 3 hazards, potentially your could be 6 minutes slower and still win the stage if you drove a truck with standard tyres and no diff locks.
Thoughts???

I use to love it when we could go out there with a fairly standard truck and beat the big budget trucks. The buzz from that was great even though you didn't win overall. It is also amusing to see people come up with the your must have the biggest tyres, highest HP and a hydraulic winch to get anywhere. Guys like Wayne Lovejoy coming 3rd in a Suzuki with an electric winch at Rotorua sort of prove that wrong!
Too many people watch a competition and then think they can't do it because of what they think they see. There is so much you don't see. Take Fluffy. In his old truck (Fluffy) he won basically everything and that had leaf springs and a standard 8274 electric winch. He now has a scratch built truck with coil overs and a rather fast hydraulic winch and his record is worse than with the basic old Hilux! So much of a winch challenge is about driving the truck you have well and that means knowing your truck. Put 2 different crews into the same truck and you will have 2 entirely different results! This is one sport where experience counts for a lot!

Rookie season. Steel cable, standard winch, 1 locker, title within a title. But rather than restricted to one season make it one season or a total of 5 races (or the equivilent to a seasons comps) over a max of 3 years then you move up. Based on driver not combination. Looks likes log books are coming in anyway so should be easy to track numbers of events completed.

If a second class of vehicle is wanted for "club" trucks maybe look at making it a combination of Outlaw and "Club" to allow the "club" trucks that are un WOF able (but safe) to join as well.

meatc wrote:
If a second class of vehicle is wanted for "club" trucks maybe look at making it a combination of Outlaw and "Club" to allow the "club" trucks that are un WOF able (but safe) to join as well.

Best suggestion so far
and allow rear mounted radiators.

LOLYF wrote:

meatc wrote:
If a second class of vehicle is wanted for "club" trucks maybe look at making it a combination of Outlaw and "Club" to allow the "club" trucks that are un WOF able (but safe) to join as well.

Best suggestion so far
and allow rear mounted radiators.

and 40's

For what it's worth, I favour the vehicle handicap option. Tyre type & size, lockers, winch etc could all be quantified in time handicaps at scrutineering before each event by an event 'hadicapper'.

Dave

Firstly I would like to thank the Manukau 4wd Club for putting on a winch Challenge event, having held two winch challenges, I know how much work and effort goes into the event - congrates. Also thanks very much for accepting our entry and making us very welcome at the event. It's a long way from Queenstown but the trip was worth it. You guys taught us alot and we have taken away some great memories.

Rules; Don't make them to complicated. Use the KISS method "Keep it simple supid"
The rules should achieve certain aims.
1/ Safety for competitors, officals.
2/ Inspire fair competition/ create an even playing field.
3/ Development of the sport.

Lets not get bogged down with what works for us, individually, our own little agendas. Lets work towards the future and the growth & development of the sport or we could end up being a small group of old men battling to enforce our opinnions while the opportunity passes us by.

Classes of competing vehicles is a great idea, this can allow competitors to enter the sport at the cheapest & easiest position.

Club class can be just that. This class can be what it suggests, a class for 4wd club type vehicles competing against club type vehicles. Limit the modifications allowed to the vehicle, say tyre size, traction aids, engine re-power and the vehicles must have production body shells matching production chassis. Possibly require a W.O.F. Simple sort of stuff.

Open Class, these vehicles can have a higher degree of modification, say larger tyre size, engine modification expanded, more suspension and traction aids. The vehicles can have different chassis and body but must be limited to a simple set of perimeters ie: Wheel base reduction/extention limited to say 200mm?? from std, body to resemble factory but can be other materials. No W.O.F or Cert required.

Outlaw Class, again these vehicles have another step in modification. Trying to incourage the "D" class trials trucks with a winch on. Again limit the tyre size (for overall fairness) but almost anything goes as long as they stay within the basic safety requirements.

Basic safety requirements; These cover generic requirements for competing vehicles, like rollcages, brakes, firewalls, steering, seats and seat belts, winch rope and front windscreens etc. But keep it simple and attainable.

The other part of the rule book covers the events, you know things like winch safety cans and can nots. Compulsory winches, controlled hazards, keeping within the stage, DNF/DNS so and so......

Whilst all the classes compete on the same stages on the same day, some factors could be taken into account, like a very bogging stage could see all the club class vehicles go first, before the high HP and larger tyres go thru. The most important thing is that classes are competing aganist themselves, although there is an overall winner this result can surprise.

Food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What he said^^^^^

I agree whole heartedly!!!!!!!

So we have something really good happening that needs some direction to keep it happening and make it easier for everyone. We need to keep it as simple as possible and keep it safe. Everyone will not be happy as that is life!
It isn't my job to make the rules, it is my job to ensure that the rules that are put in place reflect the wishes of those the rules apply to.
Hopefully I have a balanced outlook and so can assist it making this happen. I'll give you a little back ground so you understand my experience.
I was elected as President of 4x4 Challenges several weeks ago.
My first competition was the 2005 Nor-West WC which I competed in a SWB Nissan with 34" JT (bald) tyres, a 9000 Ramsey winch with wire rope. It had a 2" lift and was otherwise standard. This is sort of the same truck I now run but it has changed a bit! I have done basically everything on my truck myself but have had assistance when needed for technical things like tuning, fitting turbo's etc. I have basically done most events in the NI since then except for most of 2007 due to rebuilding my truck.
I have directly organised 3 WC in Whangarei and was one of the first to run a clun class.

So.

I'll take the Manukau event as an example of the issues we need to overcome.
The vehicles ranged from pretty well setup trucks that aren't far of open competition through to basically standard trucks with a winch on. Now these trucks are competing with each other and everyone wants to have a the same opotunity. As the rules currently stand you can build a truck like mine or any of the other open class trucks and compete in the club class. This would not be fair as I would have expected to drive some of the stages from the weekend. (whether I did or not is another story). This is how it should be as it was an entry level competition.
So there needs to be a line drawn that is fair and easy to police.
I actually think there needs to be 2 club classes. (that isn't to say this will happen)
One that is an entry level and gives people in very standard trucks somewhere to have a go and the tracks will be set accordingly.
And a class that is competitive but the vehicle specs are such that you are in a more standard truck. (and it should cheaper)

The reason is if we are going to incorporate Club class into our full competitions then we need to ensure that the tracks aren't going to kill the club class trucks. This means a greater degree of competence and truck preparation. A lot of the mods that open class trucks have are about reliability. Winchs etc are more heavy duty. This doesn't mean a well setup club truck won't finish, far from it BUT alot of them won't.
So if they enter the event they will not enjoy it due to being over their head and it is likely that they will break the truck. The other problem is they will delay the event which is a problem to others trying to race.
So while the club class is about inclusion, by the nature of it we must also exclude as well to keep things fair.

It has been said by a lot of people that they don't want people dominating club class so if you are doing well a lot there will be a rule put in place to make you progress through to the next class.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to discuss things directly with me then call me. 0275 330637
If you think we have got it completely wrong (or right) then we need to know as if we have gotten it all wrong then it needs to be changed.

While it would be nice to be able to have everything, there are several limitations within the running of a winch challenge. One is the available time... only so many vehicles can compete within a time window unless the stages are simply reduced to a few minutes each. By introducing a variety of classes then the time factor and the need to manage the state of the stages for fairness, there are increased variables within an event. Do you go to an event for the driving or the waiting around? Do you want to drive for more than a few minutes each stage?

The safety of competitors is vital from an organisers viewpoint since a dead competitor will not be able to come to their own defence... the blame will fall on the organisers first. Simply because a competing vehicle is labeled as a different class does not limit its speed or antics of the driver. In fact you find that 'club class' driver will brag that they did a section quicker than a 'challenge class' vehicle! Every vehicle has the capacity to maim or kill and under NZ law organisers are obliged to apply the 'best practice' to avert risks to everyone. If that means that some individual costs to compete are higher, then that's the price of everyone's freedom.

The argument that people want to be able to compete in something that's cheap to create is understandable but will they then put their hands in their pockets to cover the costs of an organiser who has to answer to the law, to the detriment of family and livelihood? Could you afford to spend time answering Police, OSH and coroners questions along with lawyers and court time? Frankly event organisers are braver than any competitor because they are putting everything at risk for a whole range of people.

Every rule in the 4x4 Challenges rule set has been questioned.... will this unnecessarily increase competitor costs? Those same rules evolved from the core Australian set from the original 2000 event. Experience is a great teacher and that experience was applied annually to address the inventive nature of competitors.

Best practice has been the basis of the present 4x4 Challenge rules and to step back from that could leave a very murky hole.

Arrrrrg, Peter, you make it sound like we all should just stay in bed were its safe

But, unfortunatly what you say is true, in the worst case scenario.

I tend to look at things from another perspective, based on my planning background:

A) This is what we we want to do

B)These are the legal implications/requirements of doing that

C)How do we go about doing what we want to do, and avoid/mitigate/meet those those legal implications/requirements.

There is always away to get what you want. Laws are not inplace to impede on anybodies freedom.

So far from the discussion, we can draw out:

1) The need to further debate whether there is a need for two catagories with in the Club Class umbrella.

2) Whether it is practical to have a Club Class included at events the would have been designed for the Challenge class

3) Time constraints based on the number of competitors that can compete at an event.

5) The vehicle specifictions for the club class, whether it be in one or two catagories.

As I understand it, the law requires organisers to take "reasonable steps" to ensure safety. Of course, you have to be prepared to justify what you believed was "reasonable" AFTER there has been an accident.... However, I don't think it would be considered "reasonable" to run novice drivers in less capable trucks over the same course that is being used by experienced drivers in competition trucks. Merely having a rule requiring roll cages probably wouldn't keep you out of court!

Conversely, even without requiring roll cages for Club trucks, I think you could argue pretty convincingly that you had taken "reasonable steps" if you could show that you had planned the course specifically to minimise any risk of rollovers, reduce speeds, and avoid routes where a mis-jusdgement had the potential for serious injury. This isn't that hard - compulsory winch obstacles, short banks rather than long hill-climbs, no night stages, and no off-camber obstacles. We reckon we set it up pretty well for the "Top of the South" Winch Challenge. It wasn't too hard to keep the obstacles appropriate to the class, as well as keeping stage times about the same. We shortened some stages for the Clubman class, set different lines at some obstacles, and used short-cuts avoiding others. All the marshals had to do was move a couple of strips of bunting. Running some stages on the same route, but in reverse direction is also a simple way to make some stages easier.

Making routes easier, and having compulsory winch sections may also deter the more capable trucks/drivers from wanting to compete in the Club Class (or "novice" class, or whatever), as they wouldn't be allowed to "drive" all the obstacles. I also think each event should stand alone for this class, with no points carried through a series. And, while there shouldbe placings awarded, any prizes should be based on votes from marshalls so they are given for the best driving and teamwork, rather than going to the most capable truck.

As an aside - planning has already started for a 3-day event in 2010 which will hopefully bring competitors from both Islands. At this stage we are planning to include a Clubman Class, with the same requirements we used last time - roll cages not required, 33in tyres, steel cable allowed, road legal trucks. If necessary, we'll call it a "Marlborough Class" so we can set our own rules...

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(not aimed at anyone, do not take anything personally!!)

Why on earth would any one enter an event where they are going to be wrapped in cotton wool?

"oh, you guys aren't allowed to drive that big long hill, you might hurt your selves, how about this little wee bank here"

YOU DON"T ENTER AN EVENT LIKE THIS IF YOU AREN"T PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR OWN ACTIONS

You don't enter a winch challenge or a trials event, or a rugby game, with out first accepting the posibility that you may get seriously injured.

You know whats getting me at the moment??

The National trials series has several different catagories of vehicles and all vehicles drive the same hazards. The variation in vehicles between the A class and D class vehicles is huge, and varies from a basic 6 point cage with diagonal to full space frame designs.

The roll over risk is the same for every vehicle in every catagory. The risk of injury or death is the same.

But you don't see them getting out there and wrapping the A class boys up in cotton wool, saying "there there, you might get a little bit scared driving that off camber over there, if you get it wrong you might roll, and that would mean your scruitineered, regulation 6 point cage would get used to protect you, and we don't want that" .

Why should the Club Class be any different??

You have the basic safety requirements, i.e basic cage design, harness, helmets, and any winch challenge specific requirements like tin top, windscreen etc, and the vehicle meets a standard of mechanical integrity.

If a vehicle meets those basic requirements, why do you need to wrap them up in cotton wool, and tell them that they can only drive around on a flat paddock and have to winch them selves up 500mm bank??

Maybe somone should hire a good lawyer and get them to go through all the legal stuff, and design a disclaimer for competitors to sign that is as bullet proof as possible.

Maybe even set up a competition license like the motorx and rally guys have.

That way, we would all be licenced motor sport competitors, which means that we accept the risk of the sport we are competing in, plus with a decent legal disclaimer stating that we as competitors accept the risks of the sport/event, and don't hold anyone responsible other than our selves, the event organisers should be covered.

Maybe have the main disclaimer as part of the conditions for gaining your competition license. Then a more low key disclaimer upon signing in on competition day.

The competition license would be valid for one year/season.

More food for thought huh.

I would just hate to see the club class turned into token gesture of the real thing.

The idea is to allow a cheaper entry level class into the competition, with out compromising safety obviously.

No one is serioulsy going to complain if they have to have harnesses and a basic 6 point cage in their soft top, or a main hoop with back stays in their hard top are they??

No one is going to complain if they get turned away because thier truck was held together with zip ties and bird shit weld, and the steering joints were duct taped into place??

If you guys announced:

"Club class vehicle requiremnets for the series are:
6 point cage for open tops
Hoop and back stays for hard tops
4 point harnesses
mechanical integrity
and the other generic rules that can be carried over from the challenge class"

People like myself would go away and, say "alriiiight, this is what i need to get sorted out to compete in this class for the season, lets get stuck in and get the truck set up to meet these requirements"

Anyway, I've spoken todays thoughts on the subject , and i've said more than enough for my daily contribution to this thread

Isn't what is described in the previous posting what I'm advocating? The present rules of 4x4 Challenges NZ set the standard as current 'best practice' and if competitors want to join the fun, then they comply. Ok, there are some evolving processes with rules that need reviewing as time passes but we must stay to the best safety practice possible.

4x4 Challenges NZ already have the paperwork created for a licence system but like the log book process, there has been low acceptance by competitors, despite the fact that the idea was put forward by those same people.

With the processes available, the risk to organisers is managed and acceptable, it's just a matter of getting competitors to consider what risks others are taking so the competitors can play. We hear of the costs to build a vehicle etc, but I've never heard an event organiser tally their personal costs for running an event.

There was comment about the National Trials putting all their classes through the same obstacles... their safety rules don't vary simply because the competitor is new to the sport and want's to 'have a go'.

I like the way you think Diesel Boy.

Simplicity at it best.

Why are some trying to re-invent the wheel. There are several templates already active in NZ (Forget Aussies), 4x4 trials, off road racing, motoX etc. All of these sports run several different classes on the same circuits why can some of you get your head around it!!!!!!!

The one class for everybody attitude has failed, thats a given. Time to move on, but on the other hand we can have some clubs running their own little class in their events because they can't fit to the National standard. Its time to buy into the one National body, one National standard through all classes.

The sport will only be successfull if it is run by competitors, administered by competitors, developed by competitors, for competitors. Others need to join the ranks or remain gunners reading the best practice model.

I agree DB!
However due to the nature of the sport we are limited to how many trucks that can complete a stage so we have to work around that. ie average stage time of 12 minutes means 5 trucks per hour. If DNF is 30 minutes and 2 trucks DNF and take extra time to get out then for a field of 20 it can easily take over 6 hours to complete that stage.
Now to get a good competition you need about 6 to 8, 10min to 15min average time stages per day. A 10 to 15min stage would have between 2 and 4 winches for the average person but if driven would take about 3 to 5 mintues. This is working on a winch taking 3 min. So 3 winches and 3 min driving equals 12min. (this is my basic formula)
This means about 1 to 2 hours racing for a normal weekend competition. At Whangarei the average race time was about 90min in 9 stages and I felt this was on the short side.
So if running 2 classes together the stage changes are about maintaining a flowing competition so that MOST people enjoy it. The last thing that I would want is for the stages to be dumbed down but the differences between the classes does mean that some things need to be different. If you add 1 winch per stage for a club class truck then over a 14 stage event that is an extra 45ish min. which times 8 trucks is an extra 6 hour racing that has to be fitted in!
Now if you look at Nor-West where they are having 2 classes, it is quite possible that there will be 15 trucks in each class! Do the math and you can see that concessions have to be made. If all classes can complete the same thing in the same time then they are the same class!

The other thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that we all want the same thing. And that is to have good stories when we sit down at the end of a hard weekend and have a cold refreshing beverage! (or 2)

Total agree about time constraints, and making the hazards shorter for the club class, like you said though, would hate to see the stages dumbed down too much!!!!!

In my opinion/view, i invision an entry level club class truck to be a truck that meets the basic safety stuff, runs an off the shelf low mount winch, basic hydraulic, or standard factory OEM winch as fitted to that vehicle or something to that effect. Hell, if you really wanted to keep the playing field level and the cost down, you could rule that to be elegable for the club class your winch must be rated at no more than twice the weight of the vehicle it is mounted too

Tyre size and traction aids could come into it somewhere also.

With that in mind, when it comes to setting stages, they can therefore be "dummed down " from the challenge class with the intention of making them achieveable with the winching equipment allowed in the class.

It seems, from my experience thus far, that most vehicles have to winch at the same points of the stage, and most drive the same parts of the stage. The odd one or two have a moment of brilliance, and drive something that others have had to winch. That was prevelant at manukau where a standard cherokee and full blown comp trucks where following in the same foot steps. The difference was team skill and winch capacity/speed.

What i'm getting at, is that the winches are going to be the big point of differentiation between the classes, perhaps not so much the vehicles.

So the courses can quiet easily follow the same terrain, except that there will be easier winch options for the club class to suit the sort of winch gear they are allowed to run. Challenge class goes through the center of the swamp, club class line is over and accross a small corner of it.

At the same time, i would like to see a place for full blown trials type trucks with a winch on the front have a place in the sport

More food for thought