Offroad-Express

For those interested I thought it worth while passing this on:-

WaterWisdom
Dr. Bryan Jenkins, CEO of Environment Canterbury, will
discuss:
"FUTURE DIRECTION FOR WATER MANAGEMENT IN CANTERBURY"

WEDNESDAY 4 OCTOBER 2006, 7:30PM KNOX CHURCH HALL (Corner of
Bealey Ave and Victoria St)

This is an excellent chance to hear what the future could look
like as we try and solve our serious water issues. There will
be ample time for Questions & Answers.

Hosted by The WaterWisdom Society Ph. 379 3873
info@waterwisdom.co.nz

All correspondence should be sent to Steve Terry:
sterry@fishandgame.org.nz. © Copyright 2005 Fish & Game

I will be there and I will post a summary to this forum as I am sure people will want to hear what this is all about.
Paul

Combined 4WD Clubs are working closely with E-Can in Canterbury over access issues in both the Waimakariri River & Waipara River. Here is a quick up date:-
Waimakariri River:-
There is no changes to existing access except that on the Waimak E-Can are fencing more off at the McLeans Island end and part of this is to conserve river works and control access at that point on to the river bed.
This area of the river gets a fair amount of use, and we are encouraging people to use the North Bank more entering at the Eyre River diversion of South Eyre Road, or the stop bank road.
Additionally there is a lot of area to explore on then south side of the river entering at Weedons Ross Road and travelling up stream. There is a huge area out of Weedons Ross Road and also a good track down to Intake Road. Check Topo Map M35 for map details.
Waipara River:-
Again this river is being looked at by E-can due to people straying out of the river bed and getting up on to private land. It is important when using this river that you travel within it’s boundaries. The area that people play on where the river makes a big loop, down stream from the main road bridge and about 3kms upstream from Double Corner road bridge is all on private land. It is getting ripped up, huge tracks apearing up the banks and is a very bad look for us all. Just because a track or vehicle tracks lead off the river bed it does not mean that it is public access track.
Up at the gorge we still have issues with landowners but again this is all being driven through people not keeping to the river bed. E-can, Combined 4WD, Jet boat assn and others are meeting this month to discuss the gorge end of the Waipara, and I will be able to advise more once we see the outcomes of that meeting

access4WD wrote: Up at the gorge we still have issues with landowners but again this is all being driven through people not keeping to the river bed ...

Thank you for the updates provided; however in the brief above you know as well as I that it is misleading to infer that the long standing access issues are "all" resultant of such behaviour.

While I would encourage all recreational users to respect the established paper road along the path of riverbed, definitive legal title of disputed land parcel(s) at the East approach to the Gorge could only be resolved by process of re-survey.

Kevin Dougherty
P.R.O. Southern
O.R.E. 4x4 Assoc.

Went on a drive into the Waipara today, entering from Laidmore Rd only to find there are two fences across the river preventing vehicle access both up and down stream.
The down stream one even has a sign threatning prosecution!

Cut them down

The green and red are the extent of legal titles



push for big pic

Hi Brent C
Simply to state “cut them downâ€

Waipara River Update
The situation in the Waipara river is getting worse due to people recklessly using the river. I am very sad to report that it is getting overused, secondly it is getting abused.
We have met with Land owners who neighbour the river E-can and other user groups, and there will be a move to protect the river, exactly how has yet to be decided, but it is obvious to all stake holders (including us) that something has to happen. A beautiful river bed that could be enjoyed by all is on it’s way of being destroyed. We have to help stop that.
Firstly we can help by spreading the word that the abuse there has to stop!
Vehicle drivers are not sticking to the river bed, vehicles are climbing up banks where they should not, fires are being lit despite a total fire ban in the area, people are defecating with scant disregard to health by not burring properly human waste, leaving rubbish there and so it goes on.
There was a nice grassed picnic area up by the gorge, now it is ruined because some one has used it as donut patch and also driven vehicles up and down banks creating huge and ghastly marks, it is being WRECKED!
Sadly some of the recent abusers have been identified as ‘Offroad Express’ supporters and or users. Guys it has to stop!
Please think about not overusing the Waipara River (I mean the whole river) If you do use it keep convoy numbers down, and try and leave the river BETTER than you found it.
How can we leave it better? If you see damaged river banks repair them, pick up rubbish, properly bury human waste, don’t disturb other river users be considerate of them, and pack out all your rubbish and stick to the main track, above all else at this time of year do not overly drive in the river and play and test out your vehicle as with low water levels river pollution can be an issue.
Please respect this beautiful area, it is not a rubbish dump or playground for people in vehicles to destroy! And if you are going to visit the gorge end then be courteous contact the neighbouring land owner at Claremont and advise your intentions. If he know who is in there it makes it easier to block out the idiot factor.
All of our efforts to keep the Waipara River open to the public will be dashed unless we get some improvements.
Paul

As a side note i think that there needs to be more signage at rivers. At entrances to rivers that you arent meant to be driving in there should be more signage telling people that they are not allowed to drive there or if you are allowed to drive there then which specific areas you can't drive. Generally if i am at a river or other 4wd area i follow the tracks unless they are obviously going where they shouldnt. However there are many places where tracks go where they shouldnt but without a sighn nobody would know.

There is nothing worse than being in an area you should be in but only finding this out when you get "caught".

I am hesitant in writing this post as i think that people wil call me an idiot and tell me that there are lots of signs. well i may be an idiot but i havn't seen many and im sure im not the only one.

The majority of people are not going to go seeking information as to where they should be driving. if there is no clear sign that they shouldnt be where they are then they are just going to drive there anyway.

hope that made sense
Pete

access4WD wrote:Sadly some of the recent abusers have been identified as ‘Offroad Express’ supporters and or users. Guys it has to stop!

Your input & combined clubs on the access issue up there is invaluable, but open ended accusations of this nature don't do any one any good, please be specific about who these "abusers" are, it's not good enough jumping on here and pointing fingers at members, perhaps another way of looking at it is "educate here on ORE", but don't make undocumented accusations that burn us as an organisation.
I'm sure you would be most upset if I jumped online saying the same thing, such as;
" sadly I had seen landrover club members up there abusing it......they mst be landrover club members" "they had stickers"
I guess it's getting to the point where combined clubs is negotiating access for "clubs" to this area to keep out the "hoons"
As you are aware ORE now has a NZ4WD affiliated "association" who have well documented policies for organisation trips our inaugural Association trip being on the coast at Easter, being lead by 3 trip leaders one of whom is me.
We are trying really hard to make the assosiation work, yes the "hoons" are amongst us here but lets not destroy ORE before we even begin
Tim Evans
Vice president of ORE, and Canterbury representive.
P.S how do we get a representative invite to these meetings

Good Reply Pete
What you say applies to many. Signage is an issue and there are moves to do that, and that aspect will improve in time.
However as a general guide, a river boundary is not easy to describe, basically it is obviously where the water is flowing, and then up to a level that the water would flow in a flood. You need to get a good sense and feel for that in a river and twigs stuck in trees, flattened grass after a flood are usually a good guide as to where the river flows in a flood. If you stick within that boundary then you are in the river, If you go outside of that and climb up banks (that could be river protection banks) and the like then you could be on private land. The Waimak is easy as the river bed is that bit contained between the stop banks, for other rivers it is harder to tell. A fence line is also a good boundary to observe, obviously keep on the river side of a fence.
Next is behaviour. We must not think that a river bed is just a play area to try out how tough our trucks are, and hey look at me I am up here can you get up here, That is childish behaviour and exactly what is causing the problem with our Canterbury Rivers being damaged. That is unacceptable behaviour.
So it is not that you are an idiot, just we all need to learn where the actual boundaries lie, and what is and is not acceptable behaviour. Ripping up the landscape just to show I have more toys than you type of attitude is not going to help us look like reasonable respectable river users.
Cheers
Paul

access4WD wrote:Next is behaviour. We must not think that a river bed is just a play area to try out how tough our trucks are, and hey look at me I am up here can you get up here, That is childish behaviour and exactly what is causing the problem with our Canterbury Rivers being damaged. That is unacceptable behaviour.
So it is not that you are an idiot, just we all need to learn where the actual boundaries lie, and what is and is not acceptable behaviour. Ripping up the landscape just to show I have more toys than you type of attitude is not going to help us look like reasonable respectable river users.
Cheers
Paul

Paul that is exactly the behaviour that is prevelant in "all" clubs, I have been a member of the said club and incidentally did a trip up to the Waipara gorge just a couple of years ago, I happened to observe a member drive through the gorge and back again in so called "childish behaviour", these antics even made the cover of the next club magazine
on the way back (my wife driving) we followed members all over the banks between the gorge and the beach carrying on with these antics.
But sadly I got a little annoyed with some members of that club walking all round my truck....checking if it had a WOF, reg, and of course the coverted sticker......then walk off without even saying so much as a hello
I'm still a member of both ORE and another Canterbury club, I guess no one is perfect

access4WD wrote:Waipara River Update
The situation in the Waipara river is getting worse due to people recklessly using the river. I am very sad to report that it is getting overused, secondly it is getting abused ... Sadly some of the recent abusers have been identified as ‘Offroad Express’ supporters and or users. Guys it has to stop!
Paul

I certainly do not condone BrentC's position, think it a reasonable compromise that intending parties communicate such intent, share your concern for the area, and am more than a little angered by those who disrespect the Waipara gorge/river environment; however, I take substantial exception to the suggestion that "Offroad Express supporters" are implicated in such abuse. Some landowners are manipulating such misrepresentation to their own nefarious ends.

As a direct case in point, over the Xmas period I personally led a group of O.R.E. Assoc members and invited guests on an overnight camp at the gorge. Within short space of Stringers Bridge, our party was, without provocation other than our being on 'his river', verbally abused from clifftop by one inebriated, semi-literate, corpulent, landowner. And, despite on departure, leaving the Gorge area more pristine than on our arrival thanks to concientous litter removal, I later discovered that another landowner had made complaint of bank damage (existing), and major fire within riverbed (prior consent had been obtained from the Acting Chief Fire Officer, Hurunui District Council for a "small fire under strict conditions", and those intructions were respected entirely).

Do not presume to believe all you hear Paul, and if it is your desire to retain the respect and cooperation of this Association, do not perpetuate the inherent prejudice of misinformation.

Kevin Dougherty
P.R.O. Southern
O.R.E. 4x4 Assoc.

Hosehustler many thanks for both posts.
It is not an easy one to answer. But you are right our stance is to distance Combined and our member clubs from the hoon element. ORE Assn needs to do the same in my view.
It is not easy as our members are not saints, but we have to start and take a hard line somewhere. (all accusations valid or not must be taken on board) I know there are people out there wearing ORE stickers who create damage, equally I know that there are people out there with other club stickers who create damage.
I get continually knocked back because some one from one of our member clubs did something inappropriate on public land, we do not always get clear complaints, but the mere fact that some one complains even if it be a general complaint we need to act on it.
What we want is people to see a Club trip or convoy (I include ORE Assn in that ) or a single vehicle with a club sticker and KNOW and SAY they are they are the good guys.
It is a lofty goal but one we must achieved in my book.
Cheers
Paul

Cheers for that Paul. I think it is important to make the river boundarys clear where possible so that people stick to the river and dont go up on the banks where they arent meant to. Also im sure that there are river beds that we aren't ment to be in, this too is where there needs to be signs.

its all about being aware of the rules, the majority of the people will not go out of their way to find the rules out so you need to find a way of informing them

keep up the good work

Cheers Pete

P.S how do we get a representative invite to these meetings

I should have read this thread before I pm'ed Mike and Paul. I have asked that this very queston go on the table at the next combined clubs Inc meeting. I am very more then willing to put my hand up to rep the ORE assoscation on the combined clubs. I strongly feel the same as our VP on this matter and strongly echo his concerns about agendas.
Al

[quote="access4WD"]Hi Brent C
Simply to state “cut them downâ€

albundy wrote:

P.S how do we get a representative invite to these meetings

... I strongly feel the same as our VP on this matter and strongly echo his concerns about agendas.
Al

I have myself met directly with Rob Gerard of ECAN re access issues pertaining to O.R.E. Assoc members, and there has been a mutual commitment to build further on the quality working relationship established. I am entirely satisfied that Rob is a gentleman of exemplary character and integrity, who is genuinely committed to balancing his respective responsibilities to the Canterbury environment and those who recreate within it; indeed, I have asked whether he (or his ECAN representative) might contribute to our next club newsletter.

In the circumstance of Waipara Gorge access, my confidence in both Rob and Paul (Access Canterbury) is such that I have deemed it unnecessary to input in person at a late-entrant stage into round-table discussions with landowners and the crown. Moreover, my correspondence with the Hurunui District Council, Minister of Local Government, Minister of Police, Minister for the Environment, & Conservation Minister, has ensured that their respective offices will continue to diligently apprise developments.

As Paul has recorded, access issues relating to the Waipara Gorge/river areas are not 'black & white', rather present as one hundred and one shades of grey, with definitive title only made possible through expensive process of re-survey and hazard of legal contest. It is in everyones interest to work in partnership, and respect the environment in which we recreate.

There is little doubt that within Canterbury and the wider New Zealand community, there are those established clubs and club members who would seek to discredit the O.R.E. community, and by implication, the O.R.E. 4x4 Assoc - this is borne of equal parts self-interested motive, ignorance* (* it is human nature to fear that which we do not understand), and valid example(s) of concern. How cruel a blow was it then to those persons that the NZFWDA exorcised unjust prejudice and embraced/affliliated the ORE 4x4 Assoc!

In the not too distant future, I predict that there will be significant changes to land access in New Zealand, and like it or not, "clubs" (by virtue of their core schema) will enjoy preferential status.

Kevin Dougherty
P.R.O. Southern
O.R.E. 4x4 Assoc.

Its good to see offroadexpress actually doing what its meant to be doing - which is bringing all 4wders together whether they be president of such and such club, or joe hoon ripping the shit out of the environment

I wish people would actually just realise that offroadexpress is nothing more than a public forum for the 4wd community with members that consist of average joe farmer, city goers, teenagers, club members, ecan watchers, hoons, bogans, 4wd businesses - you name it offroadexpress has it or has had it.

I have sent out most likely over 300 stickers (more than a couple on a truck most times) and anyone can order them, club members through to hoons. So when something happens and its said that its offroadexpresses fault because a certain truck had an offroadexpress sticker on it is not actually that useful. All it means is that the truck in question uses offroadexpress for its 4wd content like the other 1800 4wders in nz that have passed through offroadexpress since going live. Its no different to a car which has a radio station sticker on it.

Ok so what does this tell me? If all the hoons and people who are wrecking our environment are 4wders and whether they be club members or joe public (who happen to access 4wd content in the only place they know in nz - offroadexpress) then surely instead of distancing yourselves in your clubs and finger pointing/hiding and saying "it wasn't us please don't lock the land up", get on the place where you will find them and educate them. It has to be the only way forward.

Now if everyone out there in the club world bitches and moans continuously about offroadexpress to the extent that it gets shut down, then in my mind you are only shooting yourselves in the foot, as you are taking the only (free) medium in which you can effectively communicate and educate the people(4wders) that are ruining for the rest of us It actually doesn't worry me at all if the clubs get their way as this is just my hobby like 4wding - so it really doesn't bother me if the clubs want to be immature and point fingers at offroadexpress because at the end of the day offroadexpress is nothing more than just a public median and no one can control its members - just like radio stations cant control their listeners.

The ORE 4x4 Association is something entirely different, has no control over the offroadexpress forums and if such behavior occurred in the association then naturally it would result in disciplinary measures.

Mike

Mike & Kevin
Both of your posts are excellent, and it proves we are really all dancing from the same song sheet. It is not Clubs vs anyone, But what Clubs do offer is a form of control and responsibility. As I have said Clubs members are just as bigger problem at times as anyone, and I and my peers spend as much time within our own ranks trying to get better accountability for actions. Clubs have rules regulations and therefore we can exercise some form of control, plus it allows us to network to work on issues and that is a good thing. As I have said we are not saints, but the move and thrust is to educate people within our ranks better, so that we do attain a higher goal, and that is leaving places better than we found them. Some Club members I also know are a bit Dr Jekle and Hyde, that is when they are on a club trip they behave one way and some times when out with mates they behave differently, that is why Kevin is correct, access is often given to Clubs and Clubs alone, then if the same people turned up at the farm to do the same trip often the land owner will say No. why? Because it is not an official Club trip.
My role however is only working for my member Clubs, so whilst I am happy to help with ORE I really am doing so outside of my brief. I am willing to help and on the Waipara Issue I am happy to represent everyone as much as I can. However I must say that I do use this forum to try and preach a little to the unconverted among our ranks so please good guys don’t take it personally, but one thing the ORE does have is this forum where people can exercise a view. My role is to try and help, and if I can in some way stop some one who may have the presence of mind to do a bit of a rip up, does not, then there is one more good guy we have converted over to think about their actions when using a vehicle out of doors.
We have no rights in our vehicles other than to drive in some places, and if we make a parallel on a public highway if you damage the road you are legally liable to repair it. The same applies out of doors as motor vehicle regulations apply to all areas where vehicles can be driven, so not only is it immoral and improper to rip up the countryside it is also illegal in that respect.
People who go on about birth rights and so forth are some what deluded in their own responsibility, sure we do fight for access, and we will challenge owners but it is no ones god given birth right to rip up any area, nor leave it worse than they found it. That attitude is only going to force more and more areas to be locked up.
Compromise and working through issues is how we get resolutions and that aspect is working well in the Waipara, so mutual understandings do work.
As far as hoons with stickers Mike, I think it is good that many people have Off Road Express stickers, what needs to be understood by people is to respect the brand, the challenge for Off road express in my view (and this is the seme challenge for Club members too) it to value that sticker and put your hand up and say “I am one of the good guys I show this sticker to the world to show I love the out of doors, I am a responsible outdoor recreation personâ€

Hi to all 4WDer's, Paul while I applaud you and your teams efforts for all recreation users I feel the argument about access and environmental damage has been going on for years and I believe will be still going on long after our vehicles have been recycled and sent back to there homelands.

As far as ECAN is concernd, I was involved with ECAN over an Oil spill into a river two years ago and after being interviewed on TV and an artical in the local paper I had a phone call from an ECAN member who's name has been mentioned in an earlier post telling me not to make statements to the media as it is easy to be misqouted and implying that I didn't have my facts right, and yet I was on the spot and know exactly what went on. I don't have a lot of faith or respect for ECAN.

AS far as damage to the environment involving 4WD's .

I have been on trips over the many years of my 4WDing with members of most clubs in Canterbury and Nelson area, and on every trip there has been damage to the environment of some sort, that is the nature of our sport. On one trip to the Westcoast of six 4WD's we drove track XXX that had not been driven for many years and by the time we had got six vehicles through we had created more damage than you could have done with a D10. On a trip back to the same track two years later we found it hard to find the track we had opend up and any sign of damage was gone.

As far as riverbeds go, On recent trips to the Waipara and Ashley rivers I have noticed far more damage to the river beds from riverbed quarrying than you could do with a life time of 4WDing and then there is the next big Fresh, that will alter the riverbed forever. On one section of the Waipara there used to be a stinky old mud hole that we all played in and gave a good rarkup, on looking for it a few months ago I found the area is now fenced off with a tempoary fence and the cocky has been grazing it, ----I wonder how much rent he is paying for it ? .

So lets not blame different groups or point the finger, lets all try to leave this world a better place for us being there.
NO one is going to do this for you,

DO IT YOURSELF,

FITZY.

Fitzy,
I know I am on a hiding to nothing, as you state in your opening paragraph.
But;
Basically your last paragraph says it all.

"So lets not blame different groups or point the finger, lets all try to leave this world a better place for us being there.
NO one is going to do this for you." end quote

Paul

SMOKEY wrote:As far as riverbeds go, On recent trips to the Waipara and Ashley rivers I have noticed far more damage to the river beds from riverbed quarrying than you could do with a life time of 4WDing .......

You are so right in this respect as there is now a shingle plant just up-stream of the SHW1 bridge, that will no doubt greate a "moonscape" similar to that as is visible downstream too.