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SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:21 pm
by doggoneit
Well I recently purchased an SJ413 softtop in pretty good nick. Motor appears to go well. The truck is damn noisy over say 50km in 4th and real noisy in 5th - not sure if it's the gearbox or transfer. Anyway I have been given a toyota 4age + toyota gearbox with an adapted short shaft to mount up to SJ413 transfer (use to be in SJ410). I am in limbo at the moment and don't know whether to proceed in ripping out existing motor and box to replace with 4age or sort gearbox/trans noise and stick with SJ413 1300. I guess I just know as soon as I start ripping things out it is likely to be out of action for some time - will need to have new engine mounts welded in for 4age + some electrical work. So should I stop procrastinating and get on with it??? Cheers
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:36 pm
by lincooln
I say do it, and add the lower ratio transfer case gears too.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:04 am
by UBZ
is it currently road legal?
Stock gearboxes and transfer cases are cheap
No such thing as a simple engine conversion . Would need to be certed well.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:15 am
by kernels
UBZ wrote:is it currently road legal?
Stock gearboxes and transfer cases are cheap
No such thing as a simple engine conversion . Would need to be certed well.
+1
Even a straight engine swap has taken me three times as long as initially estimated.
Is that 4AGE one of the older carburetted (spelling?) ones ? Would be much easier to get going than one with fuel injection.
Not 100% sure about the SJ413, but from my experience Vitara gearboxes are alway noisy once they approach 200k. Mine was bought noisy and over the past 20k it hasn't gotten any better or worse, may rebuild it someday, probably just a couple of bearing need replacing.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:35 am
by doggoneit
Thanks for the quick responses. Yes it is currently road legal - I have just put rego on hold as it has just come time to renew.
The 4age is fuel injected - it was in an SJ410 so has all the wiring loom, computer etc + adapter off back of toyota gearbox to SJ trans.
It is a tuffy - why mess with a perfectly good SJ as it may be minor gearbox or trans issue making noise. On the flip so - go to effort of putting free 4age in and have double the horses.
I bought it from a guy in Auckland and in the same day drove it back to Wellington - with ear plugs
Went well but the noise was horrendous
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:25 am
by DieselBoy
No such thing as an easy engine swap.
If you could just slap some new engine mounts in everyone would be doing it.
You will need at a minimum:
New Engine mounts
New Gearbox cross member
New Radiator + relocate
New Fan + relocate
New Exhaust
Relocate gear shift hole in floor
Retrofit hydraulic Clutch system
Rewire the dash etc to run EFI system
New front spings to cope with extra weight
Power steering to compensate for the extra weight on the front wheels
Drive shaft hoop
Certification
The 4age goes well in a road car. It makes all its power at the top end of the rev range. Not at all what you want for off road.
Couple that with the stock Suzuki gearing and its a pretty average combination for our NZ conditions.
Fit reduction gears to the transfer and they are better.
Thats my opinion, others will disagree, but being able to crawl along at 800rpm in 2nd and not stall, then being able to stand on it and the motor respond strongly is were its at. The standard motor will do that.
If you have the 4age sitting there in your shed, you can weld and wire stuff up, fit it. You could then swap it for a 7afe in the future, which is a 2l and will bolt to your mounts and g.box and have massive torque for a 4cyl
If not, stick with the standard motor and g.box, re-gear the transfer case and get out there and drive it, they don't need huge Hp to run rings around the bigger trucks!!!!!!
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:18 pm
by Terry
Coincidentally, I've been stripping a sj413 and got it down to the rolling chassis, plus gbox and tcase, yesterday. I don't know what condition they're in (the guy i bought it off received it without a motor so hed' never run it) but he thought they should be OK and because I don't know the condition (other than the boot for teh gearbox lever is ripped, and the knobs are missing). I was going to keep these for spares, but don't actually need them (as much as I need money, anyway), so if you like I don't want a lot for it / them - would $150 for the pair be unreasonable?. anyway - pm me if you're at all interested.
cheers,
Terry
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:55 pm
by doggoneit
Cheers DieselBoy - sounds like good advice. I guess that is why I haven't started pulling it apart yet - knowing it will be a bigger job than expected. I may be able to sell the 4age + box to go towards re-gear of trans case. I see a guy on tardme selling an 1800 nissan and turbo out of his SJ413 to put a lexus V8 in - now that would be some power for little SJ
This is a toy for me and doesn't need to be a regular drive which is why I was thinking the more power option for fun.
Hi Terry, I will send you a PM and get in touch. Cheers
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:39 pm
by doggoneit
Well I have decided to go the 4age route - against good advice
I did buy the SJ413 as something to play with and although it will be off the road for some time (still have the safari though to get about in), I think I will really enjoy the project and learn heaps. Started taking the front apart yesterday ready to take engine and gearbox out over the next week or so. I already have the 4age + toyota gearbox and a shaft to mate to suzuki transfer case. Also have wiring loom and computer + full exhaust as it all came out of a SJ410.
Any idea what I might be able to sell SJ413 1300 and gearbox for?
I will take pics as I go and do a project build if I am not to lazy. I am also thinking about hilux axles - anyone had experience with the difficulties of this?
Cheers
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:54 pm
by UBZ
Toyota engine,Toyota gear box , hilux axles, ........... Buy a hilux and leave the wee zuki alone , it will be more capable as it is....
My 2c
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:08 pm
by Smurf
UBZ wrote:Toyota engine,Toyota gear box , hilux axles, ........... Buy a hilux and leave the wee zuki alone , it will be more capable as it is....
My 2c
DieselBoy wrote:Here's some weird logic for you.......
As you have found out, changing one thing on a vehicle leads to a whole string of follow on modifications.
For what ever reason you decided to go for the Hilux axles.
Now you find that you get stuck in the ruts way sooner than when you had the zook axles.
So you cut all the gaurds and reweld them, fit a body lift, fit lifted springs, longer shocks, extend the bump stops, modify the fire wall, all to squeeze bigger tyres under it to regain the clearence you lost by putting the Hilux axles under it.
Now the poor little 1600 won't drive the tyres properly.
So you fit a bigger engine again.
The bigger engine keeps ripping the transfercase out.
You ditch the divorced transfercase and fit a different set up.
Now the next weak link is the axles.
Again.
So were did it get you??
You have a rig that weighs the same as a Hilux with out the benefit of the hilux wheel base.
Should have bought a Hilux then eh
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:52 pm
by Heath
if its a narrow track you could find some wide track axles for it, or just fit wider offset rims to give that wider stance. I had 15x7's on my 87 413 with 30/9.5 hankook RT01's and it was fine.
Spend your money on some springs and shocks, tyres and rims and forget the toyota stuff (except for the donk of course).
If you need to regear the axles use vitara front diff R and P's to lower everything. Find a post 84 410 t case (almost straight bolt in job) and get a simple 12% lower gears to compensate for the bigger tyres (just have a little fiddling to do with the drive shaft flanges). This would be my next step after wheels and tyres, cause they will run away with std gearing (scares the shit out of ya the first time) on down hills and you use the clutch a little more. I wouldnt bother with a rockhopper 4.16 gear set unless you intend to rock crawl.
Rear brakes next, find some disks for the rear (use your front ones and get some slotted rotors for the front (BNT)), What Scotty is doing is almost what I would do (but I'd achieve it a lot slower...
)
My little zuk was a giant killer when it was drive right (not by me) and never ceased to amaze me where it would go, only thing was its narrow gauge, but you get used to it and it helps in rutted tracks as you cant fit in the normal track so have more grip (sometimes).
Oh and dont bother snatch towing a LWB safari with it, cause it wont work and you'll just get whiplash
. Trust me I know.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:58 pm
by doggoneit
Thanks for the replies. UBZ and Smurf - I use to have a hilux and now have a nissan safari - so big truck sorted. I like the light SJ413 and am enjoying mucking around with it. Parts are so much lighter and easier to work on than bigger trucks. Good way to learn.
Heath I probably will stick with the standard axles - just wanted to know if it was worth considering others? How wide can you go with offset rims before things start breaking? Also interested on SPOA views - is it just an american 'mine is taller than yours' fad? It looks to me like you are just raising the COG.
Ta
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:32 am
by Swamped
There was a bit mentioned on that in my build thread.
http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18446&start=15Listen to DB and UBZ. They know what they are on about. I wouldn't go 4age either but least it will be an interestin experiment. The twin cam g13 I would have found preferential, straight bolt in but theres other little bits and pieces that had to be done. One went for 200 on trademe the other day even.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:05 am
by doggoneit
Hi Swamped - why wouldn't you go the 4age??? I guess I am because it was free, comes with gearbox and adaptor, also has all wiring and exhaust system. It does seem a shame to pull out the 1300 in good nick - there does appear to be some well set up SJ413s with 4ages on youtube. I hear they are lacking in torque low down and love to rev - I am hoping to balance this out by changing the TC ratios.
Keep the advice coming please.
Cheers
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:47 am
by lilpigzuk
doggoneit wrote:. I hear they are lacking in torque low down and love to rev - I am hoping to balance this out by changing the TC ratios.
Keep the advice coming please.
Cheers
I had a G13B, was told it would be useless offroad as it was a revvy engine, which it was (revvy not useless) That was in a 410 with 4.16 transfer. I would happily go back to a G13B in another zuk. My last truck had a 4AFE in it (DBs current winch truck) Same thing, put a 4.16 Transfer and it went really well. Never used it in high range so cant comment on the top speed
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:13 pm
by Swamped
The other 413 we have is noisy in every gear except 4th, before and after a full rebuild.
Personally I would set it up and drive it with the current engine if its in good nick. I like to drive slowly along at sensible revs and let it climb over obstacles. Ringing the nuts off an engine for the same performance isn't really my thing. Driven a diesel for too long perhaps.
With the g13b twin cam it isn't pushing the limits too much performance-wise or fabricationwise which would suit me better. I would want something reasonably straight forward to build and reliable in the field.
Just personal pref.
Given you got your engine for free and everything needed, by all means go hard. If you can fit/fab everything yourself you will be ok pricewise.
You might be able to find a conversion already done that you could go for a ride along in maybe too.
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:34 pm
by doggoneit
Perhaps we should swap parts out of our gearboxes - might end up with 2 quiet ones
I know what you mean about the diesel - I love having the ability to just idle over stuff in the 4.2 safari. Not sure I agree about ringing it's nuts off for same performance - big difference in power between the 1300 and 4age - but yes heaps different delivery. I have spoken to a guy and hope to have a look at his Sj with 4age soon. Will do that before I rip the engine out.
Cheers
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:45 am
by Clint
doggoneit wrote:there does appear to be some well set up SJ413s with 4ages on youtube. I hear they are lacking in torque low down and love to rev - I am hoping to balance this out by changing the TC ratios.
Keep the advice coming please.
Cheers
The 4A-GE may be a revvy performance oriented motor, but it is important to remember that they make TWICE AS MUCH power as the ol 1300, & more torque at any revs. I put a TVIS 4A-GE in my old 413 & it totally rocked. It did destroy a couple of K-50 gearboxes so go for a T-50 if you can, but I did shitloads of kms in mine & some serious thrashing in the bush. The swap cost about $2K getting most of the bits cheap or free & having the help of some talented mates but it was well worth it.
Not sure how noisy your gbox is but the original 5spd in my 413 was pretty rowdy from the day I bought it to the day it came out about 70 000km later to put in the 4A-GE.
Cheers
Clint
Re: SJ413 crossroad - advice sought
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:30 am
by doggoneit
Thanks Clint.
I have taken out the 1300 and sold it - so no going back now. Over the weekend I cut off the old engine mounts and am currently working out the new ones to fit the 4age - need to fabricate these and a new gearbox support. Thinking of completely removing the body to give me easy access. This is not going to be quick - I am just really enjoying playing around with stuff
To get the 4age + gearbox + exhaust was all free - well maybe a bit of my own time doing a favour - so hopefully it wont cost me a packet all up.
Cheers,
Blair