Offroad-Express

I don't know if any of this bullshit will be any use to anyone in here because obviously the environment was completely different, but you never know. I'll pop bit's and pieces in this thread as my mistreated memory cells allow them to surface, feel free to add and comment.

Now I'll add here that a lot of what I put in here is coloured by a bunch of rules. Not exactly as was written in the book, just added to.... for emphasis!

1)No matter how strong you think it is, it WILL break! So you'd better KNOW where it's going to break otherwise it's going to bite you on the arse, and if you're dealing with wire rope, that usually means separating your arse end from the rest of you.
2)Don't ####### rush me, this will take as long as it will take.
3)If you don't do Maths, don't do recovery, every risk has to be calculated to several decimal places and a misplaced . will bite you on the arse (Ref rule 1)

Rule 4 isn't official but it's why we mad bastards do this shit. A successful "impossible" recovery is better than any drug out there and is almost as good as Sex!

Up the Bum No Babies!

Accessorise, Any woman will tell you, It's all about the accessories. Here are two that I consider essential.

A Weak link: This is like a strop or a rope or something else that you know the breaking strain of and that you don't mind breaking. So for instance if you have 6000 kgbs plasma rope you should also have say 4500 kgbs short strop that will break before the plasma. (Personally I like a piece of Hawser laid jute rope because it signals when it's going to break, strands start popping. For the same reason I never use Stainless wire rope, it gives no warning at all. Just the twang as it cuts yur ass from the rest of you. On our wreckers we had a selection of hand spliced wire strops that were disposable)(covers rule 1) This means that you know exactly where to put your backlash damper. For straight out heavy winch pulls, a shear pin plate is the best device especially if in a situation where a break in the haulline is an absolute no-no. (I'll throw up some pics and designs for one of these) Which brings us to item 2.

Backlash Damper: These can take a number of forms. Old tyre is good, some guys liked to cut half way around the circumference in the middle of the tread so that it would slip long ways over the rope after tension was put on. Personally I prefer to put it on before taking the strain and attaching it loosely to the haulline. My personal favourite tho is a canvas bucket with a long tail onto the handle. The tail is attached to your haulline with a loose loop knot like a bowline. The bucket you can fill with dirt or water or sand or whatever. Also really good when you have heavy objects in the line like shackles. Take the sting out of the shackle and the rest follows.(You can have several tails coming off the bucket. if you need. Not necessary to have a lot because your system will only break in one place at any one time and of course you obeyed rule 2 in any case.

An upside with the bucket is you can use it to carry water. Very useful when your Wrecker is an RL Bedford... or an International Scout....or any International. The other advantage is that the tail can be shoved in the empty bucket and tossed in the locker and it takes up bugger all room. Ours were about 20 litre size with about 4 metres of inch dia cordage tail, but for light vehicle size probably 8 litre would be good with some old written-off plasma or webstrap. All you're doing is dissipating the energy, the effect is to damp it not stop it dead.

They're also useful as a throw bag. If you have a wagon stuck in a fast flowing creek you can use it as a weight to throw a line to a person in the vehicle so they can pull a towline across without putting someone at risk in the current.

Probably any good canvas/cover shop could make one of these up. We used rope handles but web would be the thing now. With rope, the handles should go right round in pockets so that the bucket part isn't a stress member, but with web straps I should think that full stitch to the Canvas or ripstop or whatever should work. The only thing I probably wouldn't use is woven polyprop cloth. It's not that durable. Ripstop and 1 tonne web would work.

All that being said, one of the best ways to lessen backlash is to simply use blocks in the system. Invariably when a break happens everything just goes limp because you have different tensions and drags happening all through the system. Lash only happens when ALL the energy gets focused and released at a single point. With blocks in the system, every lay has different tension, tensions vary either side of a pulley, the weight of a block has a damping effect and so on and so on.

Next thing on the accessory list: Two blocks of wood... Actually it doesn't matter how many, we used to carry heaps, but if you're out with a bunch of peeps and everybody has one...

Designed as below


The best wood is old railway sleepers. They were made of of good Aussie hardwood; Jarra. Hard as an Aussie Netballer. five minutes with a chainsaw adding the design bits and you're good. I liked to fold a piece of 2 mm panel steel over the wedge, and a piece of 4mm aluminium down inside the "V" notch. Why? You'll see in a mo. Add to that an eyebolt to through the hole. 20 or 22 mm

OK now what to use them for?... Well pretty much anything that your fevered imagination can come up with, very versatile they are. (One thing that is common amongst ForBees is that there is a lot of fevered imaginings going on! But here are a couple of things to get you started.

1) Quick wheel anchor for when half tonne puddle jumper is pulling a Great White Whale up a hill. Dig a bite out of the front (or back depending which way your winch is pointing) of your wheels. Drive the wedge end of the block into the hole. Put in your eyebolt and take a chain from the eyebolt, over the "V" and hook the chain to chassis or bullbar or whatever. In good clay a shovel depth on each anchor should be good for about 3 tonne. (ie: about the same as a seriously lightened VX )
2) The obvious one is ramps when a ForBee driver is misinformed about his entry angles
3) As a lifting tool, ForBee is nose down rammed into a bank and you need to get nose up to get him moving. Usually I would use a sling here and a bow shackle. One block jammed or dug into the ground in centre. Sling around each hook/chassis/bully. Haul rope over the "V" attached to bow shackle. (Note I said BOW shackle, not "D". D shackles are pretty much only useful for fishing.) Pull on the haul rope and the shackle comes up to the V and then the block pivots on the point, lifting her out of the hole. (CAUTION: Tread lightly using this. A good idea if possible is put the spare wheel in front of the radiator. Things can suddenly progress quickly and a 6x8 hunk of Jarra is very unforgiving)

4) Ground anchor: Bury it deep, the deeper the better, hook your eyebolt (You did dig a slot to get to your eyebolt didn't you?) to your winch rope and pull to your hearts content. In Ngaroma clay a 1200 block won't be the weak point, even for Dixies Monster.

To make this lot work it is advisable to have chain. A couple of lengths of snig chain is worth having. The reason being is chain does not stretch. Sometimes there are parts of your recovery tackle that you don't want to give. Side belay on a wagon sideways off the side of a high ridge for instance However the chain MUST ALWAYS be the highest rated gear in your kit. Chains that let go can be like hand grenades with shrapnel going in all directions. Chain should have iso numbers stamped on the links. Only get from a reputable supplier such as Cookes or Paykels.

Finally sling these things across a couple of rocks and they make a pretty passable seat around the campfire.. Gotta be good.

has anyone actually been hurt from wire rope breaking, only reason i ask
is on that mythbusters show they did a test with a dead pig and worst they got was like severe case of rope burn????

i know i wouldn,t like to get hit by a 100mph wire rope at any time.
just curoius has there been documented cases

Their testing only had wire being cut cleanly. What happens when the attachment point breaks and the whole things goes like a projectile. I wouldn't want to be near that, anywhere!!!!!

tpft wrote:has anyone actually been hurt from wire rope breaking, only reason i ask
is on that mythbusters show they did a test with a dead pig and worst they got was like severe case of rope burn????

i know i wouldn,t like to get hit by a 100mph wire rope at any time.
just curoius has there been documented cases

Obviously the sort of stuff that I dealt with was with heavy rope, but yes just ask any guy who has worked in the forest hauling logs on a log skidder. There are many who can thank their bush canopies.

The mythbusters dudes would have to test a hell of a lot ropes, because different types of ropes behave differently and it's all about the dynamics of the situation. The most danger is short pulls where the energy involved will overcome the weight of the rope itself. If you're pulling at a hundred metres using inch rope they're right, it's just going to go kerplunk and drop to the ground. (Actually at a hundred metres with inch rope you would be struggling to take the sag out of the rope) With ForBees however you're generally working at short distances. Short distance and lots of energy.

Shock loading is the thing that does it. I was pulling a Bully out of a gully once . The operator was driving her out at the same time. The tractor got a bit of traction as it came up a bank enough to make the rope go slack then the tracks broke through the surface and she skidded back down the hill. 40 tonnes of tractor, 10 tonnes of wrecker. The front of the truck came off the ground and just about pulled up the anchors. However when the weak strop gave way the bang it made when it hit the back of the tractor was pretty loud. The other end was damped of course.

Basically it works like this, the more strands and the more lays the less twang. Pretty much the standard is what we call 7x7 (thats 7 wire 7 strand) and it gives progressively. The centre strand stretches a lot more than the outer strands. For ForBee winches probably the best is jute core. It's not as strong as steel core, but it's a lot more flexible and it will probably cope with abuse a bit better but it doesn't twang because the jute core acts as a damper. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about a number of different dynamics in a single system. Multiply those dynamics and the chances on them coming together for a simultaneous explosive failure are minimised.

However if you violently overload a rope ie suddenly applying several times the ropes breaking strain, (Picture log skidder going downhill at 40 odd k and the 5 tonne log on 12 mm rope behind catches on a stump) then yes it will twang, then you will thank the lord for your dampeners. The point is that you never know when that surprise is going to be dropped on you and the best thing is to be prepared

TJ wrote:Their testing only had wire being cut cleanly. What happens when the attachment point breaks and the whole things goes like a projectile. I wouldn't want to be near that, anywhere!!!!!

Well that's just stupid. Simple engineering. By cutting the rope all you are doing is progressively reducing the breaking strain of the rope. Of course it's not going to twang.

Is it heresy to say those guys are idiots? I saw one a while back about them getting into a safe using a thermic lance like someone did in a movie. They worked out that a thermic lance would be too slow. But they used this pathetic little toy thing. I've seen a thermic lance being used and they go through high grade stainless steel and concrete like butter, but that was decent sized one. They set it up to fail, seems like they did the same here.

So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

see his sig line

lilpigzuk wrote:

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

see his sig line

So a wrecker is a tow truck? A make/model of truck? A profession? I'm not 100% clear what a wrecker is, or does. Is it to do with logging? It doesn't appear to just be a standard tow truck like what you'd see picking your car up out of the average city carpark.

I'm just trying to figure out where yorick would have gained such vast experience about recovery.

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

A Wrecker is a nickname for a Recovery Vehicle..... I suppose on occasion we did pull them out in bits ...

Mark wrote:

lilpigzuk wrote:

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

see his sig line

So a wrecker is a tow truck? A make/model of truck? A profession? I'm not 100% clear what a wrecker is, or does. Is it to do with logging? It doesn't appear to just be a standard tow truck like what you'd see picking your car up out of the average city carpark.

I'm just trying to figure out where yorick would have gained such vast experience about recovery.

Actually I'm not sure as to whether the nickname isn't just an Army only thing. I haven't been involved with any heavy recovery stuff since I got out, so I couldn't tell you. However a Wrecker is a whole lot more than a "Towie" although that was part of the job, the difference was that the majority of our work was off-road and for that matter mostly in Waiouru. All the wagons in my sig and avatar I've done recovery on. Mostly on the Bedford, the 816 arrived toward the end of my stint and they were all referred to as "Wreckers".

Mark wrote:

lilpigzuk wrote:

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

see his sig line

So a wrecker is a tow truck? A make/model of truck? A profession? I'm not 100% clear what a wrecker is, or does. Is it to do with logging? It doesn't appear to just be a standard tow truck like what you'd see picking your car up out of the average city carpark.

I'm just trying to figure out where yorick would have gained such vast experience about recovery.

Think heavy army vehicles stuck. Somebody has to recover those and I believe thats what he used to do.

my grandad tells the story of his mate getting cut in half when a wire rope snapped while trying to recover a stuck tractor, no idea if its true or not i don't no anyone else old enough to ask. but its certainly enough to make me stand well back and take precaucions.
Be my guest if you want to claim its a myth but i won't be close enough to find out

mike wrote:

Mark wrote:

lilpigzuk wrote:

Mark wrote:So what's a "wrecker"? I assumed the thread was about vehicle parts until I started reading it

see his sig line

So a wrecker is a tow truck? A make/model of truck? A profession? I'm not 100% clear what a wrecker is, or does. Is it to do with logging? It doesn't appear to just be a standard tow truck like what you'd see picking your car up out of the average city carpark.

I'm just trying to figure out where yorick would have gained such vast experience about recovery.

Think heavy army vehicles stuck. Somebody has to recover those and I believe thats what he used to do.

Heh, if you got an Tank stuck in a swamp you could hardly call the local towie.

I've been lucky enough to see a "wreaker" crew in action it was after terror training down southland and I was out for a play on the motorbike they were useing one of the old bedford ones to pull a flash new mog out of a creek.... they had rope everywhere... at one stage they had the whole winch truck hanging on ropes!! (between the anchors and the truck they were winching)
Very impressive to watch when I read you were on one of the "wreaker" crews I went back and reread your posts please don't be shy of posting more stuff yorick

As for rope going bang.... after 15yrs logging (tractors dozer to normal people , skidders and haulers) I can tell you it does
from my experiance its the smaller diameter rope that goes the worst... strawline (rigging rope for the hauler) between 8-12mm would cut shrubs in half and can travel a lot further than you'd think when it goes... why we used to get a good distance away before giving the "hip ho" to the hauler
generally found swagged haul rope was the worst for snapping non swagged normal rope strands before it blows most times
Where it blows is on a kink or a crush... mainly from bad laying on the drum or too sharp a bend radi shackles and that sort of thing
Oh and from my experiance rope braking isn't really a risk so long as your not inline with it remember its trying to move in the fastest posible line towards whats pulling it
The big danger is "bite" this is when a triangle is formed when the rope is cought on something.... when it clears it will move so fast... thats what will cut ya, a good mate of mine lost his brother to this!!

Cheers Reece

wreakers is a yankee term still call heavy recovery trucks wreakers

De-Ranged wrote:I've been lucky enough to see a "wreaker" crew in action it was after terror training down southland and I was out for a play on the motorbike they were useing one of the old bedford ones to pull a flash new mog out of a creek.... they had rope everywhere... at one stage they had the whole winch truck hanging on ropes!! (between the anchors and the truck they were winching)
Very impressive to watch

Good to hear the old RLs were still being used. I'd give my right testicle to have one parked in my back yard. Some Spicer Axles underneath and a little Cummins up front would make it pretty damn usable I reckon.

when I read you were on one of the "wreaker" crews I went back and reread your posts please don't be shy of posting more stuff yorick

Cheers, will do. As I said, situations were different but some stuff crosses over. I mean for winch challenges and the like it'd be a waste of time, too slow. But for going somewhere solo wagon or short handed it could be useful.

As for rope going bang.... after 15yrs logging (tractors dozer to normal people , skidders and haulers) I can tell you it does
from my experiance its the smaller diameter rope that goes the worst... strawline (rigging rope for the hauler) between 8-12mm would cut shrubs in half and can travel a lot further than you'd think when it goes... why we used to get a good distance away before giving the "hip ho" to the hauler

Actually a year or so ago I was working for a company that was involved with the recovery of a Thunderbird hauler that got tossed off a transporter. It took them a day and a night to get it back up on the transporter. I would have paid money to have an 816 that day, just so I could have a play again.

generally found swagged haul rope was the worst for snapping non swagged normal rope strands before it blows most times
Where it blows is on a kink or a crush... mainly from bad laying on the drum or too sharp a bend radi shackles and that sort of thing
Oh and from my experiance rope braking isn't really a risk so long as your not inline with it remember its trying to move in the fastest posible line towards whats pulling it
The big danger is "bite" this is when a triangle is formed when the rope is cought on something.... when it clears it will move so fast...

Yep we used to call that a whip. Another reason you have to know where it's going to break otherwise you don't where the whip will crack

thats what will cut ya, a good mate of mine lost his brother to this!!

That's what make me wonder about these mythbuster dickheads, it's a bit of concern that people will take their bullshit as gospel. A couple of days on a Hauler Crew might change their minds!

Cheers
Yo

Many years ago...(1985-86) I too was a Recovery Mechanic RNZEME.
Was great fun pulling out stuck vehicles.Have driven both RL Bedford Recovery Truck & the M816.
The thing i liked about the M816 was its awesome exhaust brakes....there was a switch on the dash to turn it off & one....it really barked when you flicked it on.The trouble with them both was they were so damn slow...top speed of the Bedford was about 40 MPH....so we always left first to get somewhere & got there last.
The pic of the Bedford looks slightly different to the ones we had...perhaps its a pic of a British one rather than a kiwi one.

A wrecker recovers trucks not cars

tallsam66 wrote:Many years ago...(1985-86) I too was a Recovery Mechanic RNZEME.
Was great fun pulling out stuck vehicles.Have driven both RL Bedford Recovery Truck & the M816.

Ye Gods I'm amazed the old RLs were still going in '86. I finished in RF in 74 and stayed on in the TF till '80 tho I'd had a Corp change to engineers by then and was driving Transporters and Earthmoving gear.

The thing i liked about the M816 was its awesome exhaust brakes....there was a switch on the dash to turn it off & one....it really barked when you flicked it on.The trouble with them both was they were so damn slow...top speed of the Bedford was about 40 MPH....so we always left first to get somewhere & got there last.

Heh 40!! you had a fast one , At least the 816 could accelerate and it didn't worry too much about hills. Our RL was about 0 - 30 mph in 15 minutes I can't remember how fast the 816 went but it didn't matter cos it looked so horny with the rag top down.

The pic of the Bedford looks slightly different to the ones we had...perhaps its a pic of a British one rather than a kiwi one.

Yep you nailed it. I was sure I had a pic of one of them from way back, but couldn't find it. The one in the avatar is the one that's on display at the REME museum in the UK. As far as I can remember there seems to be a set of lockers missing along the back, in comparison to the Kiwi versions . The Scammell is also from the REME museum, but as far as I can remember it's identical to the one we had at Papakura. The Brit one tho has a 6 cyl Gardner, ours had a 5.

my father was reme in 1947 , and i had a look around the meuseum in 2002 cool place

coxsy wrote:my father was reme in 1947 , and i had a look around the meuseum in 2002 cool place

Lucky Bugger! It's up there on the top of my To-Do list. One day before I part this mortal coil

here's my cap badges

In 1986 our unit had the then new Unimogs...both the 1300 & 1800 but the wrecker & the Fitters ,Sstores Armourers vehicles etc were all RL Bedfords.
We also had an M806 ( which if i can remember correctly was a M113 )APC with a winch inside it & a small crane so we could change power packs in the field.
This was also used to sometimes snatch out stuck APC's....they used a massive snatch strap & it was incerdible to watch.An APC weighs 13 tonnes..was an impressive sight even tho we stood well back..usually about 50 metres & the guys in the vehicles always closed all the hatches as extremely damgerous.

coxsy wrote:here's my cap badges

Ha Cool, It's hard to tell but the one on the right looks like an Aussie Army RAEME badge and it looks about the same vintage as mine. Just spent an hour looking for the bloody thing but it's gone west somewheres in the last 30 odd years only managed to find an old engraved name tag with the badge embossed on it that they used to give us all. The left hand one is REME and I think has the George Crown so that would probably be pre 50's version. The crown on mine though was the same as the RAEME one so I presume that's the Queens Crown. I had my old corp belt up till some years ago, dunno where that went to.

tallsam66 wrote:In 1986 our unit had the then new Unimogs...both the 1300 & 1800 but the wrecker & the Fitters ,Sstores Armourers vehicles etc were all RL Bedfords.
We also had an M806 ( which if i can remember correctly was a M113 )APC with a winch inside it & a small crane so we could change power packs in the field.
This was also used to sometimes snatch out stuck APC's....they used a massive snatch strap & it was incerdible to watch.An APC weighs 13 tonnes..was an impressive sight even tho we stood well back..usually about 50 metres & the guys in the vehicles always closed all the hatches as extremely damgerous.

Heh yea, and they could wind up pretty quickly too I remember, the 6V53 Detroit two stroke they had in them had some boogy. They had a M113 fitters wagon at Waiouru wksps when I was there, but only the guys who were attached to QA-Wai/WEC squadron could drive it. I drove it once in a demo at an open day, but that one didn't have a winch and the HIAB was painted Civvy Safety Yellow, stuck out like a sore thumb , I pulled an M113 out of the Amphib training pond once that got drowned, Heh that was a laugh.

Anchor me, Anchor You.

If you're into serious recovery then these things are essential. If you were doing a hard core Solo or two wagon trip then these are for you. The ones in the drawing are smaller than what we used but no matter, the weights aren't the same either. I've on;y drawn in ten holes, however you can put as many or as few as you like depending on your needs ie LJ Zook or MobyToyota

These are designed to be made out of 8 or 10mm steel plate. The thickness is critical mainly for the end holes cos they're the ones that take the real load. The manufactured anchors we had actually had a thicker spine down the middle so if you're making your own truck sized ones then a piece of 50x10 flat welded the length isn't a silly idea. Reinforcing the holes with a collar isn't either. Overkill is good. The end holes should be second in your tackle only to the chain mentioned earlier. Everything should break before your anchor plate.

The holes are about 25 to 30 mm. Stakes are up to the designer, however I liked High tensile Hexagonal Rod, bent mild steel rod is a pain in the arse. You'll notice the eye in the top of the stake. Put another stake through that and give the stake in the ground a small twist and it will extract reasonably easily. In some types of soil you may need a couple of you or a purpose built extractor

If memory serves me, one 3 foot stake was rated for a half tonne pull in good clay Like that at Ngaroma Thats a rough calculation because you never really know what your subsoil is like. We worked on double. ie Calculate the total pull required, double it and that's how much anchor you put in.

The pointed end shape is done for a reason. So that you can easily use multiples as in the next pic. That's a herring bone anchor. Put a few of those in, calculate the total pull that can anchor and you'll see why that end eye has to be strong.

These plates I worked on being about 800 long, 200 wide and about 150 between the holes. The stakes about 600. But you can make them to suit your Wagon. Whatever suits your deck. The advantage of these is that they release slowly even when over loaded, but not designed for shock loading. Only steady winch pulls.

I've used a canvas and webbing version of this 4wding before was over 3m long
was a high country station owner who'd had it made specially so it could be used over tussuks rocks and uneven surfaces, said he'd used it to winch out his tractor when it was stuck to the axles

hey was just thinking if you had multiple steel versions of these and your wooden spikes how much weight of recovery gear did you guys carry that memory of the ole bedy hanging on the winch rope is starting to look alot more impressive

Cheers Reece

De-Ranged wrote:I've used a canvas and webbing version of this 4wding before was over 3m long
was a high country station owner who'd had it made specially so it could be used over tussuks rocks and uneven surfaces, said he'd used it to winch out his tractor when it was stuck to the axles

Now that sounds like a brilliant idea. One of the problems with these anchor plates (Besides the weight) was the fact you needed a flat surface. No problem out in the open but in cut-over Native it was a pain. No big enough trees, but no flat ground = lotsa spade work! Something like what you describe you could use as a tree protector as well. Hmmm sounds like some R&D is in order here. So what did your high country cocky's version look like?

hey was just thinking if you had multiple steel versions of these and your wooden spikes how much weight of recovery gear did you guys carry that memory of the ole bedy hanging on the winch rope is starting to look alot more impressive

Heh, it wasn't for no reason that we used to complain about the speed of the things. As Tallsam66 said in an earlier post, 40 mph was the best you were going to get in the old Beddys. There were also all the big blocks and pulleys that you needed for indirect pulls, those stakes weren't light and our plates had a lot more holes down each side so they were longer and so you had to carry more stakes. Basically it was geared for every eventuality.

Then of course there was the winch. I can't remember how much rope we used to carry, Sam might remember, but the winch with a full load of rope would've had to be on the bad side of half a tonne on it's own. All of this pulled along with a pissy little 300 inch 6.

The 816s were only just legal on the road. 17 tonne if memory serves with NO gear on board. If you had to lift a smashed up RL for a tow, then you were overloaded.