Offroad-Express

So there I am at work today and was thinking of a recent life insurance claim that was paid to a estate, reading the file to finalize it and there was a report in there from the recovery guys and they stated that they had to winch the car back to the road...

That got me thinking, I have seen a few recoveries in my time by tow trucks and like and then it dawned on me, they DON'T use winch dampeners... why the fark not? We HAVE to use them when we winch but they don't? Strange I thought...

So my point is, why don't they have to use them when there are heaps more people around watching and not paying attention to what MAY happen and the recovery people are busy watching the vehicle be winched up and they haven't checked to make sure that everyone is clear... crazy or what I say...

All comments welcome and a good discussion thread I feel.

Funnily enough I asked a towie once why he didn't use a damper. He asked "a what" After a short discussion he said he had never heard of it but figured it could hurt but couldn't see the point as he had never had a cable fail in over 20yrs towing.

Most towies use cable way in excess of what is probably required for a car. In saying that I was with a towie picking a hilux out of some trees the other day and after initally using a chain around the tow bar , once he had it up a bit the tow hook went onto the tongue behind the towball. Needless to say I steped back and sideways.

Winch dampners and synthetic ropes are to keep the greenies and do gooder's happy.

Remember, image is everything.

Saw a lwb pajaro being pulled out of the tide, fully underwater, tow cable only had 3 wraps on the drum and about 4meters of chain on the end. made comment on safety was told that he nomally rips the roof off before cable breaks, (chain around B pillar) when I asked about recoil told not an issue normally. I moved well out of the recoil arc and moved all the guys I work with, most other people moved to when we said "think we should move out of the cable recoil arc should it break or come lose"
Supprised the tow industry is so relaxed about the safety issue in this OSH rich environment we have in NZ.

I think keep you and yours safe and let them worry about there work accidents. I know not the best attitude but no point trying to talk to someone does not want to listen.
only my 2 cents

this subject often arises during drinks at the end of a day Has anyone seen a winch wire rope break while being winched?(under Load) and If you have, did the rope recoil ?
I have seen straps break, tow hooks and mounting points with scary results. I have seen skyline (logging) wires break and they dont recoil just drop to the ground Is this another urban myth??

don't think the wire cable on mythbusters did much either as they tried to use it the make a car do a 90 dec corner

I have seen a winch get pulled off the front of a Bighorn, all the mounting bolts snapped(4 8mm bolts from factory)
The winch flew sideways still attached to its cable. It went about 10-12 metres sideways and landed 2 metres in front of me, we were standing on a bank about 3-4 above and off to the side of the trucks watching.

On the subject of towing strops or snatch straps in this case, i have had a first hand experiance with a towing hook mounted on a tow bar tongue breaking the welds on the tongue hook insert, and hurtling towards the vehicle that was stuck, luckily the hook tongue insert went under the vehicle and hit the chassis,it could have gone through the rear screen of the hilux and taken his mates head off!!!
This is an all impotant lesson that could have been a disasterous mess but luckily i got a second chance, never never again

I guess there is a magical calculation (load vs diameter of wire) that shows the bigger the diameter the heavier it is and therefore the lesslikely it is to fly anywhere should it break. Ofcoures should I be anywhere where it looks dangerous (even with a dampner on), I'll get the feck out of the way as Old man Murphy has a bastard of a sense of humour.

Just as a side question. If the wire is stretched along its length and we put a dampner on the that is attached longitudinaly (sp?), if it breaks will the wire not just travel through the dampners attachment points? Unless it is physically attached to the wire of course. We all use the assumption that wire will fail on the otherside of the dampner and will "save us" but wire doesnt always do that...

I was at a teams recovery event recently where a truck was being pulled up around a tree, up a bank, then around another tree all up hill. All this on a wire rope (about 35 to 40 metres) and instead of a winch another 2 trucks were towing. The rope fraid then broke there wasnt any dampers( not that they would do anything) I expected the rope to flay but it just dropped to the ground.. I think there is a greater danger in straps breaking as the strap stretches then breaks then recoils back to its natural lenght. yet we dont have any type of damping systems for straps. I note that some clubs in USA require the straps to be replaced after every tenth time its used

Previous to this seris of posts I suggested that perhaps we coiuld do the following...but was rather quicky shot down in flames.Personally i think it a rathergood idea.

Before attaching the rope/snatch to the hook using a shackle attach a tree trunk protector to the end of the snatch.Then put the snatch only over the hook.Attach the other end of the tree trunk protector to either another hook on the vehicle or some other strong point.Should the primary hook fail the tree trunk protector will stop the snatch going too far.
This method isnt perfect but would reduce some of the risk of flying objects.

Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

tallsam66 wrote:Previous to this seris of posts I suggested that perhaps we coiuld do the following...but was rather quicky shot down in flames.Personally i think it a rathergood idea.

Before attaching the rope/snatch to the hook using a shackle attach a tree trunk protector to the end of the snatch.Then put the snatch only over the hook.Attach the other end of the tree trunk protector to either another hook on the vehicle or some other strong point.Should the primary hook fail the tree trunk protector will stop the snatch going too far.
This method isnt perfect but would reduce some of the risk of flying objects.

Thats not a bad idea, but you'd need to do it at both ends, have experianced tow hooks breaking, straightening out, broken snatch staps & broke my winch wire, had a dampner on it but don't know if it flayed around has I was too busy ducking behind the steering wheel. Much easier to have accident when snatching imo.

DJ wrote:this subject often arises during drinks at the end of a day Has anyone seen a winch wire rope break while being winched?(under Load) and If you have, did the rope recoil ?
I have seen straps break, tow hooks and mounting points with scary results. I have seen skyline (logging) wires break and they dont recoil just drop to the ground Is this another urban myth??

yep i broke a wire rope back in the day on my cruiser up thompsons, it carved down half a doz saplings then barked the hell out of a pine before it stopped. lucky the trees were all there really, bought a cable damper not long after that...

ohh and i broke it again a few weeks later when i drove off down the road with the pto in gear, it dragged all my barwork into the fairlead then broke the rope which recoiled under the truck and left marks all over the place

DaveM wrote:Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

Yes there is a shackel involved..but its not going far the tree trunk protector stops it.

tallsam66 wrote:

DaveM wrote:Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

Yes there is a shackel involved..but its not going far the tree trunk protector stops it.

True, unless the 2nd backup mount breaks. If there is enough force to break one hook, who knows if the second will withstand the sudden force put on it? I'm not against the idea, in fact it was an option given by an instructor of my course, but he pointed out both sides to this setup

DaveM wrote:

tallsam66 wrote:

DaveM wrote:Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

Yes there is a shackel involved..but its not going far the tree trunk protector stops it.

True, unless the 2nd backup mount breaks. If there is enough force to break one hook, who knows if the second will withstand the sudden force put on it? I'm not against the idea, in fact it was an option given by an instructor of my course, but he pointed out both sides to this setup

if you were to use this method it would be better to use the second strop as a bridle if one hook breaks the strechy will slid off the bridle strop and basicly fall with no power left in it as the sudden lease willof happened whilst it was still looped thru the bridle
best of both worlds and no shackle seen in the whole system.
if the owners are concerned about both ends of the strechy then bridle both ends still no shackle being used.
and as i by factor it distrubes the load evenly to booth sides of the chassis which has to be a good thing as well

this subject often arises during drinks at the end of a day Has anyone seen a winch wire rope break while being winched?(under Load) and If you have, did the rope recoil ?

Yes, twice. First time it recoiled back between two vehicles about 20 mtrs, no dampner. the second time with a dampner and it fell straight to the ground within 5 mtrs. I am a convert of dampners. I use synthetic, dynabraid now, I dont get that cringe anymore when you hear rope under load. Wire makes shit loads of bad noise, synthetic dosen't.
Al

ive seen a trawel warp break on a fishing boat after the door fouled.
Broke at the block and left 5mm deep goughs all down the side of the steal wheel house .
I hide behind a tree as soon as i here that creaking wire sound, gives me the shivers.

ok with all that kinetic energy being released when a wire breaks how does a damper help prevent an accident?

threading the recovery strap through a tree trunk protector or tow strap or another strap of equal or greater size will act as a dampner if you dont have one , you can spread each end out over half way if its a longer one.

I was Marshalling at a denny's once and a cable broke, hit the bank i was standing on off to the side, the whole bank shuddered. I slowly walked off and emptied my pants

I was Marshalling at a denny's once and a cable broke, hit the bank i was standing on off to the side, the whole bank shuddered

when Dennys winch challenge was still using wire ropes it was a requirment to use a damper and I have no dout one would have been used in this incident ... so why didnt the damper work?
( and yes, when every I see someone using a winch or snatch strap, either wire or syn rope, I get the hell out of there)

DJ wrote:

I was Marshalling at a denny's once and a cable broke, hit the bank i was standing on off to the side, the whole bank shuddered

when Dennys winch challenge was still using wire ropes it was a requirment to use a damper and I have no dout one would have been used in this incident ... so why didnt the damper work?
( and yes, when every I see someone using a winch or snatch strap, either wire or syn rope, I get the hell out of there)

not sure, just remember there not being a damper on the bit that broke and hit the bank. It was quite a long winch which would have had something to do with it.

DJ wrote:ok with all that kinetic energy being released when a wire breaks how does a damper help prevent an accident?

A dampener doesn't prevent an accident, it is intended to minimise the risk of injury should a rope break.
A wire rope that has been tightly wound on a winch drum and then breaks under tension will recoil with disastrous results to any human flesh and bones that are in its path.
A dampener should be of a minimum weight and size and should be in the centre third of the winch rope been used if it is to have a chance of been effective if a rope breaks.
However there is no guarantee that it will be on the correct side of a flying broken winch rope when it does break. If it is then it becomes a 'sail' and reduces the 'flight' of the rope.
A dampener is better than nothing but won't prevent accidents or injury as you suggest.

The other thing is standing behind a tree is no protection from a recoiling winch rope as the rope will coil itself around the tree and you.
All bystanders should be well away from any winching area. If 50m's of winch rope in use then they should all be at least 100m's away.

Ralfie wrote: If 50m's of winch rope in use then they should all be at least 100m's away.

Sorry that bit doesn't make any sense.....how can 50m of cable travel 100m???????

50m radius equals 100m diameter....
thanks ncea lol

i had my winch cable break on the safari with no damper (still a newbie then)

it killed my bonnet windscreen and left a few massive dents in the roof front and back

was pretty scary

i'll find my vid of fj40s hook mount breaking on his old zuk

tallsam66 wrote:

DaveM wrote:Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

Yes there is a shackel involved..but its not going far the tree trunk protector stops it.

There's some videos around on the web somewhere of this technique, but can't for the life of me find them. This is nice to do when you are a bit suspicious of the quality of a recovery point.

No need to use a shackle, just join tree protector the the snatch strop like when joining two strops. Except there is no need to put something in the join as you aren't expecting it to be loaded.

pjb wrote:

tallsam66 wrote:

DaveM wrote:Some instructors teach this method, but others stay away due to a shackle being involved

Yes there is a shackel involved..but its not going far the tree trunk protector stops it.

There's some videos around on the web somewhere of this technique, but can't for the life of me find them. This is nice to do when you are a bit suspicious of the quality of a recovery point.

No need to use a shackle, just join tree protector the the snatch strop like when joining two strops. Except there is no need to put something in the join as you aren't expecting it to be loaded.

this only applies if the moving truck stops before the lenght of the second strap other wise the moving truck will get a 3mtr extra run and after the hook has parted and then load the second hook with a lot more shock loading than on the first hook.
a lot safer to just use a bridle between booth hooks. if the hook fails then as the moving trucks moves forward the rope will just slide down the bidle lenght leaving it laying on the ground and/or trailing behind the recovering vehicle leaving the stuck truck still stuck
no shackles no secondary shock loading etc etc

chevrolux wrote:50m radius equals 100m diameter....
thanks ncea lol

That still means you only need to be 50m away......well 55 to be safe!!!!!