Offroad-Express

I have just been to the wellington outdoor walking access meeting.

This is to start the discussion off for submissions. Each and everyone of you must put your views down. I am going to try and outline the good points of the meeting and try to describe the bad ones(didn't take much notice they were getting side tracked a bit)

The main points agreed by both sides(land owners, users of public land) was that:
what is currently in place needs to be noted down and made available to the public as they just don't know(no definitive source) what is a public and a private road! We need to get what we have out there made available as the first step.

If we are to respect private property rights then the private property owners need to respect public property rights. This had to do with paper roads being fenced off and gated.

There were issues with unauthorized access onto peoples farms without permission and osh regulations with these. According to somebody who wasin attendance, who used to be an authority in the matter, when someone ventures onto private land without permission they are liable. with permission the farmer only has to describe dangers of an un-usual nature such as blasting etc. Normal day to day runnings of a farm the person entering the property is liable. The only loop hole, which has not been taken to court as of yet, is when a farmer is say mowing and a stone flicks up and hits someone in the river bed say. Link to the relevant bit -> http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/publications/walking-access-consultation/appendix-6.html

I raised issues with information and education. I'm not the most powerful speaker infact I was actually quite nervous but I did take my turn to speak and spoke of accessing information of land owners to get permission to cross their land. It seemed to me that confrontations happen between land owners and un authorised access. If authorised access can be obtained, by an easily obtainable phone number, then both parties win. Even if a fee is charged both parties still win.

An issue raised by the city council is if more access is granted to people then more damage to forests through fire and vandalism ie contractors equipment etc. I tried to interject that the vandalism occurs because there are no people around to see it and that more people around would deter crime due to the increased chance of being caught. One lady said she had lived on the queens chain for 5 years and not had any trouble because of the amount of people passing through. Farmers I believe would get an increase of security as there would be more eye witnesses! Relevant link-> http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/publications/walking-access-consultation/access-related-issues-etc.html#rural-crime

Farmers stated that people do not shut gates!!! even with signs. I thought education of what happens when a gate is not shut should be made available. Every city person thinks its only a gate what does it matter for crying out loud. A farmers thoughts on people being in a place on a farm where they shouldn't be were they can cause damage. One such farmer said if Mountain bikers went through a paddock filled with sheep, depending on what situation was with those sheep some could end up dead in a creek! To me that is education and should be made available. After all we go to the countryside to look at the land and the animals, also it would interesting to know some of general farming happenings.

In my brief moment of fame I mentioned that access onto private land to get to public land ie rivers and parks etc 4wds often end up clearing small slips on tracks, remove fallen logs etc but what I neglected to mention was that we are often a good information source for the farmer as well on stock movements, broken fences etc

I realise this is a big post but I'm just giving you a heads up for your meeting and if you've already have ibeen then these are just some of the issues that came up at the meeting I attended. There were some deviations from the main subject line by peeved off farmers with trespasser problems. He even had signage up which was being ripped down. This is more a policing problem though than an access problem. It came up that in Germany(not by me although I agree, remember I used to live there) that the public could wander through farms and forests if there were tracks which went right through farm buildings etc. But remember they have 90 million people and their culture sustains that and it is also tradition over there. the majority of those tracks are boundaries. Over here we have a very different view. If we see someone we think who is that trespassing! Private Access Link -> http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/publications/walking-access-consultation/issues-on-which-agreement-etc.html#refusal

It was also brought up about paper roads where the river has changed its course and deviated from the paper road. What happens here? now when that paper road goes right through a farmers field and the river is 200m to the right what should happen? A farmer suggested the common sense approach to remove the paper road and have it where ther river now flows. I thought the same, just make them follow the river in future.

The meeting pretty much concluded with an understanding by all that we cant loose any more access but to retain what we have and move to reopen existing access that has been shut down over the last decade or so. Information to be made readily available to obtain this access whether it be web based or map based or by some other means. On a side note it was stated that Linz is telling councils to remove paper roads and un-used bits and pieces from their DB's so that they can clean them out... This was a bit vague but was quite interesting none the less. the direction of the floor was moved away from this quite quickly.


It was agreed by all that an access agency be formed to provide the leadership for all these matters. We need an authoritative body when dealing with this stuff, as an example it took 5 years for a bloke up north to get a public road cleared so he could get access to a beach. in the end he had to go to the ombudsman to get his road opened. An access panel should be charged with these matters.

Pretty much all the information that meeting is contained in the following link. click on the sub sections.
http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/pub-consult-doc.html

Well hope I didn't bore you to much

Mike

cheers for that. i wondered what had happened as i couldnt get there.

Excellent summation, and an important heads-up for those of us who will attend the meetings in our respective areas. Thanks and thank you for your contribution.

Very interesting, most of those issues I have heard of first or second hand... which is good.... will be interesting down here...

Here is another 4wders report of the same meeting. Pity I cant write as good

Yeah, I was expecting a lot more 4wd'ers there, there were only 2 others
that I recognised (Mike and Alan). (please correct me if I have anything
wrong here)

There was only one person who stood up saying 4wd'er were are problem,
although this was only someone crossing a public road on private land that
rolled in a washout and drowned, police were considering prosecuting for 6
months...others had issues seemed to be with walkers and bikers, One farmer
(forget who) had a big problem with boy racers and the like..., perhap there
is a synergy here that we can help the landowner to deal with a problem to
gain access and more importantly respect and tell his mates. one guy pointed
out his farm is his bread and butter, I can agree with this, we have to
respect their property.

Landowners were mainly complaining about people walking all over their
property and not respecting it, their views were the easiest thing they can
do is refuse all access, there were also talks about fire liabilitys as well
and who pays for damage on private land

Discussion was held re paper roads, some semblence of agreement was made
that clarification of paper roads would be good and perhaps legally move
these so it flows thru adjacant properties better solving access problems.
perhaps we could raise this with affected landowners and lobby with them for
a solution to the appropiate councils.

Soneone asked "does this include wheeled access", the reply was this looks
at walking access only but will look at any submission.

There were people from all sides, mainly landowners on the right and various
groups on the left, eg kayakers, hunters, a few fishers, a rep from doc and
a city counciller and an MP were there as well...

There was a discussion about OSH and that the landowner gets the OSH
liability if someone comes on their land whether legally or illegially

My suggestions based on what was discussed at the meeting and what to
include in the submission are

- We push 4wd clubs as responsible users
- help maintain tracks etc
- find a solution that benefits all
- willing to keep access on a permit system ie only clubs and those who
apply for permits have access
- encourage 4wd users of tracks etc to join a 4wd club, and help educate
them
- explian we carry fire and safety gear and know basic first aid
- 4wd assn clubs are insured for fire etc
- we often come across other users in peril
- 4wd'ers and other groups help affected landowners maintain paper road
access
- We want it defined where and where not we can go
- better maps
- We are willing to pay landowner for access
- We shut gates
- we volunteer in the community eg CD, fundraising and other activities
- 4wd clubs have assisted farmers in recent floods.

Mike

Another Report re Wellington, published with permission of course

For those invited, I must admit I was honoured to attend today's NGO meeting
with John Acland in Wellington

Nothing went smoothly - other than the remarkable persona John Acland
brought to these proceedings. We had landowners ( a mix of Maori and
European), recreational users - walkers, hikers, 4WD'ers , kayakers the mix
was endless

What did emerge, was several key points:-

* No-one wants to see confiscation of land rights - Maori or European
* The legal road network is our most valuable asset - whether they be
formed or unformed
* We need to understand that landowners experience some costs
associated with maintaining walkways and roads - whether they are legal or
not is irrelevant.
* We need to make certain a mechanism is in place to allow landowners
to charge a "notional" fee for maintenance without becoming liable under the
H&SE
* The RAM needs to recognise that "deals can be done" to allow access
along alternative routes - as long as it ensures the public have the same
certainty and access in perpetuity.

Now get along to your various meetings and maintain the message

btw there are stakeholder meetings for landowners and clubs, that we the public dont have access to.

Thanks for the info guys. We should try to get to these in we dont want to loose access to the point where we are like England. Over there they have named roads and tracks that they are limited to and go to europe for real driving.