Offroad-Express

Hey me again well seems my buyer off trademe has fallen through (sigh what a pain im 1500$ in debt, just what i need lol) just a basic question here for anyone who works in the motor industry.. my timing chain snapped on my 4k engine (running in my zook, if you seen me around you probably know the story) and i was thinking i might get it fixed an keep using it(big step for me but the motivation is getting stronger everyday i see it sitting in the drive lol) umm so yea its a old old 4k engine an the chain snapped im guessing itll need to be retimed all over(valves an crank an dist?) was wondering if anyone has done this before an could give me an aprox on the labour required to do this? id like to do it myself but i dont have a timing light an a few other tools needed so yea anyone know how hard this is to do for a mechanic? is it worth fixing? also another thing would be does anyone know a place where they do this alot/have alot of experience with older engine or suzukis? would like to get it done as cheap as possible an will be ringing around this week to find out,

any info much appreciated! thanks for looking

cheaper to buy a good second hand runner off a wrecker than repair that one mate. the repair job would be about 400ish and a good second hand motor about half that

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 297331.htm

motor and box

If it's a non interference motor then it will be a simple retime and chain swap. I would imagine a decent workshop could do that in 2-3 hours easily with parts being pretty cheap for those motors as well.

Second hand motors might be cheap but swapping them over is an easy days work.

Matt.

no i really really really really with a pashion dont want to take the engine out, i did that on my other zook an i cant get the new engine in to the mounts an it took for ever to get it all setup an no im not going there lol.im pretty sure its an easy fix 400 is still quite cheap, you reckon id find anyone who would do it for less than that? yea pretty sure its just a simple retime an new chain but couldnt be 100% sure, is there a way of telling weither you can or not? radiator an piping is out just gota take the crank off put a new chain an put crank back on an i can do the rest of the ties myself(radiator doesnt quite fit properly into the truck so its just easier for me to put it back on myself as i know how it fits best. so if its just taking the crank pulley off(dunno if im using the right terms lol) put new chain an retime everything would that make it much cheaper? im guessing its another 30mins work to put the radiator an piping back on so i guess itd save me what 40-50$? can anyone reccomend me a good shop to go to? with competetive prices ? or if theres a mechanic out there who wants some cash work pm me?

Mattman wrote:If it's a non interference motor then it will be a simple retime and chain swap. I would imagine a decent workshop could do that in 2-3 hours easily with parts being pretty cheap for those motors as well.

Second hand motors might be cheap but swapping them over is an easy days work.

Matt.

cheers matt, where would i find weither its non interfernce or not? and if it wasnt how much extra work would that make it? im 90% sure the engine hasnt seized it cranks over with a socket alright so should be ok aye?

also that engine in north island, im in chch, so itd cost me more to get it shipped plus the massive hassle of putting it in.. i looked in chch already theres none around

Dunno much about 4k engines but you might want to check there isnt any valves stuck in the tops of the pistons before you look at replacing the broken timing chain

If you haven't had all your questions answered by then, I'll ask at the workshop on Tuesday (Monday's a holiday here) and see what they say.

Sorry that your deal fell through, but gotta admit I'm pleased you still want to give it a crack. I'm pretty sure once you get away with the CHCH boys for a decent run you'll never look back.

Ring me if there's anything I can do to help.

Cheers
Leigh

how would i check the valves? yea gona have another go at this black truck when i get around to it.. woulndt mind keeping one selling the other no real need for 2 lol, cheers Leigh, plus i gota get into gear an paint the doors already lol the rest of the car is done an ive got the compressor from work for the weekend,

the cheeky guy off trademe placed negative feedback on me to! it took him 2 weeks an he stood me up 3 times an still didnt buy the trucks an i got negative feedback from it trademe tards for ya

I just did a quick google and it appears that the 4k isn't an interference motor so it should be a very straight forward job to replace the chain and nothing else should be needed.

It's pretty easy to do it yourself and you can't make it worse! I would ring repco and bnt and get a price on a chain and any other bits they have and give it a go yourself. Plenty of guides on the net. If you can't finish it then you are no worse off than you were before.

Matt.

awesome thank you so much for that information! very helpful .i can easyily change the chain an put a new one on, BUT i dont have a timing light an i dont have the neccesary tools todo it(meaning i would struggle to get the valves timed with the pistons unless its as simple as timing marks?), also i really cant be stuffed trying to get that crank shaft bolt off (its hard as hell on an sj410) a similar thing happened with my 410 i had to take the water pump out so i had to take the crank off to(f10a engine dont have easy access) an it took me soooooo long i bent about 5 chrome vandiums trying todo it an it was a real struggle, i was told its an easy fix by a distant friend but i really dont have the skills or tools to get the job done, would love to learn how(well i pretty much know, except i dont know how they get the bolts off its SO HARD!@!$@!) which is why i offered to pay someone some cash work lol. ummm i dunno its definately plausable but im unsure about chain belts an IF ANYONE CAN GIVE ME TIPS ON EASY WAYS TO GET CRANK SHAFT OFF ID LOVE TO KNOW ive done it before an it worked fine but that was the point i relized the water pump was only half the problem the head gasket was gone to which is how i got to the point of engine swapping an to the point of engine mounts lol, its a long long story..


but yea keen on any more info anyone can give, ive looked around for a 4k manual but cant seem to find one, which car should i be looking for?(starlet or corrla or what?) i was just gona hire it from the libary but i guess its only 50$ to buy 1

Hi Sam, I don't have a lot of spare time at the moment but I will give you a couple of hours to see if we can get your Zuk back on the Track, PM me your address and phone No; and I shell try and fit it in this week, I finish work at 4pm. so any time after that.

FITZY,
Ph 3387202, 0274318993

wow thanks fitzy thanks a very generous offer! ive been lucky enough to get the day off work today so im going to have a go at getting the thing off/ready myself.. maybe you could help with the timing part? im unsure as i havent got the manual yet but it might be something i can do myself if its just simple timing marks although ive never done a chain before dunno if theres any specail techniques but hopefully thats where the manual will come in.. also would i need to time the dist as well? or would it be at the right place already? will post how i go tonight(have yet to source a chain as well so will see how much its all going to cost, im on a tight budget lol) hopefully will have good news!

The dizzy is run off the cam so if you line up the cam correctly then you will be fine.

Getting the crank pulley off can be a challenge, locking the motor in place is key so that you can put sufficient leverage on the bolt. In extreme circumstances you can put a breaker bar on the bolt and manually turn the motor over so that the bar is locked against the frame or the ground and use the starter motor to break the bolt free.

I would put it in low range 4wd reverse gear and see if you can undo the bolt with a long bar.

Do a search on the net and you will most likely find what the marks are on the gears and how to line them up.

Cheers
Matt.

Mattman wrote:The dizzy is run off the cam so if you line up the cam correctly then you will be fine.

Getting the crank pulley off can be a challenge, locking the motor in place is key so that you can put sufficient leverage on the bolt. In extreme circumstances you can put a breaker bar on the bolt and manually turn the motor over so that the bar is locked against the frame or the ground and use the starter motor to break the bolt free.

I would put it in low range 4wd reverse gear and see if you can undo the bolt with a long bar.

Do a search on the net and you will most likely find what the marks are on the gears and how to line them up.

Cheers
Matt.

cool thanks for those tips, wud the breaker bar method be very safe in this situation? an also would it not only tighten the bolt if i did that?does the engine spin backwars in reverse or something? im gona give lowrange reverse a try an block the wheels ect might get my mate to hold it with vice grips to so its abit easier.im assumight righty tighty lefty loosey lol.it took me about a week to get my sj410 bolt off an i bent the cambelt cover pretty brutaly as well, lets hope this goes abit smoother

*edit*found this thought someone might like to see the breaker method in action http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=fgY3-cAel ... re=related

i think i need to get a big steel bar so my breaker bar reaches something to lever off

so umm hmm, funny story, me an my mate took off that chainbelt cover an its completely fine... :s now were completely lost, we checked the plugs first thing an theyre all fine.. engine cranks an makes noise but doesnt fire? umm dont know what else to think now.. the guy at the mac told us the chain had snapped but the valves seem to go up n down(is the camshaft supose to spin around? the valves go up but the cam doesnt spin) any ideas what it could be? now im really confused it just doesnt start at all? we going to reasemble everything an give it a go but i dont think its going to work we sat there for an hour doing it the other day an it wouldnt fire

any ideas?

Perhaps the camshaft has snapped?

Pull the rocker cover and whilst you turn the motor over you should see the rocker arms go up and down. If the arms are all moving then there is nothing wrong with the cam and chain.

Pull the dizzy cap and whilst the motor is turning over you should see the cam in the dizzy turning around as well. Next it's time to pull the plugs one at a time and leave them connected to the leads and lying against the engine block to ground them and check for spark.

Matt.

haha oh how embarring! the sparks arent sparking at all... how do i check dizzy? also whats the chances of it being the solanoid? no sparks come out of any leads so does that make it definately the dizzy?

its actually kinda a relief that its not the chain aye but i guess my inexperience is showing lol.rocker arms an valves seem to be going up an down fine so looks like its nothing todo with the cam

also dizzy turns fine it does look abit old an worn though it was working perfectly fine before hand.. does that make it the solanoid?

That makes it the coil most likely...

Take one of the plugs out and put it on the lead from the coil, again make sure the plug is grounded and turn the motor over. If the plug doesn't fire then it's either the coil or the dizzy/points not triggering the coil to fire.

The coil should have a positive 12V feed on one terminal that goes live when the ignition is on - (you are turning the motor over with the key aren't you) and a ground triggered by the points opening and closing.

Matt.

Good progress Sam.

It's good that you're narrowing down the possibilities, and you're right, it was very generous of Fitzy to offer his help. If you have a chance to take him up on it I would. I'm sure he could help pinpoint the failure for you pretty quickly.

Also good that the timing belt is OK, with no spark it could be something really simple like a stuffed coil.

Keep us posted,

Cheers
Leigh

ok done that, no spark? i took the lead from the coil?(is that the big silver thingy?) an put a spark plug in it(yes using the key lol) so no spark from it.. where do i go from here? how exspensive is it to replace the coil? are they easily sourced? like can i go buy one right now an test it? also should i replaced the solanoid to? my step dad said it was quite common for the solanoids to crap out on the older engines? thanks for the help were so close now i can feel it , also would you like me to take some pics of anything?

Not sure why you are referencing a solenoid, that's usually on the starter motor so if the starter physically turns over then it's okay.

There is no point just replacing the coil as it could be the wiring or the points. Do you have a multimeter? If you do then you can check the +ve side of the coil and ensure that it has 12v to it. If it does then it's time to move on and check the points and the wiring from the dizzy to the coil.

With the dizzy cap off you can see the points which push against the central shaft in the dizzy and as the motor turns over the points should open and close. There will be a wire which runs from the points to the -ve side of the coil.

Quite commonly if people take points out or mess with the dizzy the negative feed to the coil can sometimes be permanently grounded which will prevent the motor from firing.

Matt.

ok, i do have one but i cant get access to it until later on tonight.. i had a spare one off my other truck so i chucked that on it an no spark either althou i wasnt 100% i wired it up right will test the wires an post my findings.. ohhh so close so very very close

Feel free to give me a call tonight if you need a hand to do your voltage checks on the coil.

Matt - 021 941003

cheers matt, and everyone else who has been helping if it werent for you guys id have gotten rid of it not really knowing what was wrong, ive got a vault meter but its at a friends house so i wont be able to pickup for a few days(was hoping to get it done tonight but hes busy) hopefully its just the coil an not the lines from the battery(is it very common for a coil to break/malfunction like that? do you think i should replace the leads at the same time?) im hoping this will be fixed for the weekend as id really love to get out there an do some much needed "sam time" but its quite relieving to think that it could be fixed an useable by the weekend! WOOHOO!! after struggling with this stuff for months its a massive relief to finally have something go my way lol anyways will be sure to get back to you with any information. there are a few things id like to know

1. is it easy to change a coil over yourself, i mean it should just be a few wires so it looks easy enough?
2. do i have to buy a specific coil(obviously il need a 12v coil) but is there anything i need to make note of?
3. is it worth getting this done at the shop or should i do it myself?


agian thank you everyone, matt, fitzy an lniel (Leigh) for the time an effort its really turned out to be a good happy result for me so yea +kharma to everyone who has helped

will post findings asap

Don't replace anything until you fix the root cause otherwise you can end up chasing unrelated issues for days.

Normally a failing coil will give issues until it won't run anymore but it is possible that it's died. Don't buy a new coil until you have worked out what is wrong.

When you have your volt meter, check the resistance between the terminals, between both small posts and then from the large post to each small post. This will tell you if the coil is knackered, if any of the readings are infinity or open circuit then you have a problem.

Then do your voltage checks at the coil. Across both small terminals the voltage should fluctuate from 12 to 0 as you crank it over, if it doesn't check from ground to the +ve terminal and you should have +12v. Then check again from ground to the negative terminal on the coil. You should have 0v here, if you have 12v then there is something wrong with the points and or the wiring to the points.

Not sure if this motor runs a balast resistor or not, on the +vs side of the coil there should be two leads if it does, one runs to a white resistor and the other runs off to the ignition or starter. That's pretty much all you need to know if you need to replace the coil. Repco, Supercheap and BNT should be able to sort you with that info.

I would suspect that it's likely that it's the points or the wiring to the coil that is faulty. Did you check that the points are opening and closing as the distributor goes around and around?

Matt.

chchzookfan wrote: (is the camshaft supose to spin around? the valves go up but the cam doesnt spin)

If the valves are opening and closing the cam must be turning coz thats what makes the valves open. Have you got spark at the plugs and is the rotor turning in the distributor if you take the cap off and turn the engine over?

thanks matt will do that when i test it not sure what your talking about when you say the points on the dizzy that are opening an closing, il have a look 2moro an see what i can find, it spins freely (but the bits inside the dizzy look abit worn?) if it was the dizzy youd think i got at least 1 spark from a lead would i not? i checked all leads including the one from the coil an none had a spark. at the time of failure, it was running fine for an hour then just cut out (wasnt jumpy just completely cut out) so it wasnt like it was getting worse over time it just happened all at once completely cut out an no firing in the engine.. its weird as i cant find any visible signs of the cords being damaged an the dizzy spins around ok.. just wondering weither its somewhere in the battery cords but whats the chance that would cut out completely while its been working fine for the past hour? argh i dunno im so lost at times

ITS RUNNING! weehooo! got it started today replaced the coil an it works! need to buy a bigger cord as i dont have the correct size cord(took it from my other truck), put the radiator an chaincover on an yea shes runs after i jumper her thanks for the help everyone.. am going to get it driving 2moro, also i think my radiator is over heating because the fan is to small so not sure what im going todo about that :/ an unsure weither my gears are engaging because i put it into gear an nothing happened it does have extremely flat tyres though and not sure if putting it in 4wd neutral disengages the gearbox? i didnt play with the chain just opened the cover so i dont think ive done anything might just be the flat tyres lol i dunno BUT ITS WICKED THAT ITS GOING! if its all go this weekend im going to take it out to the waimac 4wd spot give it abit of a test see if anything is playing up but hopefully all is well!

thanks everyone

chchzookfan wrote:not sure if putting it in 4wd neutral disengages the gearbox?

'

It does not disengage the gearbox, but it does disengage the driveline (as the transfer case is in neutral) i.e. you will not move when either of the gearbox or transfer case is in neutral.

haha yea thought so probably a good thing as the tyres are dead flat on 1 side, its mind that its going now! going to buy some reconditioning stuff for my radiator because it was cooked an has rust in it, im hoping theres something that would be easy to use for flushing it,

again id just like to thakn everyone for the help, esp matt for the step by step instructions(hope my noobness didnt irratate u to much) an fitzy for the generous offer an leigh for the help from the start-cheers guy,hopefully get to meet some of you in the weekend