Offroad-Express

So what are people's interpretation's of the outlaw class idea for Winch Challenge's??

Are we thinking it to be to be a "bolt a Winch on, anything goes" type class, or along a similar vain to club class, where you need to be running radiators in the front, windcsreen's, doors, roof, cargo barrier, with a limited choice of materials available for the above??

Here's a quick cut and paste from another thread that was heading in this direction.................

Jafa"quote="DieselBoy"quote="Jafa"quote="darinz wrote:And then when we have enough actually competing that want to do Outlaw then we can get that going as well!!!!!

Yeah! thats the way! Outlaw class, must be some trials johnnies who want to have a go at that!?


Tell me when, I'm busy trying to work out how i can keep my trials truck as a trials truck, but still be able to enter the winch challenges with out compromising the trials ability

But i must say, you won't get to many people wanting to use there rally trucks for the w/C, the compromises are just to great.

Running radiators in the front, windcsreen's, doors, roof, cargo barrier, the choice of materials available for the above, it all reduce's trials ability, not to mention the weight of the winch and placement.

Tweak the rules, and maybe you would get more

Anyways, that's a disscussion for another thread, another time, back to the awesome pic's!!!!!!

Isn't that what Outlaw is for?, basically anything goes?, bolt a winch onto the front of ya trials truck and go for it. That's how it was at the Whakatane challenge a few years ago. Tires limited to 36" tho It didnt get much support though

do they not have rules for this class

they ran it few years ago at whakatane as jafa said

I thought it was anything goes, apart from tyre size limitations

similar to the open classes of trialing

hasnt really taken off, dont know how much support that class has here in the south island either

The way I see it working is like this.
anything goes, with the exception of a tire size limit, I'd like to see the limit at 40" of course but I think if ya going to run it on the same tracks as the rest of the winch challenge, then its only fair to make it the same size tire. ie 36.5"
Stick ya radiator wherever you want, run portals if ya want, four wheel steer, fiddles, any body on any chassis, or full spaceframe tube buggies. I guess you would have to ban caterpillar tracks for the same reason as the tires
Basically you can stick anything you want on top of a set of 36 x 12.5 tires
Honestly I think, to start with at least, you'd be getting vehicles like mine, and trials trucks and homebuilts like the guy down south with the v6 hilux based buggy thingee

Whaddya reakon?

True Skiddy, BUT:

My point of interest is that everytime i have sugested some idea i have had whist sitting in the garage at home, thinking and schemeing, i have been shot down.

That is in regard to:

The need for a windscreen - Speed and getting slapped in the face by tree's

The need for doors - Torso protection

The logic behind a radiator in the front - OEM vehicle apearence

The need for hard roof over the cage - cab intrusion protection

The requirement for no independant wheels brakes - high speed, and also deemed as a traction control

As you well know, trials trucks are not alowed glass, so there goes the windscreen, they do not run doors as the are extra weight, they more than often have the radiator in the back, and not manyt run the hard top over the cage, as it is not a requirement and is extra weight, but many are heading in that direction for personal safety.

It will be interesting to see if these can be addressed.

In the mean time, i am planning to make a simple removeable windscreen frame using the OEM glass, running removeable OEM doors, and trying to see if i can get the light weight alloy/plastic composite approved for the overhead cage protection.

Thats easy for me, as i will be running a largly OEM A Class trials body.

It would be interesting to see if the like's of Blackcruisers trials machine could compete, co's those sort of trucks would own!!!!!

Those trucks would have issues with all of the above issues i raised, as there is no OEM body, and no facility for door's, windscreen's, front mounted radiators etc etc.

This is going to be an interesting discussion!!!!

Exciting time's

A few points to think about.
There's no restriction upon what you make the skid lid out of it just must have the same penetration resistance as 2mm ali or 1mm steel. Plasitic etc are OK, you just need to prove they are strong enough.
Same with doors. You must have a minimum of a half door and it must be as strong as a factory door.
Windscreen is for your own safety due to travelling down narrow tracks at speed.

IMO the idea of getting a trail truck and bolting a winch on won't work and be competitive in both sports. The requirements are too different. It is like doing offroad races in a winch truck. Great fun but unless you have your own class then you have too many compromises.

That being said, using the technology from trails to build an outlaw winch truck would produce something pretty incredible!

There is no spec for an outlaw class but if the demand was there it could be developed like the club class. BUT the guys need to be there doing it FIRST. Club class happened because some events were held and supported really well so we got together with the event organisers and formalised it to make it easy for everyone. The same concept could work for outlaw class but you need to have more than 4 or 5 guys to make it worthwhile.

I think that outlaw should be pretty much safety rules and everything else is free. Tyres, brakes, chassis, body, radiators etc could have no restriction. (maybe a tyre max size like 40") Portals, spaceframes etc would be all allowed.

The problem is they would need to be run basically seperate from the current winch challenges. Without the restriction (particulary portals and tyre size) then the inpact upon stage design and operation is too great and would make it too hard to run an event. If you leave tyre sizes the same and don't allow portals then no problem but then what would be the point.

And if there are guys out there that want to run an outlaw event then let me know and I'll help out to get it going.

Outlaw class would not require a windscreen, doors, or any sort of OEM appearance, thats what challenge and club class are for, outlaw would be exactly that, outside the "laws" that the other classes have to stick to. D-class trials truck with a winch on the front would be fine, mine with the rad on the back would be eligible, yours the way it is now would be fine, Swampa's idea of a big v8 powered tube buggy would be fine, If by some miracle Peter Antunac, the winner of Tuff Truck 09, brought his 40 over, he could enter. I think Darin is correct in saying that it might not be feasible to run it at the same time as a normal winch challenge, perhaps a completely different event more like the Tuff Truck in oz would be more suitable. I know it would suit my truck better! Just gotta find somewhere suitable to hold it

forget outlaw class winch comp then, tufftruck nz stylz 2010

swampa wrote:forget outlaw class winch comp then, tufftruck nz stylz 2010

Yeah!! now were talking!
Who wants to enter?
Isnt there sposed to be an event like that down Hanmer ways next year??

could it be dune like kins of hammers its the best of all 3 off road trials and winch and make it like an enduro i would be keen

how deep are your pockets???? king of the hammer rigs run into the hundreds of thousands, Speed sections would require full on cages, or even anything that resembles these is $$$$
hilux,cruisers, safs... crawler gears, big tyres37's to 40's(to start off with) most rigs can squeeze these on, mud holes, rocks, mud holes, mmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!

swampa wrote:how deep are your pockets???? king of the hammer rigs run into the hundreds of thousands, Speed sections would require full on cages, or even anything that resembles these is $$$$
hilux,cruisers, safs... crawler gears, big tyres37's to 40's(to start off with) most rigs can squeeze these on, mud holes, rocks, mud holes, mmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!

Yep that sounds the bizzo.
KOH is full on full chromoly buggies, $15k US engines, 5k tf cases, 100+ mph, well out of my budget. The origianl aussie tuff trucks are what we'd be looking at here until it got more popular, like Swampa said, crawler gears, 40" tires long travel suspension, doesn't have to cost moon money, this year a leaf sprung Hilux went quite well in Aussie, basically take whatever truck you like, link the suspension, bung some coils and long shocks in, low range gears and a cage, your away....

This is what happened in Oz. They tried a more open winch challenge class but it ended up tuff truck, and is a completely seperate event. Something that we are aware of and while I like the idea of an outlaw class I think it is really a seperate type of event. Some will be able to do both like Trails / WC / Offroad racing but ultimately there are fundemental differences.

The only question is are there enough guys out there to run an event or series of events? It would be a real PIA to build a truck to only race it once.

No one can question the success of club class and how important it is to winch challenges. Without it I would not have held the Northland WC as there weren't enough Challenge class trucks in going order. So is an outlaw class going to do the same or is it just something for a few select people?
As it stands I wouldn't include an outlaw class in the current event I run but having it held seperatly is not out of the question.

I think running in a winch Challenge type event without doors is dangerous! I think you need some sort of protection from branches etc. This isn't saying you need an oem door just something like the roof to keep you safe. eg 2mm ali or similar.
I've busted so many doors that i really don't think I'd still be here without them!!!!!!!!!!!!

to be honest i doubt whether outlaw class can be a success here, it has been tried without success, not enough population!!!, you may get half a dozen entries but is that enough, in oz how much is the population? how many enter tuff truck??
what happenes with rock rash should just evolve. here outlaw class would have a very limited base of entries.
my 2 cents karam

so what is rock rash?????

darinz wrote:This is what happened in Oz. They tried a more open winch challenge class but it ended up tuff truck, and is a completely seperate event. Something that we are aware of and while I like the idea of an outlaw class I think it is really a seperate type of event. Some will be able to do both like Trails / WC / Offroad racing but ultimately there are fundemental differences.

The only question is are there enough guys out there to run an event or series of events? It would be a real PIA to build a truck to only race it once.

No one can question the success of club class and how important it is to winch challenges. Without it I would not have held the Northland WC as there weren't enough Challenge class trucks in going order. So is an outlaw class going to do the same or is it just something for a few select people?
As it stands I wouldn't include an outlaw class in the current event I run but having it held seperatly is not out of the question.

To me it seems obvious.

The reason you won't get enough outlaw entries, is that you are legislating against the potential entrants.

You need to stand back and look at the types of competition 4x4's that are already running in the country, and ask your self "how could we get those guy's and their trucks interested in this side of 4x4 sport".

From there, you design a class that could cater for these types of vehicles.

I.E, D Class trucks with a winch.

Nobody is going to build a truck specifically for a class that doesn't yet exist, so you have to start growing it.

I see your point though, potentially, we get the fastest and most powerfull class, having the least amount of saftey requirements, which is obviously wrong.

More thinking needed ...................

mazdamike wrote:so what is rock rash?????

Rockrash is just a trip that a few of us with rockcrawlers went on behind lake Coleridge in the South Island, best crawling in the country. Not a competition at all, just a wheeling trip.
Look here
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14523
http://www.kroc.co.nz/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=173&start=180

This sort of thing could be developed into an event, but again there's only a small number of us with crawlers that actually move!

Actually the more I think about it, it would take a bit of work, but you could run a Tuff truck style event at Rallywoods or Costa Plenty, need lots of digging, excavating, gathering of large amounts of big rocks tho

outlaw = blown v8's with 54" tires
outlaw = best ruck you can build to do the job
whats the point of a tire limit ??

there wouldnt be a limit on tyres, but who in nz would have the running gear to rooster tail 44's with out blowing somthing, little old saf diffs or hilux with longs wont last 1 good flogging

A short corse comp like trials but with a winch, run on time and penalized if you use the winch (like some of the Aussie comps). Low speed witch gets rid of a few safty factors (doors, windscreens etc), and you can compete in what ever (winch truck, trials truck, jafa's truck or mum's prado). All on the same corse with a couple of classes eg road leagle, or tyre size with best over all wins the big prize (a chocolate fish).
Doing short corses makes set up easy and can be held in a small area with easy viewing. And you can get a lot of tracks done in one day. less marshals and less bordom for dom.
A winch comp trials style

mudhaw wrote:A short corse comp like trials but with a winch, run on time and penalized if you use the winch (like some of the Aussie comps). Low speed witch gets rid of a few safty factors (doors, windscreens etc), and you can compete in what ever (winch truck, trials truck, jafa's truck or mum's prado). All on the same corse with a couple of classes eg road leagle, or tyre size with best over all wins the big prize (a chocolate fish).
Doing short corses makes set up easy and can be held in a small area with easy viewing. And you can get a lot of tracks done in one day. less marshals and less bordom for dom.
A winch comp trials style

a bit like the CZ TR events, we use trials trucks, winch strapped to front, 3 vehicles and 1 hr to complete, load of fun and team work

pedro

vvega wrote:outlaw = blown v8's with 54" tires
outlaw = best ruck you can build to do the job
whats the point of a tire limit ??

Yep that aint gonna happen, you got the readies for it?, me either. Now if someone wants to spend 150-200k on an outlaw buggy, be my guest, I wont mind coming second place to that, half the fun is making something on the cheap to beat it. No one mentioned a tire limit for a tufftruck style event, it was proposed for an event running on the same course as a winch challenge, which is probably not a workable idea.

Heres abit from the Tufftruck rules in Oz,
All vehicles must meet the following requirements to be eligible for entry to TTC09:

# The vehicle originally started its life or was designed and/or manufactured by the maker as a 4WD vehicle.

# Windscreens are mandatory and must be fitted in a raised position as per manufactures specifications or by verification approval.

# Retains the look of the original 4WD vehicle, comprising 80% of the original front profile and 50% of the original side profile from the B-pillar forward.

# Re-made body panels are acceptable, so long as they are readily identifiable to the scrutineering team.

# The chassis used on the vehicle must be from a vehicle that was originally designed and/or manufactured as a 4WD with a transfer case consisting of both low and high range. There is no minimum amount of original chassis stipulated, but some must be used. The chassis must have the chassis or vehicle identification number (VIN) visible and attached.

# The body used on the vehicle must be from a vehicle that was originally designed and/or manufactured as a 4WD with a transfer case consisting of both low and high range.

# Vehicles registered as 'Individually Constructed Vehicles' are not eligible to compete. Vehicle bodies such the Bushranger are deemed acceptable to enter TTC09”. Acceptance of what might be considered a "hybrid" vehicle is on a case by case basis-refer to the Competition Manager.

Kinda the jist of what i was aiming at, perhaps a few alterations needed to allow for a trials truck, but honestly a trials truck probably aint gonna cut it in a Tufftruck style event, too low, too short, no crawler gears.
Maybe this tufftruck thing is another thread on its own....
So how many trials competitors want to enter something different?, maybe not so many, got only two at Whakatane a few years ago.

i think cheap is a subjective thing
but my words were more what outlaw means to me

i mean i see where your comming from and i think there needs to be something your truck can compete in
i like those rules .. and really i think that encompasses what people want to do
i think outlaw is the wrong word to use to describe it
but a new class is needed

the other idea is ... if you organise it .. they will come
maybe instead of regurgitating the same idea over and over again if someone could start a planning/ event process we could gauge real interest

if there was a event in hamilton ... show of hands for who would turn up ?
if it was just open class run what you have ?
so pete in thunderguts jafa in the jallopy wopass in the tre fiddy forty steve in his winch truck and blackcrusier in his trial truck

all just going for it and having a good time .. or am i right off base

I think that outlaw class should be popular with those that have non-road legal trucks built for the bush, this of course means that windscreens & doors are out. If you look at the couple of trucks that entered the Whakatane event, this i basicaly what was there. I really doubt that many D class trials guys would be interested, but I suspect that some of the F class trucks would be more suited to this kind of thing.
The windscreen issue can be easily sorted by welding some mesh into the front hoop of the roll-cage & most of these trucks have side bars to protect legs anyway so the doors issue isn't really there.
Personally I think this would be awesome fum, just stick the winch back ont the front of the rally truck & off we go......

I think we should have a class JUST for stock standard Suzukis.

Imagine 10-15 413's hauling around a course at once, it would be like watching an ants nest at dinner time.

So someone organise an event and see who turns up.
Make it no limits, basic safety ie rollcage and then set some tracks and do it. Start with a one day thing somewhere central so guys can come from north and south.
Then after you've had one you can then develop it further.
This is how the club class was developed so has to be a pretty good model to follow?

I think you just need to release you aren't really talking about winch challenge as it is currently run but a sport somewhere between WC and rock crawling. I guess it is like the rock racing (eg KOH) that is taking off in the US but with an NZ flavour. ie diy, cheap and more mud than rocks.

vvega wrote:i think outlaw is the wrong word to use to describe it
but a new class is needed

ya I think I'm going off on another tangent compared to an outlaw class, I think I'm heading down the Tuff Truck, Aussie/US , style rather than another winch challenge class.....
I should just bung a spare radiator in the front and bolt on a set of 35's and enter club class if I wanted do do a winch challenge

Andrew1706 wrote:I think we should have a class JUST for stock standard Suzukis.

Imagine 10-15 413's hauling around a course at once, it would be like watching an ants nest at dinner time.

now thats just fawkin silly!!